This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[Pamlur]

The 'well' that Baby Jessica fell down was only eight inches in diameter, it wasn't like wells are portrayed with buckets to lower for water. It had been covered with a heavy rock, and the mother said she didn't know how or when the rock got moved.

 

[sam_gordon]

I've snipped this picture from your second link. I'm startled by how similar the open window and the closed window appear from the inside. The pictures I've previously seen were shot from the ship's exterior and it was obvious which window was open. From this perspective, not near so much.
View attachment 416833

Keep in mind this is night, and the picture is taken from 20+ feet away. Please don't use they "he didn't know the window was open" excuse.
A) If you're close enough for someone to fall out, you're going to notice the window was open (breeze and noise level should be different.
B) Even if the window is shut, why do you prop a toddler on top of a railing and (IIRC admittedly) let go? What if the toddler falls backwards onto the deck and hits her head?

For those claiming the ambulance chasing lawyer got in touch with the family at a difficult time, that's true. But with one parent in the Sheriff's office and one a (former?) prosecutor, surely they have more experience with these types of lawyers than the general public. They still lose a LOT of sympathy from me with allowing the lawyer to claim it's RCI's fault.

 

[ronandannette]

Keep in mind this is night, and the picture is taken from 20+ feet away. Please don't use they "he didn't know the window was open" excuse.
A) If you're close enough for someone to fall out, you're going to notice the window was open (breeze and noise level should be different.
B) Even if the window is shut, why do you prop a toddler on top of a railing and (IIRC admittedly) let go? What if the toddler falls backwards onto the deck and hits her head?

For those claiming the ambulance chasing lawyer got in touch with the family at a difficult time, that's true. But with one parent in the Sheriff's office and one a (former?) prosecutor, surely they have move experience with these types of lawyers than the general public. They still lose a LOT of sympathy from me with allowing the lawyer to claim it's RCI's fault.

I'm not using any excuse; I don't need to. I just found this picture rather startling considering we all likely assumed the idea of not being able to tell the window was open was absurd.

 

[HopperFan]

Looking at this pic, I would have thought the middle one was open, as there are reflections on both the far right and far left panes.

There are multiple photos of same scene from different angles and the windows & opening present themselves completely different than this. And it was during the day and he was closer to the wall so the view would be much different. I've been on this ship, I've been up close to these windows and it's easy to see what is open and closed. Also they were embarking and would be doing a sail away. These windows would be slid open and used by guests enjoying the sail away that don't have cabins with balconies. These windows are supposed to be open most the day for air movement.

Given the story has changed so many times and has now changed again as to what he was doing, that he is not "cooperating" and the lawyer claims there is a language barrier ... in San Juan .... I think it's best to wait and see what the videos do show and the final conclusion of the investigation. Cameras are on the ship and likely on the dock as well. They hopefully have obtained enough footage to get answers.

Also many of these publications are printing their own versions and using photos that are stock or inaccurate. Using that second link .. the close up of the window with the red circle is completely wrong window and the next showing an arrow and 150 ft fall is the wrong end of the ship.

 

[sam_gordon]

the next showing an arrow and 150 ft fall is the wrong end of the ship.

OK, how do you figure that? That picture is showing the fall from the front part of the pool deck. The aft part of that deck is the Windjammer who's windows don't open.

 

[cinnaminny]

Yep. My relationship with my biological mother and grandmother were fragile to begin with. When I had my twins and they showed up to the hospital drunk. I had enough... My mother went to pick my daughter up, my husband prevented her from doing so, they got all offended and that was it. I honestly haven’t had a relationship with them since and I’m not sorry.

You did the right thing. Sometimes it’s better to be away from family. You can still love people and want nothing to do with them.

 

[luvsJack]

The 'well' that Baby Jessica fell down was only eight inches in diameter, it wasn't like wells are portrayed with buckets to lower for water. It had been covered with a heavy rock, and the mother said she didn't know how or when the rock got moved.

Well aware of what it looked like. Watched the entire thing on the news just like the rest of the world.

Besides my grandparents had one I. Their yard that they transformed into a very deep goldfish pond.

 

[HopperFan]

OK, how do you figure that? That picture is showing the fall from the front part of the pool deck. The aft part of that deck is the Windjammer who's windows don't open.

The back of the ship is the Windjammer, the front of the ship is the salon and the middle of the ship is the entire pool deck full of pools and hot tubs. The photo is marked forward of the overhanging hot tub ... to the front of the pool deck. The children's splash pad/pool area is the pool farthest to the back just in front of the middle of Windjammer area. They keep saying it happened on the part of the deck closest to the children's pool area towards the Windjammer.

Between light blue lines is the entire pool deck.
The bright blue dot is the kids splash/pool area.
The red dot is where the photo is marking the window.
The yellow lines are the windows next to splash/pool area.
So they show the forward pool deck area,
but it should have been the rear pool deck area.

 

[Pamlur]

I am sorry if I offended you. I wasn't addressing anybody in particular, just threw the info out there. It's been many years, and some people here might not have watched it on the news with the rest of the world.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

There are multiple photos of same scene from different angles and the windows & opening present themselves completely different than this. And it was during the day and he was closer to the wall so the view would be much different. I've been on this ship, I've been up close to these windows and it's easy to see what is open and closed. Also they were embarking and would be doing a sail away. These windows would be slid open and used by guests enjoying the sail away that don't have cabins with balconies. These windows are supposed to be open most the day for air movement.

Given the story has changed so many times and has now changed again as to what he was doing, that he is not "cooperating" and the lawyer claims there is a language barrier ... in San Juan .... I think it's best to wait and see what the videos do show and the final conclusion of the investigation. Cameras are on the ship and likely on the dock as well. They hopefully have obtained enough footage to get answers.

Also many of these publications are printing their own versions and using photos that are stock or inaccurate. Using that second link .. the close up of the window with the red circle is completely wrong window and the next showing an arrow and 150 ft fall is the wrong end of the ship.

This is my feelings on the situation. I realize many here haven't experienced these windows in person, but them trying to defend the idea that the GF may not have known the window was open is ridiculous. You have to really be reaching to attempt to make that argument. I believe it was an accident. I believe he had a momentary lack of judgement. I feel sorry for the family, especially the parents & GF. That doesn't mean I don't shake my head every time someone tries to defend him not knowing the window was open.

 

[luvsJack]

I am sorry if I offended you. I wasn't addressing anybody in particular, just threw the info out there. It's been many years, and some people here might not have watched it on the news with the rest of the world.

No you didn’t offend me. Didn’t mean to sound harsh. Sorry. But yeah, it was basically a deep hole not really what is first thought of as a well.

 

[mummabear]

Fixed it.

Sorry luvsJack I was actually joking (again dark sense of humor but couldn't pass up the opportunity)

You say not comparable, but there were many here on the DIS who flamed that dad for letting his son stand in the water, and blamed him for his son’s death. It seems like you are doing the same to someone else.

There was, and there was also people arguing as fiercely in their defence. I personally see the situations as very different.
Like many things you look at what a reasonable person would have done in the same situation. I really don't think you will find many people that would truly have found themselves making this error, where as if you look at how many people were unaware of the danger of alligators in that water and had been doing exactly what that poor boys family had been doing, you will find a lot more understanding.
Not everyone loves in areas with alligators or snakes, or rips or thermal springs and the dangers seem obvious to those who live there but others are oblivious (that is why tourist areas in particular have warning signs) yet heights, heights kill everywhere.
imagine if Michael Jackson had dropped Blanket after dangling him from the balcony, would that be bad things happen to good people and accidents happen to the best of us? Because it doesnt sound like the Grandpa was that stupid, but he wasn't exactly being smart either.

Now if the story was more he was walking along with the kid on his hip, she squirmed and went over a balcony, sure I could see that mistake happening.
Hell a women "dropped" her baby off the Capilano bridge in a similar circumstance.
But purposely placing her there, that was inviting trouble.

Sometimes it's truly an honest, though absolutely terrible mistake, and sometimes it's something more negligent.

Exactly, I doubt very much that this Granddad had any intention of hurting his granddaughter, there seems to be a lot of photos of them together, he seems an involved grandparent.
But he also seems to have made a choice so dumbfoundingly stupid that it cost his grandchild her life, and was so easily preventable.

 

[luvsJack]

Sorry luvsJack I was actually joking (again dark sense of humor but couldn't pass up the opportunity)



There was, and there was also people arguing as fiercely in their defence. I personally see the situations as very different.
Like many things you look at what a reasonable person would have done in the same situation. I really don't think you will find many people that would truly have found themselves making this error, where as if you look at how many people were unaware of the danger of alligators in that water and had been doing exactly what that poor boys family had been doing, you will find a lot more understanding.
Not everyone loves in areas with alligators or snakes, or rips or thermal springs and the dangers seem obvious to those who live there but others are oblivious (that is why tourist areas in particular have warning signs) yet heights, heights kill everywhere.
imagine if Michael Jackson had dropped Blanket after dangling him from the balcony, would that be bad things happen to good people and accidents happen to the best of us? Because it doesnt sound like the Grandpa was that stupid, but he wasn't exactly being smart either.

Now if the story was more he was walking along with the kid on his hip, she squirmed and went over a balcony, sure I could see that mistake happening.
Hell a women "dropped" her baby off the Capilano bridge in a similar circumstance.
But purposely placing her there, that was inviting trouble.


Exactly, I doubt very much that this Granddad had any intention of hurting his granddaughter, there seems to be a lot of photos of them together, he seems an involved grandparent.
But he also seems to have made a choice so dumbfoundingly stupid that it cost his grandchild her life, and was so easily preventable.

No problems. My choice of words weren’t really the best choice for this thread.



I am beginning to be very confused by how all this happened. The police said he was dangling her. And then it was that he put her on the ledge to bang on the glass he thought was there. Now he was rocking her. If he was rocking her to sleep, why would he be putting her on the ledge to hit the glass? Or if he was rocking her to sleep why was he even that close to the window??

I mean I feel so bad for these people and I totally understand the confusion and honest to goodness inability to even think or remember after such a traumatic event.And I am not meaning to judge them as I know it was a tragic accident. But the lawyer giving a story that totally doesn’t match the other versions just doesn’t make sense. It makes me wonder how honest the lawyer is being.

 

[lanejudy]

I am beginning to be very confused by how all this happened. The police said he was dangling her. And then it was that he put her on the ledge to bang on the glass he thought was there. Now he was rocking her.

I think much of the confusion is due to language translations. Words don’t necessarily translate directly with the exact same meaning. “Dangling” was the initial story but was likely inappropriately translated from the initial reports (presumably in Spanish). The most recent report of “rocking” is also a translation from a Spanish-language newspaper, I believe. The only truly English-origination comes from the family’s lawyer, and I trust that to be the most accurate of the family’s account lifting her up to bang on the glass like at a hockey rink. The accounts of “dangling” and “rocking” are translation inaccuracies (or even just poor reporting).

Some of the reports have included a picture of the child standing and leaning against such glass at a youth hockey game. I can’t quite figure out the placement because any hockey rinks with which i’m familiar do not have ledges that deep for a little one to stand on. Glass is about waist high on an adult, but no space for a young child to stand unassisted like the pictures show. Regardless, apparently that is what this family has done, fairly often.

I believe that in the moment - excitement at the start of a cruise and family vacation - the grandfather made a horrible mistake. Unintended and tragic consequences. My heart goes out to all of them.

 

[mom2rtk]

No problems. My choice of words weren’t really the best choice for this thread.



I am beginning to be very confused by how all this happened. The police said he was dangling her. And then it was that he put her on the ledge to bang on the glass he thought was there. Now he was rocking her. If he was rocking her to sleep, why would he be putting her on the ledge to hit the glass? Or if he was rocking her to sleep why was he even that close to the window??

I mean I feel so bad for these people and I totally understand the confusion and honest to goodness inability to even think or remember after such a traumatic event.And I am not meaning to judge them as I know it was a tragic accident. But the lawyer giving a story that totally doesn’t match the other versions just doesn’t make sense. It makes me wonder how honest the lawyer is being.

I just assume the dangling part of the story was him trying to hold on to her.

 

[Allison]

Please don't use they "he didn't know the window was open" excuse.
A) If you're close enough for someone to fall out, you're going to notice the window was open (breeze and noise level should be different.

This is a discussion. The fact is we don't know if he knew the window was open or not. This entire thread is speculation.

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

This is a discussion. The fact is we don't know if he knew the window was open or not. This entire thread is speculation.

Absolutely! Our opinions are only based on what we have read, what each of us deems common sense in child safety and by some posters having been on this ship and knowing how the windows look like opened/closed. We know he put the child on the wooden bar to stand/sit so she could look outside or bang on the window or whatever he was thinking. He was only 6-12 inches away (based on photos) from a very big open window. His claims that he didn't know it was open sound ridiculous (to me imho) as is the blame the family is now putting on the ship. There is no way he could not have felt and breathed the fresh air and the outside July heat even if he did not realise it was open as he approached. Even if he is to be believed about the window still that was his mistake which proved fatal. I believe 1000% he meant no harm to his little grandchild and it was all a tragic accident but still, by his actions alone, caused her death as unintentional as it obviously was. At the end of the day only the ships' video will reveal the undisputed truth of what happened as I read somewhere that they have very clear images.

 

[sam_gordon]

This is a discussion. The fact is we don't know if he knew the window was open or not. This entire thread is speculation.

Have you ever been within 2' of a window and NOT know whether it was open or not? If he was that close to the window and still couldn't tell it was open, he shouldn't have had responsibility for a toddler put into his care.

This was a tragic accident. Whatever decisions he made he will have to live with for the rest of his life. However, instead of saying "I made the wrong decision" or "I don't know exactly what happened", they (the family) try to put all the blame on the cruise line. That is reprehensible IMO.

 

[luvsJack]

Just a question as I don’t know anything about cruise ships. But it’s like a wall of windows right? Why don’t they open the upper windows instead of those at that level? I mean I get that they don’t plan for people to do whatever grandpa did but it seems like it would be safer.

 

[sam_gordon]

Just a question as I don’t know anything about cruise ships. But it’s like a wall of windows right? Why don’t they open the upper windows instead of those at that level? I mean I get that they don’t plan for people to do whatever grandpa did but it seems like it would be safer.

I'm guessing it's so people can feel the breeze. If the upper windows were open, I don't know that anyone would feel the effects.

This is just a guess though.