The Running Thread -- 2022

[The Expert]

Any watch geeks sitting here like me trying to decide if I want a Fenix 7 or an Epix?

I don’t know anything about the Epix, but I have a Fenix 6S and basically haven’t taken it off since I purchased it in 2020. I love it.

OMG the struggle is real! I love love love my fenix 5s that I bought for my first marathon training almost three years ago. I also never take it off. The 7s is SUPER tempting!

 

[WhereInFlorida]

OMG the struggle is real! I love love love my fenix 5s that I bought for my first marathon training almost three years ago. I also never take it off. The 7s is SUPER tempting!

At those price points I would not be taking it off either, or it should cut several minutes/mile off my marathon pacing

 

[jrsharp21]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

 

[Herding_Cats]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

Are you saying that you wore the same exact pair of running shoes for all 4 races?

 

[jrsharp21]

Are you saying that you wore the same exact pair of running shoes for all 4 races?

Oh no. Same model, 2 different pairs. I wore a pair for the 5k/half and a different pair for the 10k/marathon.

 

[The Expert]

At those price points I would not be taking it off either, or it should cut several minutes/mile off my marathon pacing

I got my 5s for a realllly good deal after the 6 had already been announced, and my 235 didn't have enough battery life on GPS for me to get through the full marathon at my (slow) pace, so that's how I justified the initial purchase. Not sure what hoops I can mentally jump through to do so now. LOL

 

[The Expert]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

Similar situation here. I rotated two pair of the same model shoe, one with significantly more wear. I also had mystery knee pain on one side about mile 8 or so of the full. Never had it in training or in previous training, but it was on the upper outside corner of my left knee. I managed with meds and biofreeze from the aid stations and haven't really felt it during recovery. I asked my trainer about it yesterday and he said it was most likely just a small ligament pull from a random weird step aggravated by fatigue.

I don't think mine was the shoes as I rotated these same two pair for the last 4 weeks or so of my training cycle. But curious to hear other opinions.

 

[WhereInFlorida]

I got my 5s for a realllly good deal after the 6 had already been announced, and my 235 didn't have enough battery life on GPS for me to get through the full marathon at my (slow) pace, so that's how I justified the initial purchase. Not sure what hoops I can mentally jump through to do so now. LOL

I upgraded my old 235 at Christmas, it was probably 4 years old and was questionable for making it through the full marathon as well. It is retired now and lonely from lack of use.

 

[jrsharp21]

Similar situation here. I rotated two pair of the same model shoe, one with significantly more wear. I also had mystery knee pain on one side about mile 8 or so of the full. Never had it in training or in previous training, but it was on the upper outside corner of my left knee. I managed with meds and biofreeze from the aid stations and haven't really felt it during recovery. I asked my trainer about it yesterday and he said it was most likely just a small ligament pull from a random weird step aggravated by fatigue.

I don't think mine was the shoes as I rotated these same two pair for the last 4 weeks or so of my training cycle. But curious to hear other opinions.

Mine is on the outside and lower outside of my left knee. My first thought is IT band. But now I am not so sure. I hear you about the meds and Bio Freeze. I stopped at the med station around mile 12 and had them wrap my knee in ACE bandage and also put tape on my knee to put some pressure on the outside of it. Took some Tylenol and then would stop at every other med station to put more Bio Freeze on both of my legs. Best quote I heard from one of the med stations when I was putting on the Bio Freeze, "runners, make sure you wipe your hands after you are done and before you touch your face or else your marathon is really going to suck". LOL

 

[DopeyBadger]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

This seems like a pretty comprehensive review (link).

My gut instinct would be that 48.6 miles takes a toll regardless of style of shoe you're wearing. Fatigue sets in, and form suffers.

 

[GreatLakes]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

I went from a shoe with a 12mm drop to one with 4mm after reading Dr. Mark Cucuzzella's book and listening him talk about shoes on a few podcasts. I also stopped wearing insoles as a result. My training went better than past training and I have no foot pain but I've never really had much foot pain outside of injuries. I also walk barefoot as often as possible, or just in socks, to keep my foot strong.

He is a doctor and a runner and his take is that the foot is built to do what it needs to do without tons of support. Our bodies are meant to run with as close to 0 drop as possible and the arches are meant to flex under pressure. Adding stability control, insoles that keep the arch from moving, or too much padding to the foot is unnatural and perpetuates foot problems, it doesn't solve them. He uses PF as an example and says one of the first things he has his PF patients do is walk barefoot as much as possible. The only way to strengthen the foot is to use it properly.

I wouldn't make drastic changes. For mine I stopped half way at an 8mm drop for about 500 miles then moved to 4mm.

 

[avondale]

I upgraded my old 235 at Christmas, it was probably 4 years old and was questionable for making it through the full marathon as well. It is retired now and lonely from lack of use.

I also started with a FR 235 and after two years upgraded to a Vivoactive 3. I gave my 235 to my mother for basic step counting, walk recording, etc.

When the Venu came out, I upgraded to that...and gave the Vivoactive 3 to my mother. This was a much better fit for her - she never got the hang of the four buttons on the 235 and wanted to touch the screen like she did with her phone. The VA 3 was perfect.

I got the FR 235 back from her, and it is my emergency back-up watch. For example, when I accidentally dropped my fairly new Venu and killed the GPS and accelerometer, I used the 235 while Garmin replaced the Venu.

I have to say that the Venu's AMOLED screen is something I will never go back from. Thus, the EPIX is very interesting, but I have to be very honest that it's overkill for what I do at the moment.

 

[opusone]

For the advanced runners or people who are running shoe experts/junkies, does a large heel to toe drop contribute to knee pain? The knee pain that hit me on mile 5 of the marathon is still bothering me. I never had any pain with these particular models, Asics Novablast 2, until that day. I am wondering if running that many miles on them in the four days triggered something in my knee.

Mine is on the outside and lower outside of my left knee. My first thought is IT band. But now I am not so sure.

I went from a shoe with a 12mm drop to one with 4mm after reading Dr. Mark Cucuzzella's book and listening him talk about shoes on a few podcasts. I also stopped wearing insoles as a result. My training went better than past training and I have no foot pain but I've never really had much foot pain outside of injuries. I also walk barefoot as often as possible, or just in socks, to keep my foot strong.

He is a doctor and a runner and his take is that the foot is built to do what it needs to do without tons of support. Our bodies are meant to run with as close to 0 drop as possible and the arches are meant to flex under pressure. Adding stability control, insoles that keep the arch from moving, or too much padding to the foot is unnatural and perpetuates foot problems, it doesn't solve them. He uses PF as an example and says one of the first things he has his PF patients do is walk barefoot as much as possible. The only way to strengthen the foot is to use it properly.

I wouldn't make drastic changes. For mine I stopped half way at an 8mm drop for about 500 miles then moved to 4mm.

I would guess you have been using a normal heel to toe drop for most of your life (whether regular shoes or running shoes), so I really doubt that is the issue as your body is likely very used to and adapted to that type of shoe. If the pain is lower, outside of the knee, my first guess is IT band as well; however, if it is still bothering you, I would go see a sports medicine doctor to see what they think. As far as trying out a shoe with a lower or even zero drop, be careful. I have known a lot of runners who have tried this and ended up with injuries (usually calf injuries). As @GreatLakes mentions, if you do decide to try lower drop shoes, please transition slowly by lessening the drop incrementally and/or run very short distances in the low drop shoes and then gradually increase distance over time.

 

[PrincessMickey]

With all the Garmin talk, does anyone use one of the solar ones? I’m getting close to needing to replace my VA3, it’s starting to have charging issues. I’m looking at doing a multi day backpacking trip this summer so the solar is intriguing and I know the VA3 won’t last and I won’t have access to charge it.

As for the shoe topic. I used to rotate 2 of the same shoes. A few months ago, I went into my shoe store and they didn’t have my size and had no idea when they get it in. I spent quite a bit of time with the 2 people working there discussing all things shoes while trying to find an alternate shoe. They both recommended rotating different drop shoes instead of the same. With a higher drop shoe, if you have any irritations from the shoe it will most likely be in the knee. With a zero drop shoe the irritation will be in the ankles. The reason they recommended 2 different drops is the different muscle groups being used. If you do go to a lower drop shoe definitely take your time in transitioning. They had me walk around the house the first day, then a mile walk, then a 2 mile walk, then a mile run, then a 2 mile run. I now go between an 8mm drop Saucony and a zero drop Altra and have no problems going between the two. That big of a difference is not for everyone but it’s been working for me and I actually prefer the Altra’s now. Just a little something to think about, even if you don’t change up the drop, at least consider rotating between 2 different shoes.

 

[azrivest]

I went from a shoe with a 12mm drop to one with 4mm after reading Dr. Mark Cucuzzella's book and listening him talk about shoes on a few podcasts. I also stopped wearing insoles as a result. My training went better than past training and I have no foot pain but I've never really had much foot pain outside of injuries. I also walk barefoot as often as possible, or just in socks, to keep my foot strong.

He is a doctor and a runner and his take is that the foot is built to do what it needs to do without tons of support. Our bodies are meant to run with as close to 0 drop as possible and the arches are meant to flex under pressure. Adding stability control, insoles that keep the arch from moving, or too much padding to the foot is unnatural and perpetuates foot problems, it doesn't solve them. He uses PF as an example and says one of the first things he has his PF patients do is walk barefoot as much as possible. The only way to strengthen the foot is to use it properly.

I wouldn't make drastic changes. For mine I stopped half way at an 8mm drop for about 500 miles then moved to 4mm.

That's your experience mate. And mine is completely different. Not all of us are elite runners, and depending on whose books you read, some advocate for minimalist shoes and others, for max cushioning.

I have flat feet and mostly run with stability shoes, some with 12mm or 10mm of drop. I've had less injuries than whan I started with neutral 8mm drop shoes. For me, the best thing has been to rotate between many pairs of shoes. I go from my Endorphin Speeds to my Glycerin GTS and I am lovin' it. I have about 6 in my rotation right now, plus others that I use occasionally.

Because of winter running, I've switched to using a pair of Ghost 14 GTX compared to my standard Adrenaline 21s and I'm feeling it. Winter is when I get the most injured. I'm not made to use neutral shoes on a multi-day basis.

@jrsharp21 every runner on this board will have different advice for you, no one runner is the same, just like no one body type is the same. Maybe you should contact a physiotherapist or a sports medicine doctor?

 

[MissLiss279]

With all the Garmin talk, does anyone use one of the solar ones? I’m getting close to needing to replace my VA3, it’s starting to have charging issues. I’m looking at doing a multi day backpacking trip this summer so the solar is intriguing and I know the VA3 won’t last and I won’t have access to charge it.

I went on a 3 night backpacking trip last summer. I carried an Anker backup battery and used it to charge my Fenix 6s at night. I had my phone in airplane mode so it wasn’t constantly searching for reception. I may have charged it once on the trip. My phone is my camera, so I didn’t turn it off completely. I know carrying the backup battery definitely added weight to my pack, but it was worth it to me.
I haven’t used a solar watch, but when I was looking into solar charging, everything made it sound like it would take a long time in direct sunlight for a larger solar panel (relatively speaking) to get enough power to make much of a difference. But maybe a watch’s battery doesn’t take as much power as a backup battery, so the solar can keep up with the amount it is being drained???

 

[HangWithMerida]

I use mostly ghosts with a pair of glycerin’s mixed in, so 12mm and 10mm. I run almost entirely on concrete, so I prefer a more cushioned shoe and usually have 3-4 pairs of varying ages in rotation. I used to have knee pain regularly on longer runs. I am fairly certain I have a chronic injury, likely a meniscus tear, in my right knee that was not helping but both of my knees would ache pretty badly. The thing that helped my knee pain issues was changing my gait. I used to heel strike as my natural gait. I made a conscious change to more of a mid foot strike and that was major. It took some time to adjust but now a heel strike feels weird And the only time I get knee pain is after races/really high effort runs, and that is more of a patello-femoral pain from strain that works out with some stretching.
I have been tempted to add a lower drop shoe into my rotation to work some different muscles, like mentioned above, but haven’t bitten the bullet just yet. I am ready for a couple pairs of new shoes so, I guess we’ll see what feels good when I go try on.
I agree there is not a one size fits all solution here. All our experiences are anecdotal but I love hearing what others have tried, what worked, what didn’t. I doubt I will ever go minimalist just because of the surface I run on. But, it is possible your shoes just don’t work for you anymore. For instance, I used to use support shoes when I first started running, but as my legs got stronger my gait changed (even before the conscious strike change), and support shoes actually started causing some pain. After a new fitting, I was recommended to move to a neutral shoe.

 

[Jillfo]

I have flat feet and mostly run with stability shoes, some with 12mm or 10mm of drop. I've had less injuries than whan I started with neutral 8mm drop shoes. For me, the best thing has been to rotate between many pairs of shoes. I go from my Endorphin Speeds to my Glycerin GTS and I am lovin' it. I have about 6 in my rotation right now, plus others that I use occasionally.

As proof we're all different, I have flat feet and love zero drop shoes. And the thinner the sole the better. I used to have frequent knee problems with standard drops and rarely have any issues now that I wear zero drops.

 

[jrsharp21]

Made an appointment with my primary care doctor yesterday. Fortunately for me (and exactly why I chose her as my PC doctor), she is actually a sports doctor. She is part of the group that are the doctors for some of the local pro sports teams in Houston. I believe she is also a runner. So hoping she has some ideas for me. Unfortunately I was not able to get an appointment until Feb 2nd. So I have two weeks to see if things improve any or just rest.

I think I am also going to go down to the local Fleet Feet store and go through their outfitting process.

 

[GreatLakes]

With all the Garmin talk, does anyone use one of the solar ones? I’m getting close to needing to replace my VA3, it’s starting to have charging issues. I’m looking at doing a multi day backpacking trip this summer so the solar is intriguing and I know the VA3 won’t last and I won’t have access to charge it.

I don't have a solar edition but Ray Maker has a section dedicated to it in his Fenix 7 review and talks about it in the summary video at the top. Here is the chart from that review:



Depending on how granular you want the GPS track you can get a great deal of extra life if you change the GPS settings.

Powerbanks are so thin now-a-days you can carry a few of them and charge during breaks to supplement the solar charging. Attom Tech has some highly regarded chargers that are very thin.