Train could pass though Disney World

[DanBoris]

This is so premature. The language used even by Virgin is plan, propose, in negotiations, etc. The portion from Miami to OIA has actually been moving forward, and permitting is underway. Getting from OIA to Meadow Woods is something that can happen pretty easily since the tracks exist now, though use agreements or parcel acquisition has not happened. Getting from there to Disney and then Tampa is still something that has not gone past the proposal stage. There are not train tracks, parcels and ROW have not been acquired yet, and no agreements have been finalized with FDOT as the plan is to run down the ROW of SR 417 to I-4. The proposed station at WDW from the Brightline Proposal would be at World Drive and I-4 just across from Celebration and the High School. None of this portion has been submitted for permitting yet, as they cannot proceed until they have either parcel ownership or agreements in place for use agreements and easements. To say this would be able to happen at the same time as the airport is extremely pie in the sky.

Yeah, I love this line from the article "Virgin Trains president Patrick Goddard said of a time frame that hinges on permits and financing". So beyond small details like financing, permits and construction this is a done deal.

 

[AurumPunzel]

All that is very true, but has almost no parallels in the Brightline situation. Brightline, as I've mentioned before, is NOT HSR. It's fast rail, not high speed, and is therefore not subject to the special crossing regulations that caused the majority of the cost overruns in the California plans. In addition, Brightline already has right-of-way through almost the entire route that it is planned for; it's all on routes that existed pre-war, and that remain in railroad hands.

Of course, this is not to say that Brightline can't develop problems; any industry can, and particularly one that hasn't had a new private company started in decades. (Right now, the most likely issues to cause difficulty are ridership numbers relative to operational costs; Brightline is probably too posh to be sustained in its present style.) However, the particular issues that have crippled the California project are not likely to cause major problems in Florida.

Not to mention that it's still diesel, so you won't get the same performance from the Siemens Charger SCB-40 as you would from, let's say a Siemens Velaro HSEMU.

 

[ljmiii]

Well... sort of. The Eurotunnel got built because there was no alternative....

That's the thing, Brightline or Virgin or whatever isn't really doing anything unique....

The Eurotunnel got build because the 'Chunnel' had been a dream since the invention of the railroad, it had become technically feasible, and England and France wanted it built - the alternatives worked fine. The challenge was to find investors willing to pour $10 Billion into a financial fantasy. Of course, once the Eurotunnel was built the operating costs were low enough to drive ferries and sea based cross channel container shipping out of business.

Why I find them similar is that if Virgin/Brightline builds the rails and stations from West Palm to WDW, Orlando Airport, and Tampa they can undercut the price of air travel and depending on how you count auto as well. That it will be Virgin/Brightline who profits and not whoever picks up the financial pieces is a different question.

Lastly, I would argue that what Virgin/Brightline is doing IS unique...for the US.

 

[jknezek]

The Eurotunnel got build because the 'Chunnel' had been a dream since the invention of the railroad, it had become technically feasible, and England and France wanted it built - the alternatives worked fine. The challenge was to find investors willing to pour $10 Billion into a financial fantasy. Of course, once the Eurotunnel was built the operating costs were low enough to drive ferries and sea based cross channel container shipping out of business.

Why I find them similar is that if Virgin/Brightline builds the rails and stations from West Palm to WDW, Orlando Airport, and Tampa they can undercut the price of air travel and depending on how you count auto as well. That it will be Virgin/Brightline who profits and not whoever picks up the financial pieces is a different question.

Lastly, I would argue that what Virgin/Brightline is doing IS unique...for the US.

When I say no alternative, I say no alternative to not finishing it once it was half done. Not for the purpose itself.

There is what? One direct flight an hour between Orlando and Miami on American? Four per day between Ft. Lauderdale and Orlando on Spirit? None from Orlando to West Palm or Tampa on standard commercial providers. I don't think Virgin/Brightline can get enough traffic undercutting airlines. They need to find a way to make it attractive to drivers. That's not completely a financial incentive. Or a time incentive. It's both plus a less stress incentive. And this where trains in the U.S. have mostly failed.

I used to live in that corridor. 5 or 6 years between Ft. Lauderdale, Boca Raton and West Palm Beach. I grew up in New Jersey. While the traffic along the southeast Florida Coast is impressive, it's nothing compared to the traffic from D.C. to Boston. Maybe in another 20 years. I think Brightline has a good idea, I just think its borderline right now.

Having to use debt financing, rather than equity, makes that borderline proposition a whole lot worse.

As for unique, I don't buy it. Sure, first private passenger train line since the early 70s. But the point is, we had those. For decades. They couldn't compete against the car. They still can't compete against the car except in the Northeast Megalopolis. And even then, it's only because all the track expense and repair work, at least the small amount that is actually being done, is subsidized. That's a big hill to climb for a corporation that has to pay debts and make a profit.

I love trains, I hope they make it. But call me skeptical. Especially after this round of financing. The equity guys knew what they were being asked to buy and decided to pass. The bond guys were just way more desperate for any kind of product so they took a chance on something that is very, very, unlikely to succeed. Unrated tax free bonds is a dark and tenuous area of the financial markets. The fact that Brightline had to tap that route tells me a lot more about their business prospects than anything else.

 

[Diz Bee]

To all you nay sayers our there....
I posted something about this a while back, I’m going to tell you all once again. This has been in development for years... I know this first hand. So you can come up with really great logical arguments all you want... it’s very educational to say the least but, I’m telling you one more time, this train thing is really really close to being a done deal. The stars are aligned on this one... not a rumor. Argue amongst yourselves and in 2 years I can finally say...
I told you so!

 

[Diz Bee]

if you live here... you would understand the traffic here on the highways is deadly! Horrible congestion, people driving illegally, drunk drivers, tourist, and it’s a no fault state. This would solve a lot of issues for Disney. Although Magical Express is pretty magical... you’re really taking your life and putting it into a Mears (not Disney) drivers hands. It’s pretty amazing that there hasn’t been fatalities.
Florida drivers are mostly not from Florida and have no idea where they’re going or how to drive. Just saying...

 

[ljmiii]

When I say no alternative, I say no alternative to not finishing it once it was half done....

Fair enough...and sorry for misunderstanding you.

There is what? One direct flight an hour between Orlando and Miami on American?

Seven per day...but close enough. I actually looked into this when I was trying to add two days at WDW after a DCL cruise out of Miami a few months ago. The problem was that if I couldn't make the 9:00AM flight I was stuck until 1:35PM. That and it doesn't operate like a true 'shuttle flight' with easily changeable tickets.

As for unique, I don't buy it. Sure, first private passenger train line since the early 70s. But the point is, we had those. For decades. They couldn't compete against the car...

I would more say private passenger railroads couldn't compete with air travel and 'free' roads costing over $100 billion (over a trillion dollars inflation adjusted). But even that couldn't kill off the better run railroads. For example, it took a forced merger with the NY Central to kill off the still quite profitable Pennsylvania railroad. (I heartily recommend "The Wreck of the Penn Central").

But to me the reason Virgin is 'unique' is that in the US trains have been seen for the past 50 years as a way people too poor to own a car get around the country. The idea that trains can be marketed and sold as a premium product is rather foreign.

Having to use debt financing, rather than equity, makes that borderline proposition a whole lot worse...The fact that Brightline had to tap that route tells me a lot more about their business prospects than anything else.

I completely agree. As I alluded to earlier, my measure of Virgin/Brightline's 'success' is whether or not the rail gets laid and the stations get built. I expect their debt investors to see the same return as Eurostar investors.

 

[writerguyfl]

I doubt they really care if it is an easier way for people to get to their property from the airport. They already have a pretty good system for that. Rail to Disney won't replace Magic Express. Magic Express is more flexible and can drop people right off at their hotel. A train won't do that .. and will likely run a LOT less than Magical Express buses.

I strongly agree. This plan is not about getting people from the Orlando International Airport (MCO) to Disney World. It won't replace Disney's Magical Express.

I always thought MCO was an odd termination point. The thing that Brightline has over the local commuter rail service (Tri-Rail) here in South Florida is that Brightline runs right though the downtown areas. There are tons of office buildings, retail, tourism locations, housing, and hotels within walking distance of the current stations.

None of that was true for the MCO station. Continuing further into Orlando with the two additional stations makes more sense to me.

Now if there is a train station to WDW, it could (eventually - by connecting to other train routes) be an alternative to get to Disney for those who traditionally drive or fly short distances, but it would have to be as cheap as driving or cheaper than flying -- which I doubt since trains (like planes) charge per person.

People don't always choose the cheapest mode of transportation. Some folks will pay a little extra for a better experience. Brightline has two classes of service. I've personally only experienced their lower class. It's a MUCH nicer experience than economy-class air travel. I'd actually argue it's nicer than the first class service you'd see on a short hop between Florida airports.

Also, don't assume that everyone has cars. You can easily live in Miami or Fort Lauderdale without a car. (I've done it for years.) Here in Fort Lauderdale, there are 4 or 5 high rise apartment buildings under construction within an eight block radius of the Brightline station. Some of the people moving into those buildings won't have cars. Clearly, they aren't going to be going to Disney World every week. I'm only mentioning it because people tend to forget that not everyone owns a car.

I think vacation traffic to florida is increasing along with WDW's increase. I think many people are now adding Disney as part of a greater florida vacation. Many airlines partner with train service, and I see this as being an extension of that concept. I think it will bring in more European traffic via the Virgin connection.

Correct. In 2018, Florida welcomed a record 126.1 million out-of-state visitors. That number was 6.2 percent over the previous record set in 2017.
Source: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/bus...it-florida-tourism-record-20190220-story.html

And approximately 10.8 million of those tourists were from overseas.
Source: https://www.visitflorida.org/resources/research/

I tried without luck to find some statistics to confirm your thoughts about whether overseas tourists split time across multiple regions of the state. The only interesting figure I found was a 2011 factoid that said the average length-of-stay for overseas tourists was 11.2 nights.
Source: https://skift.com/2013/02/19/floridas-2012-tourism-numbers-set-a-new-state-record/

Without data to confirm, it's possible they might be staying in one place for all those nights. But, I think you are correct in thinking that many of those folks will likely split time in two or more locations.

Any way to make it easier to move people across the state is likely to increase tourism, particularly for overseas tourists. I'm speculating, but I'd imagine those people will pay more to travel by train if it means avoiding the hassle/stress of driving in a foreign country.

Additionally, if overseas tourists are looking at their options, they're more likely to choose a brand they know (aka Virgin) than one they've never heard of (aka Brightline). So, the Virgin branding is a really smart move, in general.

The proposed station at WDW from the Brightline Proposal would be at World Drive and I-4 just across from Celebration and the High School.

That seems really far out. I'm not doubting your statement...just the wisdom of choosing that location.

For anyone unfamiliar, here is a map showing the World Drive/Interstate 4 intersection in relation to some of the southern-most locations at Walt Disney World.

Link to Bing Maps: https://binged.it/2OSIih9

I would have thought that a station at the EPSN Wide World of Sports location would be smarter. To get there, they'd probably need to run down the median of West Osceola Parkway. That probably adds more complexity as I don't think that road falls under the authority of same people who run the Central Florida Greeneway (417).

 

[Spridell]

To all you nay sayers our there....
I posted something about this a while back, I’m going to tell you all once again. This has been in development for years... I know this first hand. So you can come up with really great logical arguments all you want... it’s very educational to say the least but, I’m telling you one more time, this train thing is really really close to being a done deal. The stars are aligned on this one... not a rumor. Argue amongst yourselves and in 2 years I can finally say...
I told you so!

I do agree with you.

I live in Palm Beach and I remember years ago when Brightline was announced everyone said no way its going to happen etc....... And sure enough it did. Bring in Virgin and Branson now and you have a bigger name and more money available. And also remember the State of Florida is firmly behind Brightline. They played a big part in its development and I can see them also again playing a big part getting the train up to Orlando.

I think the connection to Meadow Woods Sunrail is a 100% done deal. That is happening. Now the connection to World Drive 50/50. But even connecting to Meadow Woods is a plus since you are only 20 min away from the parks. People are talking about flying from Miami and FLL to Orlando. The Brightline would probably be faster than flying. Remember u need to get to the airport early, security, weather delays, etc..... With a train you really don't have those problems.

Now, I have been on the Brightline about half dozen times and I can tell you the experience is amazing. I have been on trains all over the country and some in Europe and Brightline is right up there with some of the nicer ones I have been on in Europe. The stations are top notch, big seats, friendly employees and if you pay the extra for First Class you get unlimited food and drinks (alcohol too) for the entire trip, and there is a buffet for you at the station.

For me personally being an AP and DVC member that travels a lot from Palm Beach to Disney I would use the Meadow Woods station all the time and if it did make it to World Drive that would just be the icing on the cake.

 

[middlechild]

Never underestimate the amount of money required to unlock usage of track from existing ownership. Freight lines are profitable today meaning time for passenger stock is at a premium. Also cost to upgrade track to passenger rating, liability coverage, etc are all possible road blocks to passengers. In the northeast, the liability and track upgrade costs have played a role in delaying efforts for MTBA trains to come north into NH. Freight demand is expected to increase, which increases real cost to carve out passenger time:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec...ion-trends-to-watch-for-in-2018/#65c615a5f16a
Just because track exists, the ability to run passenger rail is not a given.

 

[sachilles]

I'm not a transportation planner or engineer, so I don't know a darn thing.....but the station location does seem like an odd choice. That being said, the way Disney develops stuff, it may be in consideration of future growth.
For me, I'd be looking to place the station at one of the resorts, to make it a feature. You've then immediately tied into the transportation network at WDW resort. That way a certain resort can gobble up all the business related to the rail service, and structure the packages accordingly. The baggage service could be integrated etc. If the train station resort isn't what they want, they can certainly move on to another, but they'd be in network at that point and still be fairly easy to deal with.
Otherwise, you have to then bus or otherwise transport them from the train station.

This is blatant wish casting. Given Walt's love for trains, the pipe dream is to make a resort dedicated to the theme of trains and the rail industry. Have this train have a stop at this resort. Put it in that development window on the epcot monorail line, not far from Ft Fort Wilderness. Bring back the Train from FT wilderness and create a loop with the Fort, Reflections, Wilderness lodge and the TTC. Wasn't there a hotel concept prior to the copper creek cabins that was some sort of "junction"? That location might not work with the brightline concept, but it's fun to dream.

 

[Mr. Drauer]

I'm not a transportation planner or engineer, so I don't know a darn thing.....but the station location does seem like an odd choice. That being said, the way Disney develops stuff, it may be in consideration of future growth.
For me, I'd be looking to place the station at one of the resorts, to make it a feature. You've then immediately tied into the transportation network at WDW resort. That way a certain resort can gobble up all the business related to the rail service, and structure the packages accordingly. The baggage service could be integrated etc. If the train station resort isn't what they want, they can certainly move on to another, but they'd be in network at that point and still be fairly easy to deal with.
Otherwise, you have to then bus or otherwise transport them from the train station.

This is blatant wish casting. Given Walt's love for trains, the pipe dream is to make a resort dedicated to the theme of trains and the rail industry. Have this train have a stop at this resort. Put it in that development window on the epcot monorail line, not far from Ft Fort Wilderness. Bring back the Train from FT wilderness and create a loop with the Fort, Reflections, Wilderness lodge and the TTC. Wasn't there a hotel concept prior to the copper creek cabins that was some sort of "junction"? That location might not work with the brightline concept, but it's fun to dream.

The station location is based upon the fact that there was already a study done for the proposed high speed rail from Orlando to Tampa and this was the Disney station studied and approved. Since Disney already had this area approved, it was really the only option to offer, unless Brightline decided to do a brand new study - which means time (2 years or so) and money, which does not move the project forward. Again, they do not even have train tracks over there. If the high speed line was going to go in, it would have run from the airport down SR 528 and into the median of I-4 west to Tampa. That was going to be a brand new line - now Brightline is proposing to go from the airport south on an existing spur to SR 417 where it ties into Sun Rail at Meadowwoods, and then on a brand new line along SR 417 to I-4. The location means that the line would be able to have a station right at World Drive without having to build additional line into Disney. Disney is certainly not going to build its own set of tracks for this, but they are certainly on board with having the line provide access to their property. All of the property along,near,adjacent etc. to WDW is high dollar commercial land, and not exactly the kind of property that is going to easily be given over for a rail line to bisect it. Even still, any and all parcels that would be part of a line would be subject to NEPA evaluation if they were not included in the original High SPeed Line study, or anything that Brightline has had approved to date (which is not much in this area - only the line from Miami to Port Canaveral, and from the port to OIA).

 

[mikebb]

Question for those of you who are looking forward to this and comparing to other forms of transportation...

At what price point would you be looking to Brightline as a realistic alternative to what's out there today? My concern with the overall plan is not only that the total potential ridership is on the low side, but that the price would be on the high side.

Take driving as a baseline. Figure about $75 per carload to drive round-trip from South FL to Disney (180 miles each way - $50 in gas, plus ~$12.50 tolls each way from Lake Worth to 417.) That money gets your family of 4 there and back, but of course is the most stressful.

Compare to today's rail alternative - Amtrak. I recently took a one-way Silver Service train home from Disney (DW/DD had to head back from a weekend trip while I stayed in Orlando for work) and I paid $38 for a single ticket, very reasonable. Add in ~$25 for Uber from the resort to Kissimmee Amtrak station (and then one home). Relaxing ride, and total travel time was comparable to driving. For a single person, it made perfect sense, but for a family of four, the economy of scale gives driving a big leg-up, and you're looking at almost $300 for the Amtrak round-trip (a family of 3 in my case, but still almost 3x the price of driving.)

Figuring on Brightline being a step up from Amtrak (both in service/quality and price), this could be a $4-500 round trip for the family? I really want this to work, but at that price point, it's not making a ton of sense (at least for us), relaxing or not.

 

[NotUrsula]

I don't think that the train is going to be heavily targeting local families; I think that the focus for local riders will be young adults and retirees. It is much more normal for folks coming out of college today to NOT own a car than it was even a decade ago; they are consciously choosing to skip the expense of car ownership if they can, using rideshare services to fill in the gaps. Conversely, many retirees no longer want to deal with driving when they travel, and are happy to ride public transit if the trains/buses are clean and safe (Greyhound need not apply.)

Honestly, there has been a sea-change in the attitude toward driving by Americans born after about 1995. Many of them choose not to do it at all (even in my state, where there is very little good public transit, the average age to first get your driver's license has been increasing, because teens are putting off bothering to learn.)

 

[ljmiii]

At what price point would you be looking to Brightline as a realistic alternative to what's out there today? My concern with the overall plan is not only that the total potential ridership is on the low side, but that the price would be on the high side.

Take driving as a baseline. Figure about $75 per carload to drive round-trip from South FL to Disney (180 miles each way - $50 in gas, plus ~$12.50 tolls each way from Lake Worth to 417.) That money gets your family of 4 there and back, but of course is the most stressful.

Except that the true cost is much higher - driving does put 360 miles on the car. Obviously it varies based on the value of your vehicle and the price of gas where you live but the nationwide average cost of driving is 0.58/mile - or $208 + tolls in your example. And downtown Miami to MK is around 235 miles each way - or $272 + tolls.

Compare to today's rail alternative - Amtrak. I recently took a one-way Silver Service train home from Disney ... and I paid $38 for a single ticket, very reasonable. Add in ~$25 for Uber from the resort to Kissimmee Amtrak station (and then one home)....but for a family of four, the economy of scale gives driving a big leg-up, and you're looking at almost $300 for the Amtrak round-trip (a family of 3 in my case, but still almost 3x the price of driving.)

The Silver Meteor is indeed a reasonable alternative at about 5 hours from Miami to Kissimmee...but it only runs once per day. The Silver Star also runs once per day...but takes 7 hours. And that is 'schedule hours' - I've yet to ride a long haul Amtrak train that arrived anywhere near 'on time'.

Figuring on Brightline being a step up from Amtrak (both in service/quality and price), this could be a $4-500 round trip for the family? I really want this to work, but at that price point, it's not making a ton of sense (at least for us), relaxing or not.

The other price point that matters is flying - American flies MIA to/from MCO 7 times a day at around $200 round trip and more like $250 if you want to sit with your kids.

All that said (and assuming a reasonable schedule), if they can do around $75 a ticket each way they'll get plenty of passengers. If they can do $50 a ticket they'll have LOTS of passengers.[/QUOTE]

 

[writerguyfl]

Never underestimate the amount of money required to unlock usage of track from existing ownership. Freight lines are profitable today meaning time for passenger stock is at a premium. Also cost to upgrade track to passenger rating, liability coverage, etc are all possible road blocks to passengers.

That's not an issue with Brightline/Virgin. The company was started as an offshoot of CSX Transportation. CSX is the freight train company that owns the tracks. The passenger train line were specifically built to avoid having to give priority to freight trains. This was done by double and triple tracking the line.

And the route from the east coast into Orlando will be new tracks that only Brightline/Virgin will be using.

Question for those of you who are looking forward to this and comparing to other forms of transportation...

At what price point would you be looking to Brightline as a realistic alternative to what's out there today? My concern with the overall plan is not only that the total potential ridership is on the low side, but that the price would be on the high side.

Take driving as a baseline. Figure about $75 per carload to drive round-trip from South FL to Disney (180 miles each way - $50 in gas, plus ~$12.50 tolls each way from Lake Worth to 417.) That money gets your family of 4 there and back, but of course is the most stressful.

Compare to today's rail alternative - Amtrak. I recently took a one-way Silver Service train home from Disney (DW/DD had to head back from a weekend trip while I stayed in Orlando for work) and I paid $38 for a single ticket, very reasonable. Add in ~$25 for Uber from the resort to Kissimmee Amtrak station (and then one home). Relaxing ride, and total travel time was comparable to driving. For a single person, it made perfect sense, but for a family of four, the economy of scale gives driving a big leg-up, and you're looking at almost $300 for the Amtrak round-trip (a family of 3 in my case, but still almost 3x the price of driving.)

Figuring on Brightline being a step up from Amtrak (both in service/quality and price), this could be a $4-500 round trip for the family? I really want this to work, but at that price point, it's not making a ton of sense (at least for us), relaxing or not.

I don't think you are the target customer for Brightline/Virgin. For South Florida locals, they are probably going after the dual-income/no-kids demographic. There are a quite a few high rise luxury condos within walking distance of the Fort Lauderdale station. And there are 4 high rise apartments being built in the area, as well. Those apartments run $1,800 to $3,000 per month.

The Brightline/Virgin customer is probably the same person who goes out to eat multiple times each week at restaurants that cost $30 for an entree. That person also doesn't blink at spending $18 for a single cocktail. I doubt they will balk at spending $100 to get to Disney World when they're paying $500/night to stay at a Disney Deluxe Resort.

It's also worth noting that your figures do not include the cost to park. This train is connecting two tourist areas. Lots of Central Floridians will potentially use the train to come here to South Florida. Here where I live, the "normal" price to park at a hotel along Fort Lauderdale Beach is about $45/night. So, you'd need to add $90-135 to your calculations.

Perhaps more importantly, the other target customer will be some of those 10.8 million overseas tourists I referenced in an earlier post. Let's play with some numbers:

Imagine if one-third of those overseas tourists split their Florida vacation between Orlando and South Florida (or a cruise from South Florida). That's 3,240,000 people annually. Assuming they only make a single one-way trip, that's 9,700 tourists transiting the state on a daily basis. If Brightline/Virgin captures only 20% of those trips, it's 1,953 daily trips. The current train sets can carry 240 passengers. Thus, they could fill 8 full trains with those tourists every day.

Obviously, those numbers are based on a ton of assumptions. But, I think they are reasonable assumptions that are pretty conservative.

In the end, Brightline/Virgin doesn't need to fill their trains with people like you to be successful. They don't need to be cheaper than driving...they need to be cheaper than flying or renting a car. And honestly, they probably don't even need to be cheaper. Many tourists will gladly pay extra to avoid the hassles of renting and driving a car in a foreign country.

I'm not a transportation planner or engineer, so I don't know a darn thing.....but the station location does seem like an odd choice. That being said, the way Disney develops stuff, it may be in consideration of future growth.

For me, I'd be looking to place the station at one of the resorts, to make it a feature. You've then immediately tied into the transportation network at WDW resort. That way a certain resort can gobble up all the business related to the rail service, and structure the packages accordingly. The baggage service could be integrated etc. If the train station resort isn't what they want, they can certainly move on to another, but they'd be in network at that point and still be fairly easy to deal with.

That's why I thought of the ESPN Wide World of Sports complex as a better location for a train station. There's at least some infrastructure already in place. It seems like a good location for additional value-type resort. Disney could charge a premium to all the sports groups that are attending events/competitions at that ESPN complex.

The station location is based upon the fact that there was already a study done for the proposed high speed rail from Orlando to Tampa and this was the Disney station studied and approved. Since Disney already had this area approved, it was really the only option to offer, unless Brightline decided to do a brand new study - which means time (2 years or so) and money, which does not move the project forward. Again, they do not even have train tracks over there. If the high speed line was going to go in, it would have run from the airport down SR 528 and into the median of I-4 west to Tampa. That was going to be a brand new line - now Brightline is proposing to go from the airport south on an existing spur to SR 417 where it ties into Sun Rail at Meadowwoods, and then on a brand new line along SR 417 to I-4. The location means that the line would be able to have a station right at World Drive without having to build additional line into Disney. Disney is certainly not going to build its own set of tracks for this, but they are certainly on board with having the line provide access to their property. All of the property along,near,adjacent etc. to WDW is high dollar commercial land, and not exactly the kind of property that is going to easily be given over for a rail line to bisect it. Even still, any and all parcels that would be part of a line would be subject to NEPA evaluation if they were not included in the original High SPeed Line study, or anything that Brightline has had approved to date (which is not much in this area - only the line from Miami to Port Canaveral, and from the port to OIA).

That makes complete sense. It's a disappointing location for a station, but it does make perfect business sense.

 

[RRB]

I found the following map routes on an Urban Planning forum, Brightline Thread. they were posted in December of last year. the first map is an overview, the second show what looks to be route options around WDW. Obviously the green option would bring it closest to WDW.

 

[Mikey15]

I found the following map routes on an Urban Planning forum, Brightline Thread. they were posted in December of last year. the first map is an overview, the second show what looks to be route options around WDW. Obviously the green option would bring it closest to WDW.

Thanks for sharing.

Looking at this from a civil engineering perspective, number of new bridges/crossings/roadwork needed it's really looking like it should follow something like the blue/green alignment and then meet back up with I-4. If it followed the red alignment the whole way, they'd have to significantly reconstruct and widen the 417 near the start/end toll plaza (right by the hospital visible in the aerial). If they did go that red alignment and alter the toll area, they could cross I-4 there and place the station on the north side of the World Drive / I-4 interchange, rather than trying to go down the median there and then crossing back south to put it near the high school.

Given the amount of work that looks like it would be needed there though, I think the blue/green route, placing a station near Wide World of Sports makes a whole lot of sense. Then if/when they build the rest of the route to Tampa they can very easily cross back to the I-4 median.

 

[ljmiii]

I found the following map routes on an Urban Planning forum, Brightline Thread. they were posted in December of last year. the first map is an overview, the second show what looks to be route options around WDW. Obviously the green option would bring it closest to WDW.

Thank you very much for posting. If the tracks do follow the green/blue route I would expect somewhere near the Osceola Pkwy and either Palmetto Place or Century Drive would offer a great station location.

 

[writerguyfl]

That first map has nothing to do with this project. That map was related to government-run high-speed rail line. Then Governor Rick Scott killed that project way back in 2011. The Brightline/Virgin proposal will definitely not go to the Orange County Convention Center. Additionally, I don't believe there will be any stops between Orlando and Tampa (if that gets built).

As for the second map, the east/west part of the green line will never happen because it would require purchasing the right-of-way through what I assume is privately owned land. It would also likely require zoning changes.

The blue line runs along Osceola Parkway. While it's possible to run a train line along the road, Brightline/Virgin would need to get approval. According to Wikipedia, Osceola County maintains that road.

The red line is the Central Florida Greeneway (State Road 417). That road is owned by the Central Florida Expressway Authority (CFX). Sticking to one route controlled by one entity makes things much easier for Brightline/Virgin. According to press reports, they've already started negotiations with CFX.

Based on that fact as well as the permitting issues that Mr. Drauer noted in earlier posts, I think the red line route is the only logical choice. As much as some of us would love a train station at an existing site at Disney World, I think that's just a pipe dream.