Totally OT help for my son...

[kayrosek]

Like many others, I feel like you just described my 10 yr old son. Every child is different even those with the same diagnosis' but my son has been diagnosed with PDD, ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder and a few other things. He does not transition well and has quite a few fears and anxietys. He can lash out at times and say quite mean things. He can also have meltdowns that are similar to a terrible two tantrum when he is upset. He is sdomewhat different at school. I think the consistent routine there helps but his teachers have seen some of the behaviors and actually they have seen some ones that I haven't.

 

[Corbin3]

My 8 year old son is like yours in many ways. I spent many months researching and reading books to find out ways to help him. He also has a hard time with transitions (at home) and has some minor sensory issues (doesn't like loud noises), ect. I had convinced myself he had some sort of autism spectrum disorder but he didn't fit right into any of the categories. Yes, he had issues but they weren't as sever as most of things I was reading. Then one day as I was reading a forum about a certain personality disorder, I read a posting from a woman that said...before you convince yourself your child has some sort of disorder and let a doctor medicate them, make sure their not gifted first. Sure enough he fits into this category. He's a very bright student, loves to argue and challenge ideas and test. He's an angel at school, but at home where he's comfortable he will push and test until I want to pull my hair out! I strongly suggest the strong willed child books. Clear consistent guidelines have helped us, along with patience and a lot of deep breaths on my part. Good luck! Sorry this is a book

 

[momof5boys]

Sounds like anxiety. School has a pretty set routine so he maybe fine there. Kids with anxiety get that fight or flight mentality. What makes them anxious might not make any sense to you but causes them much distress. My son has anxiety over change and other weird things, like eating in a strange restaurant with alot of people(yet he loves to eat out at certain places) He uses to get very mouthy when he got stressed,or he would cry at the drop of a hat. He is getting better with meds and since he realizes alot of it is his anxiety he can verbalize it.
I had taken my son to a Pyschiatrist at first and he was misdiagnosed as ADHD, then we went to a neuro developmental pediatrician who diagnosed him with anxiety.
As for the karate I would pull him out. It sounds like he has other activities. My DS did karate for awhile but then started getting stressed about it, not wanting to go. He didn't like it when he was compared to others or they had little competitions in class. So he stopped going.
My advice to you would to watch what is going on when these behaviors happen and write them down. If you see a pattern it will help you when you see the doctor, also you can discuss what you see with your son. It may help him understand why he acts that way also!

 

[millerpjm]

I would suggest if it a cause for concern to talk to your pediatrician, and have an evaluation done by a psychologist. They can help you determine if this is a normal "kid" thing or something that needs to be looked into further. My son with ADHD also has this problem - usually giving him a warning before switching activities/leaving for school, etc. is a big help. That way he knows what's next in advance.

 

[Soarin_04]

It *may* be something on the spectrum, but the fact that he's social, has friends, has the ability to limit the behaviors mostly to home / family, and is otherwise engaged kind of shoots that down IMHO. (My son's got high-functioning autism / Aspergers).

See a ped, and if the ped blows you off, go with your mommy instinct and ask for a referral to a developmental pediatrician who can make a diagnosis / offer suggestions.

He sounds exactly like my friend's 10 year old daughter. Friend looked at everything from autism to sensory integration and discovered that her daughter has some slight ADD issues coupled with a bit of oppositional defiance disorder. Some therapy, some meds, and the kiddo's fine.

Good luck. Doesn't it stink that these kids don't come with an owner's manual that covers all this stuff???

 

[mjkacmom]

Ds7 is a junior blackbelt in TKD, and during the first couple of years, would want to quit about halfway into getting his next belt. Then he would test for his new belt, and be very into it again. He can also be mean, and has a temper. However, he's not coddled in the least, and is getting much better. We do not tolerate his poor sportsmanship, or his anger issues. We're actually pretty tough on him. He was in trouble at school last year for not being respectful to his teacher, but this year, he's a model student (according to his teacher). I suspected ADHD (since his brother is medicated for ADHD - focusing issues), but he's totally focused in school, and playing sports (amazingly focused).

 

[PinballFamily]

go with your mommy instinct and ask for a referral to a developmental pediatrician who can make a diagnosis / offer suggestions.

Good luck - OP. You've gotten some very helpful responses from great folks - and it sounds like you're following up! I'd echo this post, and ask your pedi to recommend a developmental pedi or even a neuropsychologist. These specialists usually have more experience and testing materials to get at what might be happening with your child. Those of us who walk in your shoes know what you're describing and how troubling it can be for the entire family. Thanks for posting and allowing us to try to assist.

BTW, school testing is a different kettle 'o fish. School testing is free, but can be worth what you paid for it, if you get me. Schools are not permitted or qualified to "diagnose" but only offer services that can assist a child. And, in these tight budget times, schools can be reluctant to notice ANYTHING that might cost any extra $$$. Of course, not all schools are like this, but...IMHO, you're better using your medical professionals to pursue this.

Good luck - and you'll find there are lots of other parents out there who can be helpful as you move through the process of finding answers. We frequently benefit from the wisdom and experience of others who have gone before us and are very grateful for their assistance!

 

[TnTWalter]

Thanks so much for all the wonderful insight and help and sharing personal stories. I feel better just knowing I'm not alone.

I think a lot of it is I just parent him the way I parent the girls and it doesn't work. Although the girls would tell you I treat him different and maybe I do. I'm sure a lot of it is me and my husband not dealing well with it or knowing how to deal with it.

He gets time outs [sits in the corner]. But sometimes I just pick my battles...l

this morning is another example. We got lots of snow last night. I told the kids they probably should put on their snow boots because it was deep, son put on his sneakers [while he was in time out for kicking his sister]. I decided not to worry about it because it was his choice since I didn't tell them they had to wear snow boots...fast forward.....i was going into school this am to work in one of my DD's class who's at same school as DS. So I said 'do you want to ride the bus or go with us to school'. He chose bus. I said that's fine daddy will take you.
he ran out to tell daddy to take him to bus because mom's driving sis to school...hubby's been shoveling snow and says ok but then sees sneakers and tells him he has to put boots on....DS comes in all upset and now won't go on bus ...it's so silly. DH says he had no idea mom left it up to him blah blah blah. He ends up going with me in the car. It wasn't a big deal he didn't explode because I deflected it. But the fact that he couldn't come in the house throw on boots and head to the bus stop is what is odd.....

I probably cater more than I should to make life easier for me but it's probably why we're where we are....OY. So could it be more me than him causing this?

I will definitely start implementing the schedule thing weekly, and daily before school so he knows what will happen after school...today you have hockey, karate, whatever.

I'm heading to the library in a few minutes to look for books. I have to dig around here for the strong willed child book.

I'm thinking I should start there and then do the developmental pediatrician route in a month if it doesn't get better...or perhaps I should have him seen in addition. I'll have to ponder that. My husband will think I'm overreacting but I'd rather over react than under react I suppose.

Lots to absorb.

Trish

 

[hipchickie]

I agree with the poster that mentioned anxiety, especially since you mentioned the selective mutism in K

http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/AnxietyinChildren.htm

 

[TnTWalter]

THANKS so much again. leaning towards anxiety based on all the descriptions you all have so kindly given. But again, doesn't fit symptoms. He did have severe separation anxiety all the way through 1st grade. We struggled so much in the beginning of the year last year. I totally 'forgot' about that [selective memory]. I think having a 'full' day instead of half day was really hard on him.

I am so afraid to make that call....I will ponder all info today.

 

[3boymthr]

I have similar issues with my middle DS. He has IDD (a form of ADD) and Oppositional disorder (read stubborn). He has some of the same issues your DS does. Likes something, has fun, but wants to quit halfway thru. Fights like mad when we tell him we have to go somewhere unless it's his idea or whenever his routine is going to change. His teachers never had this problem so I was at a loss at first then we talked to the school psychologist and he made some suggestions. He put it down partly to the IDD but mostly to the Oppositional Disorder.

Some strategies he suggested that I have tried and that work to make getting things done without the meltdowns include:

Calling ahead before he ever gets home who is free to play and who is not (including my mom ). He can then call and make arrangements to see who he wants to see and there are no unexpected rejections so no meltdowns.

Giving him the schedule of activities for the week and reminding him each morning what is happening when and where. I then also remind him when he gets home and at varying intervals until it's "time." I find as long as I give him plenty of reminders that things go more smoothly. Giving him his own calendar so he can write down what is happening for himself has also helped. He is briefed not only his own schedule but that of the entire family so he knows what others have to do when so he can be prepared when I tell him it's time to get in the car to take X to Y. There is still some spontanaiety, but the more advance warning I give him the better things go.

Once he starts fighting about going to an activity we allow him to quit, but we make him finish out the session we tell him that we've paid for the lessons, games, etc so he's going. He then doesn't fight so much about the balance of the lessons, etc. The only thing that he has not been allowed to quit is Cubscouts. He wants to quit whenever my co-leader is in charge of the den meeting (she's very much into making it educational ) so this does get challenging, but the "session" is a whole year so it gives us plenty of time to work the bugs out with that.

 

[kellyg403]

Hang in there OP. I think others made great suggestions! My 3rd child, my dd was diagnosed with ADD/ODD and alot of what you describe is something we had to go through as well. I will never forget the psychologist who informed me that her problems were in part my fault. These types of kids need consistency and follow through at all times. If I say something and issue a consequence I HAD to follow through. She knew how long it would take to wear me down, when I had enough and she could get by easily and when I just didn't want to deal with it. I played the pick my battle game with her because it seemed like all our dealings together were negative. So, in order to feel like the day was 'happy' I would let her get away with things that the day before I wouldn't have. She pretty much never knew when it was o.k, when it wasn't etc.

She is 24 now, and it has been a long road. We tried meds at first but I did not like how things were going or how I felt they affected her. So, we were one of the lucky ones where diet control and behavior modification worked really well. Not perfectly, and we STILL to this day might not see eye to eye but we get through.

She was one of the ones where it only was at home she wasn't an angel. Her teachers thought she was the most creative and fun kid EVER. At school she had lots of friends, but no real social connections if you understand. There never was that one 'true' friend who she spent the night with or hung out with. Typically she hung out with her older siblings and their friends. Socially, she just never understood that you can't say the first thing that came to mind, you couldn't be selfish, you couldn't be first all the time etc. Around 3rd grade when social became more important is when we really saw the need to take action.

Kelly

 

[TnTWalter]

thank you so much for the thoughts and personal stories. I really appreciate it. i ran out and bought weekly dry erase boards [$2.50 at staples clearance so this is budget related LOL]. and put in the 2 of the 3 kids room [oldest already had dry erase calendar] and put one in our message center that has everyone's activities.

He transitioned to karate last night with ZERO issues. I found my strong willed child book and am planning on reading that today or tomorrow.

Hubby is against even meeting with a developmental ped. so I'm at a roadblock there. I think I'll show him some of these responses.

Thanks so much.

Trish

 

[fakereadhed]

I have a teen girl with Aspergers/NLD and other issues(mental health related). She was always difficult, but things really came to a head when she was 8. I guess that's common. From our experience, pediatricians are great with health issues, but psychologists do the kind if testing you need if you are looking for answers. The bad news: they run the gammut from good to really awful so do some research before you put your parenting in their hands. We have taken some terrible advice at times when we were desperate to try anything and it made things worse. The best child psychologists are hard to get into. If you choose that route, wait for a good one- even if it takes a year to get in.

Things I wish I had done when my strong willed child was younger? Let her learn from natural consequences. Shouldn't have tried to discuss right and wrong like I did with the other kids at lenghth, just wish I'd told her once and let her see the cosequences of her actions when she was in gradeschool. The lessons she is learning doing that now are much more severe. I tried raising all three of my kids the same and it worked for the other two and did not for her. She isn't other kids and I wish I had realized that sooner. I read all the books, but none of the typical things worked. If I had let her realize that negative behavior had consequences to her rather than having her focus on the punishment which she percieved as my fault, I think it might have helped. Who knows? But I do recommend doing something now. It doesn't get easier as they get older!

 

[PinballFamily]

Hubby is against even meeting with a developmental ped. so I'm at a roadblock there. I think I'll show him some of these responses.

Thanks so much.

Trish

Sadly, as you'll most likely read in your research, this is a pretty classic response by men/dads. They typically seem more afraid of pursuing these lines of inquiry - for a variety of reasons: (Moms are "overreacting"...kid just needs to "toughen up"...he fears "labeling" your son...he's grieving/angry/disappointed and afraid to see your son having a tough time, but doesn't know what to do... or...?)

But, for your son, you really need to try to learn more about your husband's fears and concerns and work through them together. If your son had an infection, would your DH be against antibiotics? Dealing with emotional health issues to help your son is just as important as physical health issues. Our society though, sometimes thinks of them quite differently. Good luck and please keep us posted on how you're all doing.

 

[KKB]

thank you all so much for the insight. I really appreciate it. I'm going to research the information you've given.

My neighbor across the street has aspergers and I don't think it's quite like that but probably similar.

Teachers never see it so it makes it harder. He's a great student, gets along well with others [in class], etc.

It's very odd to me. He had a friend over the other night and they couldn't agree on anything to do and so my son started saying mean things like 'we're not really friends, etc.' He later told the friend he feels bad and he was sorry but damage is done. It just hurts to see him struggle.

He is introverted to some extent but has gotten much better. His kindergarten teacher's goal was to get him to talk to her by the end of the year. He did.

Thank you.

The fact that he doesn't demonstrate these behaviors at school is strong indication that it is NOT a medical/psychological issue.
It sounds like he has a strong personality and is going to require strong discipline at home to deal with it.
Our youngest (10)was like this (and can still be...). It has required years of strong consistent discipline to feel like we aren't hitting our heads against a wall constantly. We never had these issues with the first two, and sometimes I am sick of the necessary vigilance, but it IS getting better. We had to start when he was 3...and this year is the first year I feel like EVERYTHING isn't a battle--in fact, I have been remarkably surprised how few battles we have anymore (the most being when he is tired or hungry...but he is surprisingly even dealing better in those circumstances)
If he argues with one of us, he immediately goes to his room for 15 min. If he argues again (has a tendancy to argue EVERYTHING) he is up there for the night. If there was any verbal lashing out I would do the same thing--against parents, siblings or friends.
I wouldn't worry about his complaining about activities, then being happy after. This is a fairly common behavior. AS LONG as you can get him to the activity, ignore the complaints. BUT if you must physically force him to go (pulling, carrying, etc.)--this is SIMPLE. NO MORE activities.
I don't know how you are responding to his inappropriate rants--your husband says you coddle him. Do you? IF you do, realize that your behavior is encouraging his actions. Tough pill to swallow, I know--I've been there! Now, maybe that isn't it...I cannot begin to know; I can only share my experiences.
But I have taught for 20 years & can say that consistent firm discipline has helped me to have very very few discipline problems over the years.
I was speaking w/ a principal recently who said they have a kindergartener who was crying (RAGING) for SEVEN hours a day. When asked how long she has been doing that she said since she was 2. When asked why, the little girl said cuz if she did it long enough they call her mom & she gets to go be with her sister!!!That principal said, well, game over. You cry, I get you, you stay in my office. period. Behavior was gone in only THREE days! But three LONG days for the principal--but a good investment in the rest of the year in peace.
GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[Calliaz]

My neighbor across the street has aspergers and I don't think it's quite like that but probably similar.

No two kids with Asperger Syndrome are alike. But, with autism, it's a spectrum. PDD-NOS, Asperger, High-Functioning Autism, and typical autism all have underlying similarities. So, it doesn't really matter what he might have. He could have none of those. I highly recommend taking him to a psychologist or developmental pediatrician who does autism diagnosis and other testing to find out what is going on. It's hard to do and scary, but diagnosis does not change who your child is. It gives you the tools to help him with his challenges and work with his gifts.

Good luck--I hope you find some answers.

 

[KKB]

But I noticed several people who mentioned the kids were fine at school, but not at home....
One mentioned maybe it was due to the structure at school...
If your child is able to function WELL at school--but not at home, the first thing it to take a look at home environment:
1-Do you have a basic schedule at home (young children particularly seek this)?
2-Does your child have a snack when they get home and a family dinner at a relatively regular time--including protein, fresh fruits/veggies, milk?
3-Does your child have down time in the evening--no structured activities, just time to play or read for run?
4-Is there very limited or NO electronic devices on school nights? (including TV, video games, computer games)?
5-Is there a regular bedtime & routine each night?
6-Does your child get 10 hours of sleep night (recommended for elementary age children)?
7-How are you handling outbursts? Calmy? Consistenty? Quickly? Firmly? (oh, my--this is the hardest one for me--I come from a family of yellers!)
8-Does your child get some "fun" time with you daily?--this can be a visit after school over snack, visiting while making dinner, sharing a book at bedtime
These are VERY VERY important--yet free and relatively simple--strategies for making a child feel in control of life. Children are comforted by structure routines.
I am NOT discounting anyone's diagnosis here. 20 years of teaching, 15 years of parenting & a Master's in Education & Ed. Psych is saying--you need to be sure all these things are in place BEFORE trying meds or worrying about a diagnosis. There ARE children who need professional help. BUT having seen a HUGE increase in the number of students diagnosed a number of syndromes that were basically nonexistant 20 years ago--and behavior problems have increased. I have observed SO many parents who would rather give their kid a pill & let the TV or video game babysit them than to do the hard work of parenting.
PLEASE do not misunderstand. I am NOT NOT NOT saying anyone here has done this to their child--I have taught many children who are thriving due to proper diagnosis & medication.
I AM saying that if these structures & routines are not in place, it is difficult to tell if it is internal or environmental for the child.
Good luck, OP--my son is the most charming infuriating child I know--intense is the word I use to describe him--just trying to get him to channel that intensity for good more than evil...

 

[TnTWalter]

Thank you guys so much. I am tearing up with gratitude.

I'm still absorbing. But thank you.

Regarding structure...we are a very scheduled family which is part of my problem dealing with it...we eat dinner together as a family, the kids get story time with dad before bed and the same songs sung every night. After school the sit on the island with a snack and tell me about their day and do homework...bedtime is between 8:30 and 9 every night.

We've always stuck to a schedule thinking it best for the kids...

son is fighting with a friend right now.

Trish

 

[lucigo]

My neighbor across the street has aspergers and I don't think it's quite like that but probably similar.

Thank you.

You are taking a good first step. My son was diagnosed by a "team" of doctors, a developmental pediatrician made the final call. Your above sentence concerns me a bit. If you have met one child on the spectrum you have seen one type of ASD. Every child with autism/Aspergers is different. We have LOTS of friends in our community and although my son has at least one thing in common with each one, he is VERY different from each of them also.

Now thats not to say your son has ASD. One idea for you, If you would like to see what autism/Aspergers looks like, do a search on youtube and take a look at posted home videos.