This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[kdonnel]

It is a tragey but why blame the cruise line?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201509/5-reasons-we-play-the-blame-game

1. Blame is an excellent defense mechanism. Whether you call it projection, denial, or displacement, blame helps you preserve your sense of self-esteem by avoiding awareness of your own flaws or failings.
   
2. Blame is a tool we use when we’re in attack mode. Falling into the category of a destructive conflict resolution method, blame is a way to try to hurt our partners.
   
3. We’re not very good at figuring out the causes of other people's behavior, or even our own. The attributions we make, whether to luck or ability, can be distorted by our tendency to make illogical judgments. And we're just as bad at making judgments involving the blameworthiness of actions in terms of intent vs. outcome.
   
4. It’s easier to blame someone else than to accept responsibility.There’s less effort involved in recognizing your contributions to a bad situation than in accepting the fact that you're actually at fault, and changing so you don't do it again.
   
5. People lie.

 

[nkereina]

I'm in agreement with those who say it was just a freak accident and no one is to blame. I'm not sure what is meant by "the grandfather let go for a second", but I'm envisioning either a scenario like this:

I wonder if she had been banging on the window at floor level. So he lifted her up, knowingly, to the open window to look out - no banging. (We've had way too many people wonder why would any adult allow a child to bang on a glass window that isn't at a hockey rink.) He thought she'd understand there was no window there and there'd be no banging. Only she didn't. That misunderstanding of what they were going to do at the window was catastrophic. Perhaps she lunged forward to bang on the non-existent window. He had been expecting her to stand still & straight up on the railing. So he didn't have as tight of a grip to hang onto her as necessary, (even had there been a window,) as she lunged forward.

Or a scenario where he was holding her up at a closed window adjacent to the open window, didn't see/notice the neighboring open window, and she squirmed just the right way where she fell out of the open window.

I can't see how the cruise line is at fault for merely having an open window on their ship. All of the balcony cabins seem more dangerous than an open window. I'm sure the family is looking to place blame anywhere they can so they don't have to accept the fact that an innocent mistake by the grandfather caused this. Isn't denial the first stage of grief? I'm sure lawyers are just seeing dollar signs with a tragic story involving a child and a large corporation. Royal relies on guest experience and reputation to drive their sales, so they will almost have to settle even if they don't feel they're at fault. If they take a defensive tone, everyone will be outraged similar to how they were with Majestic resort's response in the DR - totally different story, I know, but it shows what the backlash can be if they don't try to get this out of the spotlight ASAP.

 

[luvsJack]

DH is hockey player and coach. I have been to thousands of hockey games in many arenas.

Banging on glass isn’t permitted. Event staff and security relocate people who bang on the glass. In the suites, it’s made known that banging on the glass is not allowed and if anyone (adults and children alike) bang on the glass, they will be removed from the premises.

It’s a stupid thing to teach a baby.

I have seen it happen multiple times. I’ve seen it break. It’s not pretty.

Its odd that you say it isn't permitted. I have never been to a hockey game but a simple google search shows pictures of the entire crowd practically banging on the glass (well at least the ones close to it). The search even shows articles answering the question as to why hockey fans bang on the glass.

BUT, I don't believe an 18 month old is going to truly be "banging" on the glass. Going by most 18 month olds, it would be more of a patting of the glass and if it broke from that little girl hitting it, there would definitely be an issue with the glass and a law suit coming.

 

[havaneselover]

https://www.insideedition.com/media...hip-reveals-how-they-saw-tragedy-happen-54313
Even the family's lawyer says that the GF let go of the little girl after placing her on the railing. Even if there had been glass there, she could have fallen on the glass and had it break under her weight. Or she could have fallen backwards and hit her head.

DS used to play hockey. Banging on the glass wasn't a thing. It baffles me why you would teach a toddler to bang on glass. On a regular window, she could break it. She could have looked out at the view from where she could stand on the deck.

It's not a children's play area. It's the pool deck. It's probably the most dangerous area of the ship available to passengers. The deck is slippery because of people tracking water around. There are pools and hot tubs that people can and have drowned in. There's so many people around that it's easy to lose track of a little one. The adults with Chloe should have been extra vigilant in the area. There is a splash pool nearby, but kids, especially Chloe's age, have to be closely monitored there, as in within arms reach of their supervising adult. There are signs to that effect. My youngest was 2 on his first cruise. I never took him to the pool deck. Just too dangerous.

This tragedy reminds me of Chase Lykken's near drowning on Disney Fantasy 6 years ago. That also happened right after the family boarded the ship.

I was on the Fantasy when Chase almost drowned. I occasionally read up on how they are doing. They are a very strong family. I hope this family stays strong too.

 

[Searc]

I wonder if she had been banging on the window at floor level. So he lifted her up, knowingly, to the open window to look out - no banging. (We've had way too many people wonder why would any adult allow a child to bang on a glass window that isn't at a hockey rink.) He thought she'd understand there was no window there and there'd be no banging. Only she didn't. That misunderstanding of what they were going to do at the window was catastrophic. Perhaps she lunged forward to bang on the non-existent window. He had been expecting her to stand still & straight up on the railing. So he didn't have as tight of a grip to hang onto her as necessary, (even had there been a window,) as she lunged forward.

This is just so tragic no matter how it happened. We'll probably never really fully know what happened unless RCCI has a video that they release.

They have video (all ships do to monitor sides) but I hope to god it is never released to the public. No reason it should be.

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

Such a needless tragic loss of a beautiful baby's life because of someone else's actions. As much as I feel for the pain and despair of the grandfather it is, nevertheless, his actions which caused the baby to die in such a horrific way. Blaming the cruise ship because of the open window is absurd! The baby could never have reached that window but for his action of lifting her up and balancing her on the rail so she can lean into the window to bang on it. That he did not realise, for whatever reason, that it was open is his mistake and therefore makes him responsible imho. I mean that is a very big window. Did he not feel the outside air on his face as he approached with the baby? From the picture posted I would say the rail is 6-12 inches away from the window meaning an 18 month old would have had to really lean forward to reach it, making that itself a possible dangerous situation (but not deadly) even with the window closed.

 

[gwynne]

Its odd that you say it isn't permitted. I have never been to a hockey game but a simple google search shows pictures of the entire crowd practically banging on the glass (well at least the ones close to it). The search even shows articles answering the question as to why hockey fans bang on the glass.

BUT, I don't believe an 18 month old is going to truly be "banging" on the glass. Going by most 18 month olds, it would be more of a patting of the glass and if it broke from that little girl hitting it, there would definitely be an issue with the glass and a law suit coming.

About banging on the glass-
I have to say I've attended hockey games in several states over the years and it's done occasionally but not nonstop during the whole game. (Although there are rinks I've hear of where it is done much more, part of the local culture I guess.)
I've never done it. And it would never occur to me to teach children to do it.

And even if I was at a youth team game, I wouldn't want little hands anywhere near where adults fans are pounding on the glass.

 

[Hikergirl]

I'm in agreement with those who say it was just a freak accident and no one is to blame. I'm not sure what is meant by "the grandfather let go for a second", but I'm envisioning either a scenario like this:

I thought in the statement released by the family the grandfather himself said he let her go.

 

[luvsJack]

About banging on the glass-
I have to say I've attended hockey games in several states over the years and it's done occasionally but not nonstop during the whole game. (Although there are rinks I've hear of where it is done much more, part of the local culture I guess.)
I've never done it. And it would never occur to me to teach children to do it.

And even if I was at a youth team game, I wouldn't want little hands anywhere near where adults fans are pounding on the glass.

If the adults are pounding on the glass, I agree.


We used to take dd to rodeos and baseball games when she was that little. I have been taking my dgds to wrestling shows since they were that age. Little ones get tired of sitting so they would stand right in front of where we were sitting. I could certainly see an 18 month old patting on the glass that would be right in front of them. But, I don't really see the vast majority of parents letting their 18 month old stand with a bunch of excited hockey fans while they are all banging on the glass. If its not crowded or if they are sitting somewhat away from others, letting her pat the glass in front of them really isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Lynne G]

So even if they picked her up to pound on glass at a family's hockey game, she still could have hit her head if she was not held tightly, or the person holding her was distracted for a minute and lost grip, and she got hurt. From the pictures, the railing looks high. Why anyone would even think of balancing a child on that is scary enough for me. And yeah, from all the pictures, it seems very easy to see which windows are open, and I would assume you certainly would feel the breeze from it. As they do open those windows for ventilation, and not just on Royal ships.

Tragic accident as a result of poor choices. Just like the kid that almost drown in Disney's ship's pool, they did not sue Disney. As Disney probably did, was help the family as much as they could, and I assume Royal is doing the same. As for that pool story, I felt terrible about that child, and do about this one too. Even very loving care givers, good family members, can make which is in hindsight, bad choices. So sad, that sometimes bad things happen. And both were kids. Very sad.

 

[Eeyore2142]

I have been on this ship. One, these windows are not "in the play area". They are on the perimeter of the ship. You have to pass the bars and seating to get to them. Second, you can tell if they are open. The other windows are not clear glass. They are normally pretty wet and tinted for the sun. This is a horrible tragedy. It is not the ships fault. My guess is she was looking out the window and wiggled. If you walked up to the window, you are close enough to know its open.

 

[nkereina]

I thought in the statement released by the family the grandfather himself said he let her go.

I don't know, I'm just saying that I don't understand what that actually means. He could have been doing as PP suggested - balancing her on the rail not realizing the window was open. Or even balancing her on the rail next to a closed window with the open window adjacent to it, without realizing there was an open window there (to me, this better explains how he didn't notice an open window). Regardless of the details of how it went down, its no doubt a tragic accident so I won't throw stones at the grandfather.

One more thing I'll add - grandparents aren't always as keen as parents are when it comes to toddlers and potential dangers. My father-in-law has two small grandkids, but he's rarely alone with them or entirely responsible for them. He's not used to having to keep an eye on something or perceive potential dangers to a child, which can differ from dangers an adult may encounter. This is not to say that the grandfather knowingly lifted the child to the open window (hopefully he's not that aloof), but just that things can happen so quickly and easily when you're out of your element, so to speak.

 

[tzolkin]

So is this guy senile or evil or just dumb? Who does this?

Tons of people do things like this. They are just fortunate that their careless behavior has not resulted in tragedy.

I can't even begin to count the number of times I have seen people sit babies/toddlers on railings/windows/etc. I have a strong fear of heights (instilled in me from a young age by my own paranoid mother) and it makes me physically ill every time I see it.

Even when there is glass or a rail it always boggles my mind how people can put enough faith in the stability of that item to put their or their child's life at risk. I have seen kids many times leaning their full weight and banging on glass.

The man is just human and he thought things would happen one way and tragically they didn’t. No malice, just a human who made a tragic mistake that he has to live with and look into his own child’s eyes and know he caused the death of their child. I can’t imagine, I just can’t imagine.

I remember when Dd was that small and dh would lift her up to see things. Like maybe at the zoo, to see an animal. I would almost have a panic attack and he would say “I got her”. Now he never really put her in danger and he always made sure he held her in a way that squirming could never have made him drop her but how many parents do hold their child up to these same things all the time and don’t have as good a grip as they should have? Or step closer than dh did and if they had dropped the child would have dropped them into danger? Honestly there are so many things that can happen to our children in a split second. It’s easy to judge after the fact and wonder why someone would do these things but the fact is, it happens and it’s tragic.

I agree. I certainly don't think he had any ill intentions, but this is why I was so paranoid when my children were very little. I don't even like watching other people carrying babies when they don't seem to have an appropriate grip on them.

I see that many are baffled by how this could happen, but I'm not shocked at all. I think it's fairly easy to drop a squirming/flailing baby or toddler and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I think most people think it's ridiculous and are completely offended by the mere thought ("I could NEVER drop a baby"). Because they don't see it as a possibility, they don't take any extra precautions and it doesn't even enter their mind when they approach a situation where this would be extremely dangerous (window, balcony, etc)

 

[Luv Bunnies]

I know that the grandpa was just trying to keep the toddler occupied and happy. But here's what it comes down to - railings are not chairs. They're not places for kids to sit or stand on. It doesn't matter if there's an open or closed window behind it. You don't sit your kids on railings, even if you plan to hold them. Too many things can go wrong. You stand behind railings because they are obviously there for a reason. It was a very tragic accident and my heart really goes out to the family. But I also feel like this was completely avoidable. And I don't think the cruise line is to blame. If there was a railing, the child should not have been on it.

 

[mjkacmom]

Tons of people do things like this. They are just fortunate that their careless behavior has not resulted in tragedy.

I can't even begin to count the number of times I have seen people sit babies/toddlers on railings/windows/etc. I have a strong fear of heights (instilled in me from a young age by my own paranoid mother) and it makes me physically ill every time I see it.

Even when there is glass or a rail it always boggles my mind how people can put enough faith in the stability of that item to put their or their child's life at risk. I have seen kids many times leaning their full weight and banging on glass.




I agree. I certainly don't think he had any ill intentions, but this is why I was so paranoid when my children were very little. I don't even like watching other people carrying babies when they don't seem to have an appropriate grip on them.

I see that many are baffled by how this could happen, but I'm not shocked at all. I think it's fairly easy to drop a squirming/flailing baby or toddler and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. I think most people think it's ridiculous and are completely offended by the mere thought ("I could NEVER drop a baby"). Because they don't see it as a possibility, they don't take any extra precautions and it doesn't even enter their mind when they approach a situation where this would be extremely dangerous (window, balcony, etc)

I think I’m the only twin mom who has never carried both babies/toddlers to and from the car, or up and down the stairs, I’m also paranoid about heights and falls. When ds21 goes hiking or cliff diving, he is forbidden to talk to me about it.

 

[mnrose]

I think I’m the only twin mom who has never carried both babies/toddlers to and from the car, or up and down the stairs, I’m also paranoid about heights and falls. When ds21 goes hiking or cliff diving, he is forbidden to talk to me about it.

Probably. I carried mine up and down stairs...at the same time...many times. You just learn to deal as a twin mom. But, I also understand how/why it is "more dangerous" than one at a time. Taking them both out as toddlers to the park or wherever was also "more dangerous" than trying to watch one. It's a balancing act for sure. We had many "close calls" because of "twin behavior" as I call it. One was when DH was watching them both as they were playing in the living room. The phone rang (hard wired phone) and he turned his back for the 30-45 seconds it took to reach the phone in the next room. He turned as he answered and saw my DD walking around on the TOP of the upright piano. We had marble floors. Scary as all heck. Near as we can figure, DD used DS to 'climb' up to the keyboard, and from there she scrambled to the top in the blink of an eye. Would DH have been a "terrible" parent if she had fallen and injured herself? If you say yes, are you also going to tell me you've never turned your back for 30-45 seconds or stepped into the next room while you were a parent? If so, I'm calling you a liar or forgetful. It's HUMAN!

I should also add that by this time, we already had ALL the dining room chairs ON TOP of the dining room table because DD was such a climber. But, we had failed to consider she might use her brother as a step stool. LOL.

 

[LittleMissMagic]

Probably. I carried mine up and down stairs...at the same time...many times. You just learn to deal as a twin mom. But, I also understand how/why it is "more dangerous" than one at a time.

If you're carrying a baby on each hip or one in each hand, you won't have one hand free to catch yourself if you fall. So you'd be unable to protect your face and head if you were to miss a riser. And the babies would hit the ground with you because you'd be unable to put an arm down.

That being said, I don't have children but walk up the stairs with both of my hands full all of the time.

 

[underdesea]

The lawyer representing the family is based in Miami. It appears his firm specializes in suing cruise companies. He has won several multimillion dollar lawsuits against them. He also appears on national TV a lot to talk about cruise ship-related injuries and lawsuits. A personal-injury lawyer on steroids, it seems.

 

[msjprincess]

The lawyer representing the family is based in Miami. It appears his firm specializes in suing cruise companies. He has won several multimillion dollar lawsuits against them. He also appears on national TV a lot to talk about cruise ship-related injuries and lawsuits. A personal-injury lawyer on steroids, it seems.

Oh yeah, I remember him from another case a few years ago. https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-royal-caribbean-man-overboard-more-20151109-story.html

 

[lifesavacation]

Probably. I carried mine up and down stairs...at the same time...many times. You just learn to deal as a twin mom. But, I also understand how/why it is "more dangerous" than one at a time. Taking them both out as toddlers to the park or wherever was also "more dangerous" than trying to watch one. It's a balancing act for sure. We had many "close calls" because of "twin behavior" as I call it. One was when DH was watching them both as they were playing in the living room. The phone rang (hard wired phone) and he turned his back for the 30-45 seconds it took to reach the phone in the next room. He turned as he answered and saw my DD walking around on the TOP of the upright piano. We had marble floors. Scary as all heck. Near as we can figure, DD used DS to 'climb' up to the keyboard, and from there she scrambled to the top in the blink of an eye. Would DH have been a "terrible" parent if she had fallen and injured herself? If you say yes, are you also going to tell me you've never turned your back for 30-45 seconds or stepped into the next room while you were a parent? If so, I'm calling you a liar or forgetful. It's HUMAN!

I should also add that by this time, we already had ALL the dining room chairs ON TOP of the dining room table because DD was such a climber. But, we had failed to consider she might use her brother as a step stool. LOL.

My twins were a handful. They were easily able to climb over baby gates using each other as step stools. We ended up having to use a second one on top to keep them contained

I think that some situations require more vigilance than others. I wouldn't leave my toddlers unattended around a pool and I'd still have them wear a life vest. I wouldn't stand my toddler up on a railing on a cruise ship nor would I be within 3 feet of the edge of the ship carrying a toddler. Obviously, not every parent thinks it's necessary to be this vigilant. My anxiety has me convinced that if there's a possibility of a freak accident, it's going to happen to one of my kids.