The Running Thread - 2021

[jmasgat]

Today's easy run was a balmy 10F, feels like -5F. But you know, with sun, and when the wind died down is was rather pleasant. The only other runner I saw was a guy in at least his 70's. So let's hear it for the "old folks" getting it done out there!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Today's easy run was a balmy 10F, feels like -5F. But you know, with sun, and when the wind died down is was rather pleasant.

That would be a whole lot of nope from me.

 

[Kerry1957]

Today's easy run was a balmy 10F, feels like -5F. But you know, with sun, and when the wind died down is was rather pleasant. The only other runner I saw was a guy in at least his 70's. So let's hear it for the "old folks" getting it done out there!

Last week I posted that there is no bad weather, just bad clothes. First thing this morning I put that to the test. I went out for a short neighborhood run here in Chicagoland; the temp was -8F with a real feel of -25F. I wore my coldest weather gear, and ran less than 2 miles just to say I did it, but was actually fine after the first half mile. I'm not in my 70's but I am in my 60's so us "old folks" are indeed getting it done.

I ran a mile in Kuwait a couple of years ago when the temp was 115F, so I now have a running temperature spread of 123 degrees. I think that John @FFigawi has run in even hotter than I have, and I'm sure many of you have run in colder, but the spread is a new "PR" for me.

 

[TheHamm]

Today's easy run was a balmy 10F, feels like -5F. But you know, with sun, and when the wind died down is was rather pleasant. The only other runner I saw was a guy in at least his 70's. So let's hear it for the "old folks" getting it done out there!

Kudos!

my upper cheeks and where my hat doesn’t quite meet my glasses ended up red, windburned, and cracked last week. my kids thought it the most hilarious thing and it was questioned by coworkers viewing me on their tiny laptop screen.

I broke down and used last year’s unspent vacation money and bought a treadmill which I will assemble and wedge between the furnace and the drier while not watching sports ball today.

 

[PrincessMickey]

It feels like forever since I popped in here and posted. I had a bout with covid in Nov/Dec. It was slow building back up, a good month for my slow easy short runs to feel somewhat normal. If I try to run real fast my lungs feels it but so far that’s the only long term issue I have. And now I have some ambitious goals and planning on my first ultra, a 50k in June! I’ll have lots of questions for all you experts in the coming months. For now I’m exciting to be getting back into the swing of things and having new goals!

 

[PrincessMickey]

@shellott-hill @dis_or_dat @GreatLakes ........Thanks for your comments. I had the workout programmed on my Garmin, it's really a matter of the Vivoactive 3 cues. It is a watch that has no audible cues, only haptic, and the level of vibration is not always strong enough to be felt. I'll have to see if there's a way to have a very large font single screen with current pace--then it's just a matter of how accurate that live pacing is. Probably need to approach the interval as a ramp up instead of a step-increase in speed.

@DopeyBadger....what say you?

Not sure it will help any. It I have a Vivoactive 3 as well. My biggest complaint is not having those audible cues. I create the workout in the app. From Garmin IQ I downloaded the Dozen Run data field and configured it so I can see lap pace fairly easily. Another thing that helps me, especially when having to wear long sleeves is I found a shirt that has a hole for the watch so I can have the sleeves all the way down and still see the watch.

 

[FFigawi]

Last week I posted that there is no bad weather, just bad clothes. First thing this morning I put that to the test. I went out for a short neighborhood run here in Chicagoland; the temp was -8F with a real feel of -25F. I wore my coldest weather gear, and ran less than 2 miles just to say I did it, but was actually fine after the first half mile. I'm not in my 70's but I am in my 60's so us "old folks" are indeed getting it done.

I ran a mile in Kuwait a couple of years ago when the temp was 115F, so I now have a running temperature spread of 123 degrees. I think that John @FFigawi has run in even hotter than I have, and I'm sure many of you have run in colder, but the spread is a new "PR" for me.

My spread is about the same as yours. Coldest was Russia in -15F (Russia got much colder, but I had to draw the line somewhere. Usually went skiing below -15 instead), warmest was Iraq at 118. Pretty sure the hot run was far more miserable than the cold one.

 

[Grabnar]

A question for you more experienced runners:

I've just about finished my 10K/Half Marathon training with my race either being this week (or next week if it gets too cold for my Texan blood).

I want to start Marathon or Dopey training for Marathon weekend 2022, but the program is only 20ish weeks. What do I do to keep up fitness between then and now? Do I work on one of the Higdon base building plans, or just alternate a few weeks on my current training plan? Any advice is appreciated

 

[Kerry1957]

A question for you more experienced runners:

I've just about finished my 10K/Half Marathon training with my race either being this week (or next week if it gets too cold for my Texan blood).

I want to start Marathon or Dopey training for Marathon weekend 2022, but the program is only 20ish weeks. What do I do to keep up fitness between then and now? Do I work on one of the Higdon base building plans, or just alternate a few weeks on my current training plan? Any advice is appreciated

Grab some popcorn, relax, and wait for @DopeyBadger to hopefully respond. He will give you sound, practical, science-based suggestions.

 

[DopeyBadger]

A question for you more experienced runners:

I've just about finished my 10K/Half Marathon training with my race either being this week (or next week if it gets too cold for my Texan blood).

I want to start Marathon or Dopey training for Marathon weekend 2022, but the program is only 20ish weeks. What do I do to keep up fitness between then and now? Do I work on one of the Higdon base building plans, or just alternate a few weeks on my current training plan? Any advice is appreciated

Alright, so marathon weekend is probably the weekend of 1/6/22-1/9/22. So a 20 week training plan would start around 8/22/21. I'll assume you choose to race the following week (2/20-2/21). So that leaves you with 26 weeks between now and the start of your marathon training plan. Too long to be a single plan, and really close to being too short for two plans. So a little bit of an awkward timing. Since the marathon plan is 20 weeks (which is on the long side), then I'm thinking having a 1 week break off from running leading into it will do you some good. So the week of 8/15/21 is off. Down to 25 weeks to go. For what more specifically to do during those 25 weeks, I'd want to know the following:

1) What is your "A" goal?
2) What are some of your other running goals?
3) What are your lifetime PRs?
4) What are all of your race times in the last year? If any of the races had extenuating circumstances (weather, sick, super hilly, etc.) as to why they are not a good judge of your fitness please include that information as well.
11) Why do you enjoy running? What is your motivation to run?
12) Why have you chosen the goals you've chosen?
16) What other training plans have you used in the past?
20) Most importantly, what is your upcoming race schedule? What/when is your next "A" goal race that you want to focus your training towards?

These are a subset of my normal 20 questions, but are more specifically aimed towards the question you're asking.

 

[GreatLakes]

A question for you more experienced runners:

I've just about finished my 10K/Half Marathon training with my race either being this week (or next week if it gets too cold for my Texan blood).

I want to start Marathon or Dopey training for Marathon weekend 2022, but the program is only 20ish weeks. What do I do to keep up fitness between then and now? Do I work on one of the Higdon base building plans, or just alternate a few weeks on my current training plan? Any advice is appreciated

As a general rule most people don't do enough aerobic base training. If you have a long break between goal races I suggest a lot of long, slow miles. When you start a plan and bring actual workouts back that base will help you.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Last week I posted that there is no bad weather, just bad clothes. First thing this morning I put that to the test. I went out for a short neighborhood run here in Chicagoland; the temp was -8F with a real feel of -25F. I wore my coldest weather gear, and ran less than 2 miles just to say I did it, but was actually fine after the first half mile. I'm not in my 70's but I am in my 60's so us "old folks" are indeed getting it done.

I ran a mile in Kuwait a couple of years ago when the temp was 115F, so I now have a running temperature spread of 123 degrees. I think that John @FFigawi has run in even hotter than I have, and I'm sure many of you have run in colder, but the spread is a new "PR" for me.

Coldest was yesterday's -33F windchill for 9.2 miles (75 min).
My warmest was 95F with a dew point of 82F for a T+D of 177 in June 2018 for 5.9 miles (55 min). The "feels like" was 119.

I'd take the cold day over the warm day 100 out of 100 times.

 

[PrincessV]

Temp spreads? I'll skip my years Up North and go only with living in FL... coldest was 26 with a Feels Like in the teens, hottest was 103 with a Feels Like of 112. So a spread of 77/94ish. Not as extreme as some... but mine's all in one location, lol!

 

[Grabnar]

@DopeyBadger

1. What is your "A" goal?
   1. I'd like to run full Dopey in 2022. Failing that, I'd at least like to walk/jog the 5k/10k/half and run the marathon.
2. What are some of your other running goals?
   1. Run a half marathon below 2:10. Other than that, distance is more important to me than speed; I'm not particularly interested in PR's from a speed perspective, I just want to cover the distance.
3. What are your lifetime PRs?
   1. 5K - 26:18
   2. 10K - 56:46
   3. 1/2 M - 2:38:12
4. What are all of your race times in the last year? If any of the races had extenuating circumstances (weather, sick, super hilly, etc.) as to why they are not a good judge of your fitness please include that information as well.
   1. See above. I think the 5K and 1/2M are representative, I'm pretty sure I can beat the 10K as the weather was very hot/humid (Sept in Houston) when I ran that.
5. Why do you enjoy running? What is your motivation to run?
   1. I like the meditative aspect, time to myself, and the way that I feel during/after a run. I want to be/stay healthy and prove to myself that I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
6. Why have you chosen the goals you've chosen?
   1. I'll be 28 in Dec this year and want to do the Dopey before I turn 30. This is the fittest that I've been since HS, and I'm able to run more now than I did then.
7. What other training plans have you used in the past?
   1. Couch to 5K, Bridge to 10K, then a combination of the Higdon/Galloway 1/2 marathon & Princess Challenge plans. Next I'm looking at the Higdon Dopey plan, or starting midway on the Galloway, though they're remarkably similar.
8. Most importantly, what is your upcoming race schedule? What/when is your next "A" goal race that you want to focus your training towards?
   1. Princess Challenge in the next week or two, then MW2022 is the next that I have on the schedule. There isn't much of anything else at my level here in TX after May, and I don't think I'll feel comfortable running anything in person before then.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger

1. What is your "A" goal?
   1. I'd like to run full Dopey in 2022. Failing that, I'd at least like to walk/jog the 5k/10k/half and run the marathon.
2. What are some of your other running goals?
   1. Run a half marathon below 2:10. Other than that, distance is more important to me than speed; I'm not particularly interested in PR's from a speed perspective, I just want to cover the distance.
3. What are your lifetime PRs?
   1. 5K - 26:18
   2. 10K - 56:46
   3. 1/2 M - 2:38:12
4. What are all of your race times in the last year? If any of the races had extenuating circumstances (weather, sick, super hilly, etc.) as to why they are not a good judge of your fitness please include that information as well.
   1. See above. I think the 5K and 1/2M are representative, I'm pretty sure I can beat the 10K as the weather was very hot/humid (Sept in Houston) when I ran that.
5. Why do you enjoy running? What is your motivation to run?
   1. I like the meditative aspect, time to myself, and the way that I feel during/after a run. I want to be/stay healthy and prove to myself that I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
6. Why have you chosen the goals you've chosen?
   1. I'll be 28 in Dec this year and want to do the Dopey before I turn 30. This is the fittest that I've been since HS, and I'm able to run more now than I did then.
7. What other training plans have you used in the past?
   1. Couch to 5K, Bridge to 10K, then a combination of the Higdon/Galloway 1/2 marathon & Princess Challenge plans. Next I'm looking at the Higdon Dopey plan, or starting midway on the Galloway, though they're remarkably similar.
8. Most importantly, what is your upcoming race schedule? What/when is your next "A" goal race that you want to focus your training towards?
   1. Princess Challenge in the next week or two, then MW2022 is the next that I have on the schedule. There isn't much of anything else at my level here in TX after May, and I don't think I'll feel comfortable running anything in person before then.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out

Alright, so I calculate the following estimated race times and training paces:







It sounds like you're fairly new to endurance running. So the drop off between your 5k/10k times and your HM time isn't surprising (it's true for many). In order to hit the estimated 2:01 HM time, then you just need more endurance work. You don't really need any speed work because your speed is already where your "B" goal is. So that helps guide what you should do for the next few months. If you had more speed oriented goals, then I'd suggest some more speed type runs.

Alright, so the Higdon Dopey plan is 18 weeks. So that changes things a bit. Dopey training starts on 9/6/21. With the one week off leading into it, that means the training prior ends 8/28-8/29. That leaves 27 weeks between 2/22 to 8/29.

I'll throw one thing out there about the Higdon and Galloway Dopey plans. The long runs based on your fitness starting in Week 1 would be 136 minutes (13 miles) and caps at 3.5 hrs (20 miles). I personally don't like to see long runs beyond 150 minutes unless you're willing to slow down the long run pace even further than the 10:29 min/mile scheduled above. I don't really think they're necessary and may cause more harm than good.

The Dopey Higdon Week 1 starts off at 27 miles (or an estimated 4:50 hrs). The end of the Winter Higdon plan peaks at 4:20 hrs. So that's a good bridge between the two, but keeps the overall load spread out over 5 days per week. That plan is 13 weeks. So you're missing about 14 weeks. I think you do the Winter plan again before that, except you cut out the Monday run and drop the Saturday run to 80% of listed.

https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/more-training/winter-training/
So in summary:

Plan 1 - Higdon Winter. Drop Monday. Make Saturday 80% of listed. 4 days per week.
Plan 2 - Higdon Winter as written. 5 days per week.
Plan 3 - Higdon Dopey. 4/5 days per week with a bigger time commitment mid-week and weekend.

That should cover the majority of the year. It also keeps things relatively easy during the brutal Texas summer. Thoughts?

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger

1. What is your "A" goal?
   1. I'd like to run full Dopey in 2022. Failing that, I'd at least like to walk/jog the 5k/10k/half and run the marathon.
2. What are some of your other running goals?
   1. Run a half marathon below 2:10. Other than that, distance is more important to me than speed; I'm not particularly interested in PR's from a speed perspective, I just want to cover the distance.
3. What are your lifetime PRs?
   1. 5K - 26:18
   2. 10K - 56:46
   3. 1/2 M - 2:38:12
4. What are all of your race times in the last year? If any of the races had extenuating circumstances (weather, sick, super hilly, etc.) as to why they are not a good judge of your fitness please include that information as well.
   1. See above. I think the 5K and 1/2M are representative, I'm pretty sure I can beat the 10K as the weather was very hot/humid (Sept in Houston) when I ran that.
5. Why do you enjoy running? What is your motivation to run?
   1. I like the meditative aspect, time to myself, and the way that I feel during/after a run. I want to be/stay healthy and prove to myself that I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
6. Why have you chosen the goals you've chosen?
   1. I'll be 28 in Dec this year and want to do the Dopey before I turn 30. This is the fittest that I've been since HS, and I'm able to run more now than I did then.
7. What other training plans have you used in the past?
   1. Couch to 5K, Bridge to 10K, then a combination of the Higdon/Galloway 1/2 marathon & Princess Challenge plans. Next I'm looking at the Higdon Dopey plan, or starting midway on the Galloway, though they're remarkably similar.
8. Most importantly, what is your upcoming race schedule? What/when is your next "A" goal race that you want to focus your training towards?
   1. Princess Challenge in the next week or two, then MW2022 is the next that I have on the schedule. There isn't much of anything else at my level here in TX after May, and I don't think I'll feel comfortable running anything in person before then.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out

Forgot to add one other thing. The paces laid out previously are based on reasonably good weather conditions. Which Texas summers are not. So below is a Temp+Dew Adjustment chart:

 

[Grabnar]

Alright, so I calculate the following estimated race times and training paces:

View attachment 555026

View attachment 555028

View attachment 555027

It sounds like you're fairly new to endurance running. So the drop off between your 5k/10k times and your HM time isn't surprising (it's true for many). In order to hit the estimated 2:01 HM time, then you just need more endurance work. You don't really need any speed work because your speed is already where your "B" goal is. So that helps guide what you should do for the next few months. If you had more speed oriented goals, then I'd suggest some more speed type runs.

Alright, so the Higdon Dopey plan is 18 weeks. So that changes things a bit. Dopey training starts on 9/6/21. With the one week off leading into it, that means the training prior ends 8/28-8/29. That leaves 27 weeks between 2/22 to 8/29.

I'll throw one thing out there about the Higdon and Galloway Dopey plans. The long runs based on your fitness starting in Week 1 would be 136 minutes (13 miles) and caps at 3.5 hrs (20 miles). I personally don't like to see long runs beyond 150 minutes unless you're willing to slow down the long run pace even further than the 10:29 min/mile scheduled above. I don't really think they're necessary and may cause more harm than good.

The Dopey Higdon Week 1 starts off at 27 miles (or an estimated 4:50 hrs). The end of the Winter Higdon plan peaks at 4:20 hrs. So that's a good bridge between the two, but keeps the overall load spread out over 5 days per week. That plan is 13 weeks. So you're missing about 14 weeks. I think you do the Winter plan again before that, except you cut out the Monday run and drop the Saturday run to 80% of listed.

https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/more-training/winter-training/
So in summary:

Plan 1 - Higdon Winter. Drop Monday. Make Saturday 80% of listed. 4 days per week.
Plan 2 - Higdon Winter as written. 5 days per week.
Plan 3 - Higdon Dopey. 4/5 days per week with a bigger time commitment mid-week and weekend.

That should cover the majority of the year. It also keeps things relatively easy during the brutal Texas summer. Thoughts?

That looks like a great plan to me! I was initially looking at the base building trainings but they were either too easy, or too focused on speed work than I was looking for. Thanks again for taking the time to help out!

Any other suggestions? I've been working on foam rolling and stretching to help with recovery, but as you noted I'm pretty new to this. I picked up Anatomy for Runners, 80/20, and a few other books recommended earlier which has been filling in a lot of gaps for me, but it often feels like drinking out of a firehose with all of the contradictory information out there.

 

[BigEeyore]

Any other suggestions? I've been working on foam rolling and stretching to help with recovery, but as you noted I'm pretty new to this.

Keep your core strong - situps, planks, etc - this will help your running form and help prevent injury. I also believe strongly in a good diet and maintaining hydration to help prevent injury and aid recovery.

 

[DopeyBadger]

That looks like a great plan to me! I was initially looking at the base building trainings but they were either too easy, or too focused on speed work than I was looking for. Thanks again for taking the time to help out!

Yea, I too struggled to find something easily accessible, the right length of time, but also wasn't too focused on speed work since that's not really your intent. I think this string of plans will fit those needs.

Any other suggestions? I've been working on foam rolling and stretching to help with recovery, but as you noted I'm pretty new to this. I picked up Anatomy for Runners, 80/20, and a few other books recommended earlier which has been filling in a lot of gaps for me, but it often feels like drinking out of a firehose with all of the contradictory information out there.

Here are five suggestions:

-Train slow to race fast. Your goal isn't necessarily to race fast, but the concept of training slow will still be beneficial. And you may find like many others that running becomes more enjoyable at these slower paces. I would say this is a fairly non-controversial topic. Although some authors are better at explaining or describing this concept than others. Over the years I've learned through experience and research that when left on their own accord most will train too fast despite feeling like the training is "easy enough". But after properly be taught what easy should truly feel like, many find a better understanding of that effort level.

-Consistency is king. No one run is any more important than any other. So in my mind the 20 miler and the 4 mile weekday run are equally important. The real meaning is that the training plan should be taken as a whole and a sum of its parts rather than each individual workout at its relative importance. A successful 20 mile training run happens because of the 4 mile weekday run. And without the 4 mile weekday run, you're only hurting your progress towards your final race day goal. So be just as diligent about doing the little things as you are with doing the big things.

-Train where you are and not where you want to be. There is some slight disagreement on this topic. There are some that suggest that in order to get better you should train slightly faster than you're currently capable of. Whereas others suggest that you should train where you are currently and not necessarily where you want to be. I fall on the side of where you are currently. But there are reasonable arguments on both sides of the topic. I take a physiological approach and argue that training where you are may slow improvement, but it will mitigate the risk in the long term.

These last two are where you'll see the most contradictory information:

-Consider balance in training AND Worry about relative current fitness pacing and duration, not miles. These two go hand and hand, but are slightly different. For many, the training from 5k through HM doesn't typically require training beyond 2.5 to 3 hrs in a single bout of exercise. But when people start to prepare for a marathon is when the general recreational runner will encounter the possibility of training runs beyond 2.5-3 hrs. And that typically comes in the form of a 20 mile training run.

So the question is, who is right? Those on the side of multiple 20 mile training runs, or those on the side of doing less and balancing out the training? The answer is probably a little of both. A you can reach a goal by taking either of two different paths. I'd categorize the idea of multiple 20 mile training runs as old school and the idea of more balance as new school. So why is 20 miles a common marathon training run max distance? The core of my literature research seems to suggest that it's because "humans like round numbers or arbitrary thresholds" and "the average marathon time back in the 70s/80s was much faster than it is today".

Is a 19 mile training run really that different physically than a 20 mile training run? Probably not a ton. So the gains are probably going to be more mental than anything. But as we continue to run further and further in training our form starts to deteriorate. And that's where we start to question whether the gains made are being outweighed by the risks of continuing.

More people are participating in racing in the 2020s than in the 1970s. But the same number of elite/sub-elites are still participating. So the average finish time is slowed down because of the introduction of more and more runners. When the elite/sub-elite do a 20, 22, or 24 mile training run, they're doing it in 2.5 hours or less. So the question is, do us recreational runners also do 20, 22, or 24 mile training runs, or do we follow the duration of the exercise instead focusing on the 2.5-3 hr range as a cutoff based on a relative "long run effort pace". Is it even physically possible to train for "only" 12 miles and still complete a distance of 26.2 miles on race day?

From my experience in training others, I feel quite confident that this new age style of thinking where the focus should be on time rather than distance works for most recreational runners. I say most, because from time to time I do come across those that buck that trend and do better with the increased distance. But for most, I can get them close to their racing calculator conversion on less (sometimes as little as 10-12 miles if that is there 2.5 hr threshold). But despite me being someone who views 2.5-3 hrs as a good limit and a believer in the diminishing returns in more, I have yet to find an actual research based study that shows this through physiological changes. The best I can find is data through epidemiological data sets where we're looking at trends. But through the epidemiological data, we do see that those with balance in training tend to do better as converters than those who do not. And that's from those in the sub-3 pace group and those in the sub-6 pace group. The idea of balance seems to apply to the entire pace spectrum.

One thing I learned back in 2015 was "running can be as simple as you want it to be, or as complex". It can be tie your shoes on and go run. Or it can be a combination of physiology, mathematics, mental perception of effort influences, etc.

Are there other topics of contradictory information you're coming across?

 

[michigandergirl]

I ran an actual race last weekend! The conditions were rather brutal and it was probably one of the slowest half marathons I’ve ever run, but who cares, it was a live race! I’m hoping to have a full recap up soon in my training journal.