The Running Thread - 2019

Since it appears @LSUlakes is not making an appearance this morning, I'll cover for him and throw out another question. Here's today's QOTD: what training plan do you use for your "A" race and why? Do you grab one online from Higdon or Galloway? Are you part of the @DopeyBadger crew? Do you have coach? Do you just wing it?

ATTQOTD: For the past 6 years, I've been coached by a friend of mine. I like the ease of having workouts magically appear in Training Peaks and getting the email every evening showing me what I need to do tomorrow and the day after. I also like having someone analyze my data and make adjustments based on what they see to help me maximize my training and minimize the chances for injury. It's why I have used Higdon's plans in the past - they're well tested and proven to get you to the start line upright and ready to go.

I currently sing it. I have thought about asking @DopeyBadger for a plan but I can't stay injury free long enough to implement the plan and I don't want to waste his time putting it together for me until I know I can follow through. We will see how this year goes.

A lot of you are mentioning @DopeyBadger ’s training plans. I am
About to run my first HM at the princess, which was basically a bucket list item. I have gone from zero running for the last 20 years to my long run being 10 miles this week and about 23 mi/wk. my long run is typically just under 10min/mi and I am
Shocked at how far I have come! When I started training I figured not walking was a good goal and then I would quit running and check it of the list. Well now I am hooked and I haven’t even done a race yet!

My concern/question now is what do I do next? I am considering signing up for the Dark Side but I don’t know what to do to maintain my fitness level without burning out and then what to do to hit a PR or two along the way with 5ks and 10ks. And dare I shoot for a time in a second HM or just stick with running being enough?

Any pointers would be great. I don’t have running friends and I am not on Facebook so I don’t know where to
Go for more help!

Thanks
Guys!

I didn't have any running friends when I first started either and there is ALOT of info out there about running. I was overwhelmed at first. So this is a great resource for sure. My question is, why are you afraid to get burnt out from running already?
 
Hi everyone, I'm hopping on this band wagon a few weeks late but better late than never, right? I used to participate in the Expedition Everest 5K events and loved the community feel of the threads, but then when I stopped I also let the running forums fall to the wayside.

Last year, I marked off a bucket list goal and ran the Disneyland Paris Half Marathon. My first HM. I followed a training plan that probably wasn't the best for me and didn't join any of the DIS discussions, so I think those are part of the reasons I wasn't overly thrilled with my final time. I swore it was a one and done deal.

:rotfl2:

However, for 2019 I'm registered for the Disneyland Paris Half again and also planning to do the Wine and Dine Half Marathon in November. I saw so many people in Paris with those shiny Castle to Chateau medals and wanted one for myself. How I went from not wanting to train for another half to committing to 2 HMs in a 6 week period, I don't know. I guess the lure of running away to Florida for a week in November was enough to erase the memory of all those Saturday morning long runs. :rotfl:
 
I didn't have any running friends when I first started either and there is ALOT of info out there about running. I was overwhelmed at first. So this is a great resource for sure. My question is, why are you afraid to get burnt out from running already?[/QUOTE]

Really that fear comes from reading online while trying to find info
About maintenance after a half. Also my friends think I am nuts to keep going!
 


I had a similar experience after doing PHM - went from basically no running to being hooked by race day.

I ended up signing up for then tinkerbell
Half, which was about 3 months after PHM - leveraged my fitness from PHM and PRd. After that, I just added a next goal race to keep training for, and another - one was a 10k, another was a 10 miler, and then another half.

I try to space them out so I don’t burn out, but always keep a longish race on the horizon (10k or longer) to keep me moving towards a goal. Sometimes the goal is finish or try a new distance or race location, other times it is to try for a time goal.

So what do you do in between races? Drop back a little in a training plan and build up again? Thank you
 
My question is, why are you afraid to get burnt out from running already?

Really that fear comes from reading online while trying to find info
About maintenance after a half. Also my friends think I am nuts to keep going!

So what do you do in between races? Drop back a little in a training plan and build up again? Thank you

First, you are your best friend and you know if, how much and why you keep running. There are plenty of people on this board that enjoy running and are glad to support other runners.

Personnally, I love planning my next races in advance. That is because, for me, the races are events that celebrate those training hours. Yes, I feel proud and it feeds my next training cycle. To me, the bling is also important, it is a consecration and a memory.

So I register to few races a year with different distances and goals: Tourism, family fun, time. I try to spread the long ones by 16 to 20 weeks so I can have a bit of recovery before jumping on the next plan which typically start with shorter training periods. In winter, I slow down because of the conditions and focus on cross-training a bit more.

How many times a week do you train? Is that part of being afraid of burning out? I run 3 times a week. I might add a 4th time if there is an occasion (like training DD or being on vacation).

Enjoy and welcome on this thread!
 
Here's today's QOTD: what training plan do you use for your "A" race and why? Do you grab one online from Higdon or Galloway? Are you part of the @DopeyBadger crew? Do you have coach? Do you just wing it?

I had a triathlon coach for a couple of years and her plans worked well for me, so I have learned to expropriate the best parts of those plans around a run-only plan. I know my body and what I can put it through to get results, and that is more valuable than any plan you can find on the internet or in a running magazine.

Great goal! I highly recommend doing your century as part of a group ride or event. Having people around you to ride with makes the miles pass more quickly, not to mention the fact that large group events also have aid stations every 15-20 miles. :)

Another plus for group riding is the drafting effect...higher speeds at lower efforts make for a quick ride :thumbsup2
 


QOTD: what training plan do you use for your "A" race and why? Do you grab one online from Higdon or Galloway? Are you part of the @DopeyBadger crew? Do you have coach? Do you just wing it?

The only distance I use a plan for normally is the full marathon and so far I've used Higdon plans. I am not 100% sure yet which plan I'll use for my next full (and another attempt to BQ) but right now I'm leading towards Daniels' Running Formula. I've switched to periodization and am working on long slow runs putting down an aerobic base. I will likely use the Primal Endurance periodization plans for this year but I don't really have an A race. I just want to get my half back below 1:30.

Mostly wing it.
I really cannot figure out how to vary pacing so any plan with ''easy a," "easy b," "HM pace" or what not is more than I can seem to cope with. All the variety I can deal with seems to be "Run X time or distance," "Run Y time or distance," or "Run X on a path with bigger hills." I used to think I would get better with varying pacing over time, but that does not seem to be true.

For my first 5 & 10Ks, I just went out and ran a few miles a few times a week without structure or tracking. I think it was a fine way to start. I got a random number in my head that I wanted to finish in, so I paid someone local to write me a plan and then proceeded to rearrange every single week to make it fit my life. I felt awful about not following the plan and it is one of the reasons I have not done it again.
For the half I was targeting 'just finish' so all the standard plans seemed overkill, and so I just tried to come close to a total weekly mileage and long run distance.

I think @DopeyBadger hit the nail on the head with effort. I was also never really good at the pace adjustments until I started to use my heart rate to indicate effort and started running different distances in heart rate ranges.
 
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So what do you do in between races? Drop back a little in a training plan and build up again? Thank you
So what I do between races, if it is a somewhat short turnaround or even if it is longer:
-I would probably not run for a week after a half or two weeks for a full (or if I did run during this time, very easy runs, and not too long).
-I would probably take my last training plan or one that I like, redo the dates so it ends on the new/next race, and pick up the schedule after my recovery week or two.
-Also, that first week back on the plan, if there are any speed workouts, I would probably change those to easy runs. (So maybe the first week that you are back on the plan, use the first week of the plan you have decided to use -to make sure they are easy, or allow you to continue to recover- and then skip ahead to where you should be in the plan.)

Hope this helps. :)
 
My concern/question now is what do I do next? I am considering signing up for the Dark Side but I don’t know what to do to maintain my fitness level without burning out and then what to do to hit a PR or two along the way with 5ks and 10ks. And dare I shoot for a time in a second HM or just stick with running being enough?

-Short Answer -

There are 6 weeks from the end of PHM to DS. If you want to consider both races as "A" races, then do something like a reverse taper design. This will allow a quick turnaround.

1/21 - Peak
1/28 - Medium
2/4 - Peak
2/11 - Taper
2/18 - PHM
2/25- Follow 2/18 week without the HM (exchange HM with a short 45-60 min easy run instead)
3/4- Follow 2/11 week
3/11- Follow 1/28 week
3/18- Follow 2/4 week
3/25- Follow 2/11 week
4/1- RACE

Keep in mind, it takes about 6-8 weeks for the body to really adapt to the stimulus of real training without a taper. So anything less than 8 weeks between races that includes appropriate recovery is unlikely to make huge gains between one race to the next. Although the earlier you are in your running journey, the more gains you're likely to see even with a short turnaround.

- Long Answer -

I like to view training in cycles.

-Microcycles are within training plans. They tend to last 4-6 weeks. Each microcycles has a unique focus for the training.
-Mesocycles are the training plan itself. They tend to be 2-4 microcycles, thus being usually around 12-18 weeks.
-Macrocycles are a stacking of multiple training plans on top of one another over the course of a year.

There are a few ways to approach a Mesocycle.

1) Race more and train less - An approach filled with races where you're always trying to run near "A" effort. This approach can work if one justifies that without a normal training routine, the gains made from run training are usually smaller.

2) Train more and race less - An approach filled with usually a single "A" race and possibly 0-2 "B" races along the way that are shorter in distance and may or may not be used as fitness assessments moreso than a true PR attempt. This approach tends to yield bigger gains in performance over the course of a single cycle.

3) Race more and Train more - An approach where a person attempts to train at a high level and concurrently attempts to race several times during a training plan at a high level. This is the riskiest approach because it contains the highest risk for injury.

Between option 1 and 2, neither is the "right" choice. It's a matter of preference and what your personal goal is for running. High lofty PR goals and you want them sooner rather than later - then go option 2. Prefer the enjoyment of doing more races over a short span and you're fine with slower incremental gains - then go option 1.

Next, you have to decide how to approach the next Mesocycle once you've had your "A" race occur. This would be where you're at right now (or post-PHM). I tend to evaluate the performance of the "A" race to decide what needs to happen next. Why did I succeed or fail to meet my "A" goal? What could I have done differently? What was my main deficiency in the last Mesocycle that could be improved upon? Answering these questions helps guide what to do during the next cycle. Additionally, deciding how your Mesocycle will be approached from a standpoint as seen above in the three main different options. In about 80% of cases that I deal with, it usually means more endurance work to continue to see the gains desired. Even the 5k is still 80-85% aerobic in nature. And I recently listened to a podcast where Tom Schwartz was claiming that according to his research runners are nearly 95% aerobic as a power source within 90 seconds of the start of the 5k. What's more endurance work? That tends to be your really slow running and a continued incremental increase in running volume.

The final consideration is the training load. The body works well in cycles. Which means once the Mesocycle is done, and your "A" race is completed, it's ideal to allow the body to recover. This helps continue a feedback loop in your body of stimulus, recovery, adaptation. If you jump back in too quickly from one training plan to the next and do so near the "middle/end" of the plan, you may find your training load stagnates if you try and hit the same "peak". This is when someone will start grinding themselves into the ground. Generally speaking, either the volume or the % intensity (within reason) needs to continue to rise throughout the training plan in order to continue to see gains and not lead to a stagnation. So I usually recommend 7 days off or completely easy following a HM (rule of thumb is 1 day off/easy for every 3k of "A" racing done). There might be a fear of losing fitness from taking that time off. But in my view and experience, fitness doesn't go away that quickly. If I take off 7 days completely, then train for the next 7-14 days at an appropriate level, then I'm almost always right back where I started. It's sometimes runners' fear of recovery/loss of fitness that holds them back the most from making the biggest gains from training.
 
ATTQOTD-training plans.

I used Galloway's plan for my first marathon. Winged it for a while and then started a DopeyBadger plan.
Years later I kept many elements of the DB plan and tweaked it. I've made gains but know I'm capable of better.

Right now I am 100% following a DB plan.
 
ATTQOTD: I don't have "A" races and I, generally speaking, hate racing for time, so I don't lol! I make my own plans that get me across a finish line, usually feeling strong and happy.

I also can't bear to think of running right now! That marathon cooked me good. I'm sure I'll get antsy eventually, and I have a half in late Feb., but I think I'm good with resting and a little yoga for another few days :)
 
ATTQOTD:
I also can't bear to think of running right now! That marathon cooked me good. I'm sure I'll get antsy eventually, and I have a half in late Feb., but I think I'm good with resting and a little yoga for another few days :)
HA! I am dying to run! Apparently I do not know what to do during my lunch hour other than work or run. Day 2 of freezing rain has me going stir crazy.
 
ATTQOTD: I don't have "A" races and I, generally speaking, hate racing for time, so I don't lol! I make my own plans that get me across a finish line, usually feeling strong and happy.

I also can't bear to think of running right now! That marathon cooked me good. I'm sure I'll get antsy eventually, and I have a half in late Feb., but I think I'm good with resting and a little yoga for another few days :)

HA! I am dying to run! Apparently I do not know what to do during my lunch hour other than work or run. Day 2 of freezing rain has me going stir crazy.

Right there with you. I haven't run in three weeks due to waiting for achilles to heal up. (Except for Monday, tested it out, got a little over 2 miles before I had to stop as my heel started to hurt). Driving me nuts, but don't want it to relapse.
 
Right there with you. I haven't run in three weeks due to waiting for achilles to heal up. (Except for Monday, tested it out, got a little over 2 miles before I had to stop as my heel started to hurt). Driving me nuts, but don't want it to relapse.
If it helps, my Achilles was cranky leading up to the marathon, but I rehabbed and babied it and, though a gazillion other things went wrong, I had NO issues there in my marathon! You'll get there; hang tight!
 
So what do you do in between races? Drop back a little in a training plan and build up again? Thank you

Yes - back off a bit, but maintain a solid base — and then try to pick-up at the right spot in whatever training plan applies!
 
Yet another substitute QOTD: if you could make one change to one race, what would it be? Asking Boston to modify their qualification times is off limits, but anything else is fair game. Want to institute RFID readers at Disney to prevent corral jumping? Want to give people a time penalty instead of a lap penalty for vomiting during the beer mile? Now's your chance.

ATTQOTD: I would add another medal to the ones given out at Comrades. Right now, the bronze medal is given to those who finish between 9 hours and 11 hours. I want to see a medal in the middle to recognize the additional effort it takes to finish in 9:01 vs 10:58. Right now, pride and self worth aside, if you know you can't finish under 9, there's no incentive from the race to finish any faster than 10:30 or so. Adding a medal for finishers between 9 and 10 hours would provide extra motivation to make that cut-off and get a different medal than the people coming in behind you.

P.S. @LSUlakes it's a good thing Parish started showing up in Houston this week or you'd owe me several for covering you the past few days. ;)
 
-Short Answer -

There are 6 weeks from the end of PHM to DS. If you want to consider both races as "A" races, then do something like a reverse taper design. This will allow a quick turnaround.

1/21 - Peak
1/28 - Medium
2/4 - Peak
2/11 - Taper
2/18 - PHM
2/25- Follow 2/18 week without the HM (exchange HM with a short 45-60 min easy run instead)
3/4- Follow 2/11 week
3/11- Follow 1/28 week
3/18- Follow 2/4 week
3/25- Follow 2/11 week
4/1- RACE

Keep in mind, it takes about 6-8 weeks for the body to really adapt to the stimulus of real training without a taper. So anything less than 8 weeks between races that includes appropriate recovery is unlikely to make huge gains between one race to the next. Although the earlier you are in your running journey, the more gains you're likely to see even with a short turnaround.

- Long Answer -

I like to view training in cycles.

-Microcycles are within training plans. They tend to last 4-6 weeks. Each microcycles has a unique focus for the training.
-Mesocycles are the training plan itself. They tend to be 2-4 microcycles, thus being usually around 12-18 weeks.
-Macrocycles are a stacking of multiple training plans on top of one another over the course of a year.

There are a few ways to approach a Mesocycle.

1) Race more and train less - An approach filled with races where you're always trying to run near "A" effort. This approach can work if one justifies that without a normal training routine, the gains made from run training are usually smaller.

2) Train more and race less - An approach filled with usually a single "A" race and possibly 0-2 "B" races along the way that are shorter in distance and may or may not be used as fitness assessments moreso than a true PR attempt. This approach tends to yield bigger gains in performance over the course of a single cycle.

3) Race more and Train more - An approach where a person attempts to train at a high level and concurrently attempts to race several times during a training plan at a high level. This is the riskiest approach because it contains the highest risk for injury.

Between option 1 and 2, neither is the "right" choice. It's a matter of preference and what your personal goal is for running. High lofty PR goals and you want them sooner rather than later - then go option 2. Prefer the enjoyment of doing more races over a short span and you're fine with slower incremental gains - then go option 1.

Next, you have to decide how to approach the next Mesocycle once you've had your "A" race occur. This would be where you're at right now (or post-PHM). I tend to evaluate the performance of the "A" race to decide what needs to happen next. Why did I succeed or fail to meet my "A" goal? What could I have done differently? What was my main deficiency in the last Mesocycle that could be improved upon? Answering these questions helps guide what to do during the next cycle. Additionally, deciding how your Mesocycle will be approached from a standpoint as seen above in the three main different options. In about 80% of cases that I deal with, it usually means more endurance work to continue to see the gains desired. Even the 5k is still 80-85% aerobic in nature. And I recently listened to a podcast where Tom Schwartz was claiming that according to his research runners are nearly 95% aerobic as a power source within 90 seconds of the start of the 5k. What's more endurance work? That tends to be your really slow running and a continued incremental increase in running volume.

The final consideration is the training load. The body works well in cycles. Which means once the Mesocycle is done, and your "A" race is completed, it's ideal to allow the body to recover. This helps continue a feedback loop in your body of stimulus, recovery, adaptation. If you jump back in too quickly from one training plan to the next and do so near the "middle/end" of the plan, you may find your training load stagnates if you try and hit the same "peak". This is when someone will start grinding themselves into the ground. Generally speaking, either the volume or the % intensity (within reason) needs to continue to rise throughout the training plan in order to continue to see gains and not lead to a stagnation. So I usually recommend 7 days off or completely easy following a HM (rule of thumb is 1 day off/easy for every 3k of "A" racing done). There might be a fear of losing fitness from taking that time off. But in my view and experience, fitness doesn't go away that quickly. If I take off 7 days completely, then train for the next 7-14 days at an appropriate level, then I'm almost always right back where I started. It's sometimes runners' fear of recovery/loss of fitness that holds them back the most from making the biggest gains from training.

Thanks so much! I feel so dumb because I meant I wanted to do wine and dine. Oops. So actually I will have a huge gap between races and want to continue to work on my performance in the meantime. I basically will have 8 months between them - which feels way too long - and I don’t want to go backwards! Would you recommend aiming for another HM in the middle of those months? I could do 3 cycles I guess of 12-14 weeks with a rest in between each
 
Mostly wing it.
I really cannot figure out how to vary pacing so any plan with ''easy a," "easy b," "HM pace" or what not is more than I can seem to cope with. All the variety I can deal with seems to be "Run X time or distance," "Run Y time or distance," or "Run X on a path with bigger hills." I used to think I would get better with varying pacing over time, but that does not seem to be true.

I've found that programming workouts into Garmin Connect, then downloading them onto my watch, really helped with pacing.

If I'm supposed to do 10 miles at something like 8:45, I would program in a workout in Garmin Connect that does 10 repeats of 1 mile, with pace maybe between 8:40 and 8:50. I then download that to my watch. The watch will then make different tones if I'm too fast or too slow compared to that range. I don't have to look at the watch, I just listen for the tones and slowly adjust. The reason I do it as 10 repeats of a mile, rather than one workout of 10 miles, is so that if one of the miles is really off while I'm working on the pace, I basically start fresh at the next mile boundary to try the pace again. I've done this for a number of years, and find that it has really helped me figure out what my paces should be, but I also don't have to stare at my watch face to get feedback

Here's and example of run in Garmin Connect

upload_2019-1-16_16-46-11.png
 

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