Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[she who must read]

OK - I tried not to comment, I reaaallly did, but I cannot stop myself. I am a public school teacher (24 years) and a parent…so I have a thought or two on this topic.

Many things I have to say have been said (and said well, I might add) - so I will try to add my thoughts rather than repeat. I may not attain this goal (OK, I just finished, and I have repeated - I failed to achieve my goal). Feel free to not read…these are just my feelings. I am not telling you how you should feel…I am not judging, getting snarky, calling bull…just putting in my thoughts.

Here are my thoughts - if I thought my kids could make up the work they missed at school in an hour or two per day, there is no way on this green Earth I would send my kids to that school. If I thought I could do it better/faster - I would. Between the two of us, my husband and I could teach upper grade-level work, and my kids still go to a public school because they are learning at school. If I take them out for a vacation, I cannot imagine believing, in my heart, that they would not be missing anything. How could I justify sending my kids to a place where I think so little of the teachers/education on a daily basis? I have taken my kids out for trips (fun ones - no education intended!)…but I know they are missing material when they are gone. They had better be missing something important, or they are so at the wrong school. Why do I still take them on trips? I do because as their mom, I balance the gain (FUN!) and loss, and I decide. I accept the consequences for my choice - well, actually my kids do since they are the ones missing the work, right?

Should it be "illegal"? That is something to consider…

At this point, my kids can handle the missed work, BUT are there some kids who miss who cannot? YES! Are there parents who pull their kids out who are struggling and failing - YES! Would they be struggling and failing if they were at school more and their parents valued an education more than travel? I am not sure (no one can be - right?)…but maybe we should care enough to require that their parents get them to school to at least try to see if it helps? It is the student who pays the cost of the trip - the cost that matters in the long-run, I mean.

If I require the struggling/failing kids to attend, can I honestly say it is OK to miss for highly-achieving kids? Yikes - that does NOT sound like a sound policy. OK - so should I (a parent of two kids with all As in advanced class) give up my "missing school" trips to support the potential learning of all - hum…sounds like a public education where we consider all rather than just advanced kids. Hum….

I do not like the policy my school district has adopted for whatever reason - I want the freedom to decide when my kids attend? Home school is legal in our country - so are private schools (though many of these have attendance policies, too.) As a parent, I have the right to decide WHERE my kids attend. That is my right. I have the right to try to get on the school board, rally for change, support my ideas with evidence and factual data - and make my school district better for all…how awesome is that! One of the amazing aspects of living in this country - I have the freedom to choose, rally and fight for change. Do I have a right to put my kids/my belief system/values above all else because I value travel and the family time it offers…well, yes! Home school, on-line education, private school…so many choices! They are my children after all.

Now, back to lesson-planning, homework support, and planning of our next Disney vacation! Ahhh, I love it! BOG reservation? Will tonight be my lucky night? Here is hoping!

 

[monsterkitty]

Here's what I don't understand if our children are truly being educated.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest GPAs ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest SAT and ACT scores ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest rate ever having to take remedial Math and English classes because they aren't prepared.

Something is wrong there.

I have to laugh at this bolded sentence! My district went to a competency-based system 10 years ago. We no longer teach a child according to what grade they should be in based on age, like a traditional system. Instead, we teach the child on what level they're at for each subject. I teach middle school so I'll use this level to explain. A 12-13 year-old student is traditionally in 7th grade. We test each student to determine their actual learning level. For example, if that 7th grader reads on a 10th grade level, he is in a 10th grade reading class with students around his own age. That same student, however, is only at the 5th grade level for math, he will then be in a math class for that level. We still keep students housed in age-typical buildings, i.e. elementary is ages 5-11 and traditional grade k-5; middle school is 11-14, grades 6-8; and high school is 14-18 and grades 9-12. The difference is the student is placed in their current level according to a variety of data we collect and not in a grade based on age. Students know exactly what they need to do in order to pass a level (we call them levels, not grades) and when they show competency for every standard in a level they are passed to the next level. There is way more to our system but this is the jest of it.

Now, as for the bolded sentence: When we changed to this system 10 years ago we had many parents pull their kids and leave for other districts. My BIL and SIL took my 4 nieces and nephew and moved out of our district and to put them in "better" schools because they didn't like the system. (they never gave it a chance!) Every one of my nieces and nephews had to take remedial classes their first year in college, along with many of their friends. My district, with its "horrible competency-based system" has fewer kids who are required to take the remedial classes their freshman year of college.

Sorry that my post was way off topic!

 

[piccolopat]

I don't think its insane at all. if a professor did that, people would be screaming about how they pay all this tuition money and the professor isnt there. you want to vacation 24/7 find a school that has a flexible attendance policy. College classes are all voluntary at any time you can quit.

If someone wants to take their kid on holiday, pay the fine and go. Sorry but I find these attitudes the height of entitlements. schools, countries and jobs should all change there policy so people can go on vacations???

When did vacationing become an unalienable right??? life, liberty and vacation

Actually the quote is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To many people, Disney is their happy place!

 

[Colleen27]

For the same reasons we see here. Parents would start screaming about how little sally and Sam are some how going to not be " balanced" and how precious family time would be lost if kids went to school year round.

We've tried many Times in SJ and the number one resistors? parents who wouldn't be able to go to the Jersey shore or Disney. Number 2, teachers Unions

We have 2 in Philly, one is a private school, one is a charter school. kids go for 7 weeks then get a 10 day break ( i think, i can't remember) and then have the normal holidays

The way I've seen it done the number of school days is more or less the same (IIRC 190 instead of 186) and there is still a summer vacation, but it is 6 weeks instead of 12 and the remaining 6 weeks of time off are spread out throughout the year. So the amount of time off is the same and a lot of families love it because they do have a breadwinner in a seasonal industry (construction, marine services, and farming are all major industries here) so fall/winter/spring breaks are more suitable for travel than summer vacation. But others have expressed concern about the availability of childcare/camps over the breaks. Locally our teacher's union head is a supporter of the idea, but I'm not sure where the larger organization stands.

Around here the loudest opposition comes from sports boosters and the travel industry. Michigan actually has a travel-industry-backed law prohibiting public schools from starting before Labor Day because even start dates creeping into August cut into the flow of tourist dollars in the seasonal tourist towns. Year-round school would cut the season in half, and the spring/fall/winter breaks would mean more travel dollars flow to destinations outside of the state where the weather is better at those times of year. And the sports nuts worry about how a balanced/year-round schedule would impact traditional sports schedules.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Here's what I don't understand if our children are truly being educated.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest GPAs ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest SAT and ACT scores ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest rate ever having to take remedial Math and English classes because they aren't prepared.

Something is wrong there.

Because we insist on sending everyone to college these days even though it's really not appropriate for many of them.

 

[Colleen27]

Because we insist on sending everyone to college these days even though it's really not appropriate for many of them.

Yep. And because we're raising generations of good test-takers who aren't necessarily good learners or good thinkers. It is pretty pathetic when an 8yo can explain strategies for improving the odds of success on standardized tests, but that's where we're at these days.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Actually the quote is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To many people, Disney is their happy place!

And there are 165-185 (depending on district) out of school days per year during which one can "pursue happiness" and STILL achieve a perfect attendance award at school

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Amen! There are a few schools in our area that have gone to a year-round schedule and it is such a great idea IMO. It would really cut down on the number of families who can't manage to work around one break or another because they'd be spaced out throughout the year, and it would eliminate the summer backsliding academically. But between "That's how it has always been" and concerns over how sports schedules would be affected the idea never seems to catch on beyond the elem level. And implementing it piecemeal is really hard on families who have kids at more than one level because each school has a different break schedule.

I'm not sure anything would really improve to be honest. You'd still be stuck with specific windows & the low man on the pole isn't getting that fall break time off with his kids if it happens to coincide with hunting season. I have to admit, the idea of an October vacation sounds nice SOME of the time, but not sure it's worth giving up part of Summer.

Plus, for those of us who are far enough North to have real Winters, time off in say February sounds like kind of a drag. I honestly go out of my skull during Christmas break. It's usually too cold to enjoy any reasonbly priced beach location, Orlando is wall to wall people, the National Parks are frozen over. May as well go to work/school & save those days off for nicer weather

 

[Minniesgal]

I teach. Don't count me as "schools". Remember that most people who work in schools have ZERO say in education policy. (And I'm including voting in my ZERO, since our "pro-teacher" governor totally screwed us in the past few years)
But I agree with you 100%

By "schools" i actually mean those responsible for policy. I probably should have said "the education system". that is whay i said schools and not teachers as i meant those responsible for management (or should i say mis management)

And don't get me started on curriculum or exam policy.

I'm also a qualified teacher although i do not teach any longer.

 

[Minniesgal]

TH

Of course the child is the parent's and they can make the final decision.

But the school is the State's. And just like an employer, they can make their own rules. Just like they can make a dress code, they can decide what they will do when children do not attend.

Since the child is the parent's, the parents are completely in their right to make their own decisions for their child. Of course, those decisions need to be balanced against the consequences of that decision. And if the parents really don't like the rules of a certain school, the school is not forcing them to attend that particular school. Nobody is cracking a whip and saying "You have to attend RigidRule School." There are plenty of options for the parent to choose from. They can home school, they can go to a private school. But even with those options, there are going to be rules they have to follow.

What the parent cannot have is choosing a school with rules they don't like and then expecting the school to change their rules for them. That is having your cake and eating it too.

Yes but....

Education is a partnership between parent and school. Parents can like many of the school rules without agreeing with all. And in fact sometimes things are not well though out.

My daughter in Scotland went to a state school with a uniform policy which did not include a school coat. However, as they had no uniform coat they were not allowed to wear one during the day, the non uniform coat they wore from home has to be taken off on entering. The school was over capacity and some classes were in temporary huts a 5-10 minute walk away. When my daughter got screamed at by a teacher for putting on her none uniform coat to go outside in falling snow to these huts I certainly disagreed with school unform rules and got them changed.

Just because a school management decides something is so doesn't always mean it is the right decision or in the best interests of the pupils and that is where parents come in. If enough make a noise they get listened to.

I do not believe that just because you choose a school you should blanket accept all rules because hey do we really believe policy makers never get it wrong.

I think on this one they got it well wrong. Family is as important if not more important than school. Schoool lasts 13 years family a lifetime if you get it right.

 

[Minniesgal]

OK - I tried not to comment, I reaaallly did, but I cannot stop myself. I am a public school teacher (24 years) and a parent…so I have a thought or two on this topic.

Many things I have to say have been said (and said well, I might add) - so I will try to add my thoughts rather than repeat. I may not attain this goal (OK, I just finished, and I have repeated - I failed to achieve my goal). Feel free to not read…these are just my feelings. I am not telling you how you should feel…I am not judging, getting snarky, calling bull…just putting in my thoughts.

Here are my thoughts - if I thought my kids could make up the work they missed at school in an hour or two per day, there is no way on this green Earth I would send my kids to that school. If I thought I could do it better/faster - I would. Between the two of us, my husband and I could teach upper grade-level work, and my kids still go to a public school because they are learning at school. If I take them out for a vacation, I cannot imagine believing, in my heart, that they would not be missing anything. How could I justify sending my kids to a place where I think so little of the teachers/education on a daily basis? I have taken my kids out for trips (fun ones - no education intended!)…but I know they are missing material when they are gone. They had better be missing something important, or they are so at the wrong school. Why do I still take them on trips? I do because as their mom, I balance the gain (FUN!) and loss, and I decide. I accept the consequences for my choice - well, actually my kids do since they are the ones missing the work, right?


At this point, my kids can handle the missed work, BUT are there some kids who miss who cannot? YES! Are there parents who pull their kids out who are struggling and failing - YES! Would they be struggling and failing if they were at school more and their parents valued an education more than travel? I am not sure (no one can be - right?)…but maybe we should care enough to require that their parents get them to school to at least try to see if it helps? It is the student who pays the cost of the trip - the cost that matters in the long-run, I mean.

If I require the struggling/failing kids to attend, can I honestly say it is OK to miss for highly-achieving kids? Yikes - that does NOT sound like a sound policy. OK - so should I (a parent of two kids with all As in advanced class) give up my "missing school" trips to support the potential learning of all - hum…sounds like a public education where we consider all rather than just advanced kids. Hum….

Noone is saying that kids will not be missing anything when out for school for a week or two weeks vacation. What is being said is that although important things can be missed these can be caught up be working at it afterwards.

Kids who are struggling will still struggle whether they miss a week or not i still do not see a week away as life changing. Sure they might struggle a bit more when they get back but it isn't going to be the difference between coping and failing. A kids who is gonna fail will fail whether or not they have a week off jsut as a kid who is gonna be successful will manage either way.

Yes schoool is important, yes catching up after an absence is hard work, but it is not impossible and neither is it a big enough deal to single handedly make the difference between success and failure. I could put my hand on my heart and say I'm fairly sure i could have taken each of my kids out of school 1 week per year and and i don't believe it would make a difference to their overall results. Now if it were 4 weeks per term i'd be concerned, but 1 or 2 weeks work in a year can be caught up with a little effort and supervision from parents.

 

[sasywtch]

This was an interesting read and I did read every one. Many years ago, we took our kids out of the school the first week (they did attend the first few days). My now exH was a manager for a major soft drink company and got a free DL trip after Labor Day (guessing you can figure out which company now). My x ran the state fair and all major things in the area so going somewhere during the summer was pretty much out.

Could we have gone another time? Sure, but we didn't. I'll be brutally honest, we liked the shorter lines and they hadn't seen their dad much all summer. My kids were in the gifted program so it was easy for them to catch on. If they had trouble learning, I would have had a different mindset. We did quit when they got to high school.

School was 6 hours a day minus recesses and lunch, 5 hours. Every day they had either choir, library or some other non lecture activity so that cuts it down to 4 hours a day. When they went to school and myself also, every day for about 30 minutes we had either quiet reading or crafts. Now we are down to 3.5 hours of teacher lecture x 5 days is 17.5 hours a week with 30 students. 14 hour drive in the car, my child gets one on one going over work for that week. I wouldn't say that because my child missed school for a week and didn't miss anything that I should take them out of that school because that school is terrible. I believe one on one for 10 hours, one may learn more than being in a classroom all week. The only downside is the group type discussions which they would miss.

All of this totally changes when high school gets involved when you have labs and more group discussions. Most schools here have their weekly plan online and workbooks so honestly, no need to get advance work. My son has his PhD, going for principal and is currently a 5th grade teacher and gets vacation time.

If my kids were still in school, I'd still probably take them out for a week a year.

Edited to add, this was a good read for me as half of my relatives are from the UK. My mom never became a US citizen. Only 2 out of about 50 or so that I talk to over there have a degree whereas, in my little 6 person family over here where we took that elusive weekly vacation during the school year, I have 1 with a PhD in education/admin and 1 with a BA in business from a CA State University, 1 with an AA going toward a BA and one working on their AA. I think DL taught them more than they knew LOL

 

[sam_gordon]

I certainly disagreed with school unform rules and got them changed.

So I'm assuming you've tried to get your school's attendance policy changed? And yes, when you select a school (or a job, or a house in a HOA, or an apartment), you are agreeing to follow the "rules", whether you agree with them or not. As you suggested, if there's a rule you feel strong enough about you can work to change the rule. But to disobey the rule and then complain when you're held accountable isn't right IMO.

I don't feel like going back and quoting, but a couple pages ago, someone posted a letter from a parent who took his kid to the Boston Marathon. According to the letter, the child learned more in that week than he did over the entire year in school. Fine. Then home school him, go on a week long trip, and then he's ready to take whatever test to show he's learned the material and is ready to graduate.

 

[Minniesgal]

So I'm assuming you've tried to get your school's attendance policy changed? And yes, when you select a school (or a job, or a house in a HOA, or an apartment), you are agreeing to follow the "rules", whether you agree with them or not. As you suggested, if there's a rule you feel strong enough about you can work to change the rule. But to disobey the rule and then complain when you're held accountable isn't right IMO.

I don't feel like going back and quoting, but a couple pages ago, someone posted a letter from a parent who took his kid to the Boston Marathon. According to the letter, the child learned more in that week than he did over the entire year in school. Fine. Then home school him, go on a week long trip, and then he's ready to take whatever test to show he's learned the material and is ready to graduate.

I have never believed that rules should be followed blindly as it is impossible to write a set of rules which fit all situations

And yes when a school was damaging my daughters health by forcing her outside in the snow without a coat I refused to. Allow her to follow that rule and as I was right and the rule was silly we were successful in getting it changed

 

[gwynne]

TH

Yes but....

Education is a partnership between parent and school. Parents can like many of the school rules without agreeing with all. And in fact sometimes things are not well though out.

My daughter in Scotland went to a state school with a uniform policy which did not include a school coat. However, as they had no uniform coat they were not allowed to wear one during the day, the non uniform coat they wore from home has to be taken off on entering. The school was over capacity and some classes were in temporary huts a 5-10 minute walk away. When my daughter got screamed at by a teacher for putting on her none uniform coat to go outside in falling snow to these huts I certainly disagreed with school unform rules and got them changed.

Just because a school management decides something is so doesn't always mean it is the right decision or in the best interests of the pupils and that is where parents come in. If enough make a noise they get listened to.

I do not believe that just because you choose a school you should blanket accept all rules because hey do we really believe policy makers never get it wrong.

I think on this one they got it well wrong. Family is as important if not more important than school. Schoool lasts 13 years family a lifetime if you get it right.

Of course there is a world of difference between policies/rules that allow local discretion and policies/rules that are firm and are expected to be followed. Certainly the coat example is one of local discretion.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm not sure anything would really improve to be honest. You'd still be stuck with specific windows & the low man on the pole isn't getting that fall break time off with his kids if it happens to coincide with hunting season. I have to admit, the idea of an October vacation sounds nice SOME of the time, but not sure it's worth giving up part of Summer.

Plus, for those of us who are far enough North to have real Winters, time off in say February sounds like kind of a drag. I honestly go out of my skull during Christmas break. It's usually too cold to enjoy any reasonbly priced beach location, Orlando is wall to wall people, the National Parks are frozen over. May as well go to work/school & save those days off for nicer weather

True, but it would help folks in seasonal industries. Like I said, around here the big employers are construction, agriculture, and marine services - all fields that involve long hours in the summers and shorter hours or outright layoffs in the winter. I know winter vacations can be a drag, we've been doing it for a decade and there are only so many places that are kid-friendly, affordable, and enjoyable during the winter. And prices over Christmas break are insane nearly everywhere. But it is better than no vacation at all, which is the reality for families with a breadwinner in a seasonal industry if the schools have very strict attendance policies. And there's usually more variation from district to district with fall/winter/spring breaks than with summer so there would, in theory, be fewer employees competing for the same week off at those times.

And more importantly, it has huge educational benefits. So even if it doesn't improve the vacation situation for many people it would be worth it from an achievement standpoint. From the studies I've seen, the academic benefit of good attendance pales compared to the academic benefit of a balanced (year-round is sort of a misnomer, since it doesn't actually increase instructional time) school calendar. Maybe with the academic gains from doing away with the "summer slide", more schools could afford relax the draconian attendance rules a bit.

 

[BadPinkTink]

everyone is soo missing the point. This rule is set by the Government in the Uk , not individual schools or local authorities. The entire country is bound by this law. Schools in the UK follow the same academic calender, every school in the entire country has exactly the same term time and exactly the same holidays.

Every one is saying in the school my kids attend this happens, in my state that happens. Step back for one second and look at the bigger picture, where every school in the entire United States follows the same academic calendar and every school in the entire United States has exactly the same term time and exactly the same holidays.

Now add in the fact of all the industries and jobs and examples where PP have explained are unable for whatever reason to take vacation time during school holidays.

How would you feel now?

 

[barrett7890]

this is not correct. For a start the rule does not apply to Scotland, also all schools in the UK do not have exactly the same holidays. The summer holidays in Scotland start a good 3-4 weeks before the English schools, they also go back much earlier. Schools can also vary by up to a week in terms of when they start/stop in each country.

 

[SirDuff]

this is not correct. For a start the rule does not apply to Scotland, also all schools in the UK do not have exactly the same holidays. The summer holidays in Scotland start a good 3-4 weeks before the English schools, they also go back much earlier. Schools can also vary by up to a week in terms of when they start/stop in each country.

Agreed. I have many friends in the UK and their posts about last days and first days (and holiday times) definitely do not all occur at the exact same time.

 

[Ember]

As a new UK teacher, our holidays are:

- 5 1/2 weeks in the summer (end of July and August)
- 1 week at the end of October
- 2 weeks over Christmas
- 1 week in February
- 2 weeks over Easter (April/May)
- 1 week in June

So they are more spread out then when I taught in the U.S. and Canada. (I've also taught in Australia.)

I've always supported family time as a teacher, so having it regulated by law shook me a little. I'm not sure I agree with the level of government control. But, it is what it is.