Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker discussion thread (*** now contains spoilers ***)

[Mome Rath]

I just started playing Fallen Order a few days ago, and Cal Kestis is a good all-around character to play (BD-1 is a new favorite droid) and the story line and graphics are great. Some of the future fans will be formed through the video games, and the lore expanded upon in that domain. With something like Star Wars, you now have an established set of story telling methods utilized and built upon... I don't know, I feel like the franchise is just as good as ever, perhaps better now with Disney+ backing it. I know I'm happy to be able to jump back into Clone Wars, and I also look forward to their next series so much more since Mandalorian was so fantastic.

 

[Brianstl]

I've posted some numbers already, but Jedi did not make more than Empire:

WORLDWIDE TOTAL:
ESB: $547,879,454
ROTJ: $475,347,111

ORIGINAL RELEASE ONLY (Worldwide):
ESB: $400,083,259
ROTJ: $374,593,074

Only in the domestic numbers did Jedi do better:

ORIGINAL RELEASE ONLY (Domestic):
ESB: $209,398,025
ROTJ: $252,583,617

Counting only the domestic totals though leaves a lot of the money on the table. It's too soon to know how ROS will stack up, but looking for patterns is pretty pointless. The movie has done exceedingly well by pretty much any metric.

Empire only made $181 million domestically in the movie's first run. It didn't pass $200 million domestically until it's second release in August of 1981. ROTJ made $252 million domestically in it first release. The numbers you are using are combing the totals for the 1981 and 1982 rereleases with the original run. So I will assume you international numbers include the 1981 and 1982 rerelease. Empire's all time internatiol box office take was $257,697,044. Jedi made more at the box office in it's original run.
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Wars-Ep-V-The-Empire-Strikes-Back#tab=box-office

https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Star-Wars-Ep-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi#tab=box-office

 

[jade1]

I think you also need to consider the world we live in now vs the 70/80's.
The movie industry is very different now, and there is so much competition for young adult eyes from all types of media.
It's a completely different world. All of the current Star Wars media is result of nostalgia by many. That was it's staying power. The new stuff might build on it, but it isn't nearly as likely to generate brand new fans to the brand.

Yep agreed. Capitalizing on nostalgia is a common practice. Spending TFA looking for Luke, then the final scene with Rey holding that long lost saber was so amazing. Just couldn't wait for TLJ and see what's next. Oh well he's a worthless old man.

But at that point they really needed the new cast and story to be amazing. That's where your example comes into play. It just a lot to expect New fans to rise to that level of interest these days.

I ended up liking RoS, mostly because it came across that we were wrong, didn't have animal abusers and child labor camps-and do care about nostalgic fans. Liked Rey a lot more when they decided to make her a Palpatine explaining why she's so powerful etc.

But still give the trilogy a C- at best.

 

[BrianL]

Just couldn't wait for TLJ and see what's next. Oh well he's a worthless old man.

Is that really what you saw in TLJ? I don't see it that way at all. He wasn't at all worthless and he proved that by the end of the film. You may as well say the same for Yoda or Obi-Wan. I think that's a very harsh way to interpret it.

 

[disneygirlsng]

....And probably drove away the highest amount of people who were already fans.

Just a terrible missed opportunity. The whole team in charge of making decision on the direction of this mess should be cleaning bathrooms at Galaxy's Edge.

I just will never understand how anybody could possibly have this negative of an opinion on this trilogy. I found it absolutely fantastic all the way through. It drew me into the series faaaaaaar more than either of the other 2 trilogies. And most of my friends/people I've talked to feel the same way. But I'm happy about that, makes everything so much more enjoyable. It's like some people just want to find a negative in every thing that doesn't go the way they want it to instead of just appreciating what was done.

 

[KaptKaveman]

You mean Kathleen Kennedy?

I guess so, I don't really pay attention to behind the scenes stuff but sure if that is who made these terrible decisions than yes. Have to be honest looking at her IMDB bio, she was involved in some of the most iconic movies of the 80s and 90s, so clearly at one point she knew how to "produce" good movies. Not sure what happened.

I just will never understand how anybody could possibly have this negative of an opinion on this trilogy. I found it absolutely fantastic all the way through. It drew me into the series faaaaaaar more than either of the other 2 trilogies. And most of my friends/people I've talked to feel the same way. But I'm happy about that, makes everything so much more enjoyable. It's like some people just want to find a negative in every thing that doesn't go the way they want it to instead of just appreciating what was done.

People like different things. I am glad that you enjoyed the sequel trilogy. Yes I went to the theatre on opening night of The Last Jedi excitedly anticipating all the negatives I could find. Now I will say I did watch Rise of Palpatine with very low expectations, again I don't feel it was as bad at TLJ but that is a very low bar. To each their own, but I think clearly the box office numbers show a franchise in a bit of trouble.

Is that really what you saw in TLJ? I don't see it that way at all. He wasn't at all worthless and he proved that by the end of the film. You may as wells ay the same for Yoda or Obi-Wan. I think that's a very harsh way to interpret it.

I saw a guy who contemplated killing his nephew and spent his days drinking green milk direct from the source rather than embracing his duty and responsibilities to oppose the first order but as I've said before maybe they showed a different movie in the theatre I was in.

If it is okay to love this sequel trilogy than it must be okay to hate it. People like what they like. I hate whipped cream most people don't, that doesn't mean I have to go guzzling it directly from the Rediwhip can at the grocery store right?

 

[jknezek]

Is that really what you saw in TLJ? I don't see it that way at all. He wasn't at all worthless and he proved that by the end of the film. You may as wells ay the same for Yoda or Obi-Wan. I think that's a very harsh way to interpret it.

It's a lot of what I saw as well. That's the thing about art, it can be interpreted different ways.

Yoda and Obi-Wan both answered the call and trained Luke. Obi-wan gave up his life to watch over Luke, rejecting other opportunities to help when you watch some of the cartoons, just to stay with Luke. Yoda never cut himself off from the Force. He found a place where he was balanced and could remain in the Force despite the darkest of times and be prepared to train a student when he or she showed up. He begged Luke to continue his training. To finish his training.

Luke shirked the call failing a mostly trained Ben and flat out refusing, if not getting mad or terrified, at Rey every time she tried to learn something in TLJ. He ran away from everyone and everything. When a student finally does show, he refuses to train her. And when she tries to leave with almost no training, he doesn't ask her to remain. He doesn't remain in the Force, he cuts himself off from it.

So yeah, that's what I saw from Rian Johnson's story. And I didn't like it. But if someone else saw something else, and enjoyed it, more power to them. It won't change what I saw.

 

[Leigh L]

Is that really what you saw in TLJ? I don't see it that way at all. He wasn't at all worthless and he proved that by the end of the film. You may as wells ay the same for Yoda or Obi-Wan. I think that's a very harsh way to interpret it.

I've been lurking this thread for a bit and spent last week reading it from the beginning now that I've seen RoS twice. Great discussion!!

I agree and think Luke did prove it by the end of the TLJ, but also felt it took time and unnecessary work to get him there. Personally, I was really disappointed by the way Luke was written in TLJ. Too much "comedy" (for lack of a better word) for his character and the writing seemed to stray off Luke's core qualities, attributes, personality - something. None of it sat right with me walking out of the theatre. I have wondered if JJ had done TLJ what would Luke's reaction have been to Rey's arrival with his lightsaber?

On the other hand, Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to always be written so consistently (with Ewan McG doing an amazing job bringing them backward).

I didn't hate TLJ, but it's definitely my least favorite of all of them

 

[BrianL]

It's a lot of what I saw as well. That's the thing about art, it can be interpreted different ways.

Yoda and Obi-Wan both answered the call and trained Luke. Obi-wan gave up his life to watch over Luke, rejecting other opportunities to help when you watch some of the cartoons, just to stay with Luke. Yoda never cut himself off from the Force. He found a place where he was balanced and could remain in the Force despite the darkest of times and be prepared to train a student when he or she showed up. He begged Luke to continue his training. To finish his training.

Luke shirked the call failing a mostly trained Ben and flat out refusing, if not getting mad or terrified, at Rey every time she tried to learn something in TLJ. He ran away from everyone and everything. When a student finally does show, he refuses to train her. And when she tries to leave with almost no training, he doesn't ask her to remain. He doesn't remain in the Force, he cuts himself off from it.

So yeah, that's what I saw from Rian Johnson's story. And I didn't like it. But if someone else saw something else, and enjoyed it, more power to them. It won't change what I saw.

But, "worthless?" That's a pretty dim view of things in my opinion and it could apply to anyone. Luke was where he needed to be - he doesn't try to train Rey, but he does try to teach her - to teach her to be careful with the very powerful forces that are out there that aren't always as benevolent as she might thing. In the end she taught him that just because there is potential for bad doesn't mean you should hide away from that and he proceeds to help his friends. So he spent a few years in exile? I don't see how that makes him worthless or betrays everything else he had accomplished.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

But, "worthless?" That's a pretty dim view of things in my opinion and it could apply to anyone. Luke was where he needed to be - he doesn't try to train Rey, but he does try to teach her - to teach her to be careful with the very powerful forces that are out there that aren't always as benevolent as she might thing. In the end she taught him that just because there is potential for bad doesn't mean you should hide away from that and he proceeds to help his friends. So he spent a few years in exile? I don't see how that makes him worthless or betrays everything else he had accomplished.

That is largely how I saw it and overall really liked the Luke story arc

That said I do also see the side that it took him too long to come around, that they could have shortened that element of the storyline and it been more effective (I think that is my overall take that while I like the story arc, some tweaks would have made it effective)

I mean, you can compare him to Yoda - went into excile by himself, not (at least shown) monitoring anything or watching over anyone. Someone shows up and initially hesitant to train ... does silly things as well/comedy character .... tells person who shows up about being scared of the dark side of the power they contain, and eventually come around and trian them. Just with Yoda, it felt like the pacing of that story arc was better in my mind

 

[jknezek]

Yoda was testing Luke. Luke flat out refused to train her. He didn't teach her, he tried to scare her away from becoming trained. I don't know. I just see it completely different. Rian Johnson's Luke... just really hurt that movie for me. I liked some of the rest of it, though I question much of the story. But the Luke arc... just no. Not for me.

I've seen TLJ 3 times. In theaters, once at home because I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a bad impression, and again the other day after RoS when my wife and in-laws and I all decided that TLJ can pretty much be skipped and you can do the trilogy as just 2 movies and it's more enjoyable for us. I don't dislike it more or less each time I watch, it just sits wrong with me. I don't hate it, I just don't think it's good or fits the trilogy. If I think of it as a random stand alone and disassociate the characters from the rest of canon it's entertaining in its own way I suppose.

 

[BrianL]

That is largely how I saw it and overall really liked the Luke story arc

That said I do also see the side that it took him too long to come around, that they could have shortened that element of the storyline and it been more effective (I think that is my overall take that while I like the story arc, some tweaks would have made it effective)

No, I totally do see the other side of it - but I took issue with the description of "worthless old man." That's very harsh! It's one thing to say he could've/should've done better and stayed in the fight, but he did do what he felt was best. He has seen The Force lead to too much pain and suffering. I will admit they could have fleshed that out a little better in the film rather than leaving it to the novels - that's something the whole Sequel Trilogy suffers from to some extent. It would have been a little more "earned" if they had done that.

 

[YesterDark]

Again I'll say it, the flow of the story from 7 to 8 to 9 is horrific. That's the biggest flaw in the whole trilogy. It's not competent in story telling at all. There are some themes and story beats that are good. The fall of Luke Skywalker is an interesting take and worthy of a story. It was executed with the precision and skill of a 3rd grader.

If you're going with the Fall of Luke. The whole story should have been the first movie. Luke should have been the primary star of the Ep 7. Not just a 30 second flash back scene in the second movie.

Then you weave in the whole Ben/Rey relationship and duality. That's actually interesting. Even the Palpatine arc is interesting if done correctly.

The problem is that it wasn't done well, wasn't planned, wasn't execute well at all. It was just a giant cluster.

Imagine if you had this story line through 3 movies, yeah fan fiction time for me:

Ep 7.

• 15-20 years after ROTJ
• Starts off Luke and Ren training, and what would eventually be the Knights of Ren (who are force sensative but can't wield the force, tie back to the dude in R1).
• You need a background plot that can be wrapped up in one movie. Maybe the New Republic is in trouble or something, pick some plot. Toss in Han and develop Poe's character as a teen/young 20 something. Think of a big skirmish type of battle where you introduce the New Order on the fringes of the Outer Rim or something. They win but they come back wounded. If you need to kill Han, he can die here in this battle.
• Luke saves the day with his padawan Ren. They tried to save Han, but failed. This kicks Luke off balance. If you still want to go with Ren being the son of Han/Leia you can make this the big kick to his turn to evil.
• Throughout the story pepper in Ren's anger issues, some whispers of something dark Luke can barely hear via the force. Have him worry.
• The culmination of the movie is not the victory of the New Republic is in trouble plot, but the burning of the new Jedi Temple and Ren killing people with the new Knights of Ren. Think of Anakin turning finally, but done so much better.

Ep 8.

• Starts off with Luke 10 years later
• The rise of the First Order has happened Ren is almost central bad guy with a really mean Thrawn type character in control of everything. Think Vader in Ep4 and how the empire guys kind of dismiss him a bit.
• Luke feels responsible.
• He's searching for a way to defeat Ren but you see Luke slide away from the light doing some borderline dark side stuff. He's lost his way.
• He's angry, he's terse. He kicks out Han and others from his life. Build some kind of plot of him searching for Snoke or whoever was whispering to Ren (replace snoke with a mysterious voice which has been Palp this whole time). But show him falling to the darkside.
• Introduce Rey, introduce Finn. You can do something similar how Poe/Finn/Rey all got together in TFA minus the Falcon being magically there. Poe and Finn are together instead of Poe disappearing. Finn is a redeemed force sensitive Stormtrooper.
• Tricky part is creating a central plot where you can have Rey confront Ren. You can do something like Rey/Finn/Poe/(Maybe Chewie?) are searching for Luke. Ren is searching for Luke because he feels like he can replace him as the new Dark Side master dude. As the trio searches for Luke, Ren finds Luke. They fight and Luke is hurt badly. Rey and team get their a bit late where Rey and Ren are then confronted with each other.
• Here's the tough part, you need to build a Rey backstory of who she is. The end of the movie reveal is how they are connected via the force. I don't have the brain power to think of this one yet. They fight culminating with Rey winning (like in TFA because Ren is hurt from his fight with luke) and Ren fleeing. Rey confront Luke.
• Tie in some central plot points where Palpatine isn't known yet but hints are popping out even more. You can tell this story through Luke's POV in the movie. He's hearing voices. Palpatine is trying to turn him again, but subtly and you don't know who it is.

Ep 9.

• Rise of Skywalker - literally.
• Luke's redemption arc.
• Palpatine Revealed
• New Republic vs. the First Order
• Big Space Battle.
• Big end battle of Palp/Ren vs. Luke Rey in some old Sith Temple.
• You can either have Ren being saved and turning on Palp (yay ROTJ redo) or losing and fleeing while Palp dies.

Fin.

That was easy. Shame Kennedy and JJ couldn't do this with a full time team of writers and money and Disney and Lucasfilm at their disposal.

 

[YesterDark]

Oh, and guess what. Rey and Ren survive and are interesting characters. Luke and Palpatine are gone/retired/whatever. You shed the skin of the old movies finally.

You can start a whole set of new stories with Rey and Ren (good and bad, or both good) and go make 10 more movies in the Star Wars universe. You've introduced people like Fin and the Knights of Ren who are force sensative.

What does this mean? You make a whole bunch of stand alone movies on Finn doing stuff and others like all the marvel stand alone movie series. Now their just not normal people with guns and ships. Their people with cool nearly-jedi like powers and reflexes. ... Like super heros.

 

[jknezek]

That was easy. Shame Kennedy and JJ couldn't do this with a full time team of writers and money and Disney and Lucasfilm at their disposal.

It would have made a good story, but it's not what Disney wanted. Way too much of the old characters. They wanted their own characters and as little of the OT characters as possible to both stoke the fan base and provide some final nostalgia. This new trilogy was about new characters, not about the OT ones as much as possible. So your idea was simply a non-starter.

 

[mcjaco]

I just re-watched Empire of Dreams on Disney+. Mark Hamill during his interview at the end of RoTJ, says, "wouldn't it be cool to see all the adventures Luke goes on after defeating Palpatine?"

Yes, Mark. It would have been. Or least touched on more in the past trilogy to understand his motivation, other than failing Ren's training, to shut himself off.

 

[Kennywood]

The "Firefly" geek in me was excited to find out that "Serenity" made a VERY brief cameo appearance in the film! When the DVD eventually comes out, I'll need to find that scene. I'll probably have to go frame-by-frame.

It's sort of like when R2D2 made a brief cameo appearance in the 2009 "Star Trek" film:

 

[YesterDark]

It would have made a good story, but it's not what Disney wanted. Way too much of the old characters. They wanted their own characters and as little of the OT characters as possible to both stoke the fan base and provide some final nostalgia. This new trilogy was about new characters, not about the OT ones as much as possible. So your idea was simply a non-starter.

Not too much of the old characters at all. It's nearly identical.

Poe/Finn/Rey are the backbone of the new story along with Ren. The only main holdover is Luke which everyone loves anyway. Han dies in the first movie. Leia doesn't need to play a central role at all. She can be just a background character. Chewbacca can be in this like he's in the real movies. Toss in some new droid if you want. BB8 is a fine character.

But this is all fiction in my brain so who cares. lol

 

[jade1]

Worthless old man, yea pretty much the feeling I got.

And that esp ruins the fact that Mark was the only "OLD" OT hero in decent enough shape to capitalize on physically.

His "Projected" fight with Kylo was Mark, not animated or CGI-he still looked great IMO.

Compare him to Ford who actually had "human" fights in TFA, Leia barley able to move, now we get a decrepit Lando just so we have an OT for RoS?

Mostly summarized below.

I saw a guy who contemplated killing his nephew and spent his days drinking green milk direct from the source rather than embracing his duty and responsibilities to oppose the first order but as I've said before maybe they showed a different movie in the theatre I was in.

It's a lot of what I saw as well. That's the thing about art, it can be interpreted different ways.

Yoda and Obi-Wan both answered the call and trained Luke. Obi-wan gave up his life to watch over Luke, rejecting other opportunities to help when you watch some of the cartoons, just to stay with Luke. Yoda never cut himself off from the Force. He found a place where he was balanced and could remain in the Force despite the darkest of times and be prepared to train a student when he or she showed up. He begged Luke to continue his training. To finish his training.

Luke shirked the call failing a mostly trained Ben and flat out refusing, if not getting mad or terrified, at Rey every time she tried to learn something in TLJ. He ran away from everyone and everything. When a student finally does show, he refuses to train her. And when she tries to leave with almost no training, he doesn't ask her to remain. He doesn't remain in the Force, he cuts himself off from it.

So yeah, that's what I saw from Rian Johnson's story. And I didn't like it. But if someone else saw something else, and enjoyed it, more power to them. It won't change what I saw.

I agree and think Luke did prove it by the end of the TLJ,

It wasn't crazy far off that he did come around somewhat the last 5 minutes of TLJ-but a 5 minute "hey look over here" while the brainiacs escape out the back-that's his entire postive contribution?

Per Rian Johnson:

1) Luke was the cause of Kylo Ren.

2) Kylo killed his own father Han, Luke didn't even care.

3) Luke sat in his protected cave while ship after ship ran out of gas in slow motion (like a dog chasing a cat on a day so hot they were both walking) and were blown to bits- resistance crew and all, until luckily somehow one last ship with minimal crew remaining, managed to land.

4) AND ONLY THEN he decides to help, by buying a measly 5 minutes of time while that group escaped-ONLY because Rey arrived with the Falcon?

5) AND DIED doing that? Wow big contribution.

but also felt it took time and unnecessary work to get him there. Personally, I was really disappointed by the way Luke was written in TLJ. Too much "comedy" (for lack of a better word) for his character and the writing seemed to stray off Luke's core qualities, attributes, personality - something. None of it sat right with me walking out of the theatre. I have wondered if JJ had done TLJ what would Luke's reaction have been to Rey's arrival with his lightsaber?
On the other hand, Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to always be written so consistently (with Ewan McG doing an amazing job bringing them backward).

Luke was where he needed to be

Safely tucked away while everybody died from what he caused?

Yoda was testing Luke. Luke flat out refused to train her. He didn't teach her, he tried to scare her away from becoming trained. I don't know. I just see it completely different. Rian Johnson's Luke... just really hurt that movie for me. I liked some of the rest of it, though I question much of the story. But the Luke arc... just no. Not for me.

I've seen TLJ 3 times. In theaters, once at home because I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a bad impression, and again the other day after RoS when my wife and in-laws and I all decided that TLJ can pretty much be skipped and you can do the trilogy as just 2 movies and it's more enjoyable for us. I don't dislike it more or less each time I watch, it just sits wrong with me. I don't hate it, I just don't think it's good or fits the trilogy. If I think of it as a random stand alone and disassociate the characters from the rest of canon it's entertaining in its own way I suppose.

The fall of Luke Skywalker is an interesting take and worthy of a story. It was executed with the precision and skill of a 3rd grader.
If you're going with the Fall of Luke. The whole story should have been the first movie. Luke should have been the primary star of the Ep 7. Not just a 30 second flash back scene in the second movie.

Yes that would have helped a lot IMO as well.

Then you weave in the whole Ben/Rey relationship and duality. That's actually interesting. Even the Palpatine arc is interesting if done correctly.

The problem is that it wasn't done well, wasn't planned, wasn't execute well at all. It was just a giant cluster.

Imagine if you had this story line through 3 movies, yeah fan fiction time for me:

Ep 7.

• 15-20 years after ROTJ
• Starts off Luke and Ren training, and what would eventually be the Knights of Ren (who are force sensative but can't wield the force, tie back to the dude in R1).
• You need a background plot that can be wrapped up in one movie. Maybe the New Republic is in trouble or something, pick some plot. Toss in Han and develop Poe's character as a teen/young 20 something. Think of a big skirmish type of battle where you introduce the New Order on the fringes of the Outer Rim or something. They win but they come back wounded. If you need to kill Han, he can die here in this battle.
• Luke saves the day with his padawan Ren. They tried to save Han, but failed. This kicks Luke off balance. If you still want to go with Ren being the son of Han/Leia you can make this the big kick to his turn to evil.
• Throughout the story pepper in Ren's anger issues, some whispers of something dark Luke can barely hear via the force. Have him worry.
• The culmination of the movie is not the victory of the New Republic is in trouble plot, but the burning of the new Jedi Temple and Ren killing people with the new Knights of Ren. Think of Anakin turning finally, but done so much better.

Ep 8.

• Starts off with Luke 10 years later
• The rise of the First Order has happened Ren is almost central bad guy with a really mean Thrawn type character in control of everything. Think Vader in Ep4 and how the empire guys kind of dismiss him a bit.
• Luke feels responsible.
• He's searching for a way to defeat Ren but you see Luke slide away from the light doing some borderline dark side stuff. He's lost his way.
• He's angry, he's terse. He kicks out Han and others from his life. Build some kind of plot of him searching for Snoke or whoever was whispering to Ren (replace snoke with a mysterious voice which has been Palp this whole time). But show him falling to the darkside.
• Introduce Rey, introduce Finn. You can do something similar how Poe/Finn/Rey all got together in TFA minus the Falcon being magically there. Poe and Finn are together instead of Poe disappearing. Finn is a redeemed force sensitive Stormtrooper.
• Tricky part is creating a central plot where you can have Rey confront Ren. You can do something like Rey/Finn/Poe/(Maybe Chewie?) are searching for Luke. Ren is searching for Luke because he feels like he can replace him as the new Dark Side master dude. As the trio searches for Luke, Ren finds Luke. They fight and Luke is hurt badly. Rey and team get their a bit late where Rey and Ren are then confronted with each other.
• Here's the tough part, you need to build a Rey backstory of who she is. The end of the movie reveal is how they are connected via the force. I don't have the brain power to think of this one yet. They fight culminating with Rey winning (like in TFA because Ren is hurt from his fight with luke) and Ren fleeing. Rey confront Luke.
• Tie in some central plot points where Palpatine isn't known yet but hints are popping out even more. You can tell this story through Luke's POV in the movie. He's hearing voices. Palpatine is trying to turn him again, but subtly and you don't know who it is.

Ep 9.

• Rise of Skywalker - literally.
• Luke's redemption arc.
• Palpatine Revealed
• New Republic vs. the First Order
• Big Space Battle.
• Big end battle of Palp/Ren vs. Luke Rey in some old Sith Temple.
• You can either have Ren being saved and turning on Palp (yay ROTJ redo) or losing and fleeing while Palp dies.

Fin.

That was easy. Shame Kennedy and JJ couldn't do this with a full time team of writers and money and Disney and Lucasfilm at their disposal.

I just re-watched Empire of Dreams on Disney+. Mark Hamill during his interview at the end of RoTJ, says, "wouldn't it be cool to see all the adventures Luke goes on after defeating Palpatine?"

Yes, Mark. It would have been. Or least touched on more in the past trilogy to understand his motivation, other than failing Ren's training, to shut himself off.

 

[BrianL]

Worthless old man, yea pretty much the feeling I got.

And that esp ruins the fact that Mark was the only "OLD" OT hero in decent enough shape to capitalize on physically.

His "Projected" fight with Kylo was Mark, not animated or CGI-he still looked great IMO.

Compare him to Ford who actually had "human" fights in TFA, Leia barley able to move, now we get a decrepit Lando just so we have an OT for RoS?

Well, it seems like you are taking issue with a lot of actor's age and the shape they are in. These guys are old - it happens. Lando was delightful in ROS, so what if he's showing his age a bit. The "Worthless old man" bit sounds kinda ageist if you ask me.

Look, Luke did what he did. I don't think he is responsible for Kylo Ren - Ben is responsible for his own decisions and actions and nobody can be blamed for that. Luke did have a moment of weakness, but he overcame it almost instantly. It seems like some want Luke to be so perfect and have no flaws and make no mistakes. If he were perfect, there wouldn't be any conflict or story to tell after ROTJ:

Luke Skywalker has brought peace to the Galaxy and effortlessly defeats every threat of evil that should rear its head. He always wins and always will. Then end.

He did what he felt was best. It's not that he didn't care if the First Order took over the Galaxy - he thought that the Jedi ways and The Force were MORE dangerous being on the field than off of it. Was that a correct assessment? Maybe not, but why does he have to always be correct. He made a call. I don't think it means he didn't care. He seemed to care plenty when he heard about Han's death - it's one of the things that spurred him to action. In the end he changed his opinion and embraced the future of The Force and, presumably, The Jedi.