Trying to help a friend; can Disney force someone in a wheelchair to leave the chair or ECV in order to ride the attraction?

[AprilsZoo]

You are probably thinkiing from a point of view of: I am in my motorized wheelchair all the time and am a pro at it. I am a careful person who will take care not to hit people.

Disney is thinking: Grandma is using a ECV for the first time and doesn't have control. She doesn't have a good idea where the front and back are. Others often jump in front of ECVs not understanding they won't stop.

So Disney thinks it best that there are no motorized vehicles in the area because they can't know who is "good at it" and who isn't. For everyone's safety they don't allow any. However, they do make sure you can ride the attraction. You were offered a manual wheel chair and provided someone to push it.
Does that take away your independence? yes But does it allow you to ride the ride? also yes.

Perfectly said, and clearer than my explanation.

 

[catm]

[/QUOTE

yes, I understand this. This was not for things like the treehouse. This was for rides like haunted mansion. They weren't given the option to use the wheelchair entrance and transfer there, or anything else. Just told they had to park the wheelchair in stroller parking and stand in the regular line like everyone else.

Just at Disney World last week. For Haunted Mansion I was allowed to stay in my ECV until just before the moving walkway onto the ride. Then they asked if I could walk or would I need the walkway slowed down or stopped. They definitely were as accommodating as they could be. Don't know why there is a difference at Disneyland, seems like it should be a corporate wide policy. Maybe the cast member just wasn't trained in the right way?

 

[Firepath]

I literally just got back. I have a manual chair. Every CM asked if I can walk ( I can’t other than a few staggering steps) and none took my chair without asking. They always brought it back as close as possible to where you get out. They don’t want any safety issues. Many people can walk just fine if they have to but some can’t, so they ask. They can also slow down or stop conveyers if needed.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

You are probably thinkiing from a point of view of: I am in my motorized wheelchair all the time and am a pro at it. I am a careful person who will take care not to hit people.

Disney is thinking: Grandma is using a ECV for the first time and doesn't have control. She doesn't have a good idea where the front and back are. Others often jump in front of ECVs not understanding they won't stop.

So Disney thinks it best that there are no motorized vehicles in the area because they can't know who is "good at it" and who isn't. For everyone's safety they don't allow any. However, they do make sure you can ride the attraction. You were offered a manual wheel chair and provided someone to push it.
Does that take away your independence? yes But does it allow you to ride the ride? also yes.

That's a reasonable viewpoint, but it's not what the law says. The ADA (specifically the 2010 amendment) says a) a motorized wheelchair is considered a wheelchair, whereas a scooter is not; b) wheelchairs must be allowed to go anywhere a member of the public can go; c) non-wheelchairs (e.g. scooters) can be restricted IF there is a safety concern, but d) it can't be based on stereotypes about driving or people who use the devices.

The entire point of the ADA is to enable people with disabilities to have our independence. It's not just a side benefit that can be ignored if it's inconvenient; it's the whole point. Saying it's ok to take independence by putting a person in a wheelchair they cannot maneuver themselves so they can be pushed, instead of letting them drive their own wheelchair that is - legally and practically speaking - identical to the push option, is untenable. The ADA doesn't guarantee access to people who are good drivers of their mobility devices, or people who use only a certain dimension of wheelchair, or people who never knock into anything with their crutches. It guarantees access to everyone. It specifically states that the person who determines what device to use is the person with the disability - and only that person. And once the person with a disability shows up in that device, that device has to be given access.

I was pleasantly surprised when we went to Universal this weekend, because everyone complains about their accessibility...but we found it much more in line with the law than Disney's. Universal doesn't allow scooters/ECVs in their queues because they have too many narrow turns, but they allow wheelchairs of all types (electric, manual, hybrid, power assisted, whatever). I'm not sure why we're supposed to be ok with Disney ignoring the law and making up their own standards.

 

[SueM in MN]

I was pleasantly surprised when we went to Universal this weekend, because everyone complains about their accessibility...but we found it much more in line with the law than Disney's. Universal doesn't allow scooters/ECVs in their queues because they have too many narrow turns, but they allow wheelchairs of all types (electric, manual, hybrid, power assisted, whatever). I'm not sure why we're supposed to be ok with Disney ignoring the law and making up their own standards.

Besides Flight of Passage, I’m curious what attractions at WDW have not allowed you to use your power wheelchair?
My DD doesn’t bring her power wheelchair to WDW, partly because of concern about air travel and partly concern about fatigue using it for a whole day in crowds.
We are pretty aware of power wheelchairs and have seen many with us in lines and using the wheelchair accessible ride vehicles over the years.
I‘ve also communicated with Disability Services multiple times and consistently gotten the answer that power wheelchairs are handled the same as manual wheelchairs, with exception for those that don’t fit in the 36 inch wide by 52 inch long allowed size for wheelchairs/mobility devices and that some accessible ride Vehicles can‘t accommodate a rider plus wheelchair weight of greater than 700 pounds.
I‘ve also talked with some people who used their power wheelchairs at WDW who told me they had no issues using it in line. So, just curious where you have not been allowed to use it.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

Besides Flight of Passage, I’m curious what attractions at WDW have not allowed you to use your power wheelchair?
My DD doesn’t bring her power wheelchair to WDW, partly because of concern about air travel and partly concern about fatigue using it for a whole day in crowds.
We are pretty aware of power wheelchairs and have seen many with us in lines and using the wheelchair accessible ride vehicles over the years.
I‘ve also communicated with Disability Services multiple times and consistently gotten the answer that power wheelchairs are handled the same as manual wheelchairs, with exception for those that don’t fit in the 36 inch wide by 52 inch long allowed size for wheelchairs/mobility devices and that some accessible ride Vehicles can‘t accommodate a rider plus wheelchair weight of greater than 700 pounds.
I‘ve also talked with some people who used their power wheelchairs at WDW who told me they had no issues using it in line. So, just curious where you have not been allowed to use it.

Pirates is the other one that springs to mind. They allow people to use their personal manual chairs, but nothing with a motor (including some people had reported having to fight to use their manual chairs with power-assist). I was told specifically at both rides that guests using power wheelchairs must transfer into a manual chair. I pointed out the small footprint and turning radius of my chair (it's smaller than the manual loaners they offer), but every CM I spoke with reiterated the policy.

Oh, and Small World, where they made me transfer into the manual chair at the boat because they didn't think they could keep the power chair still because the back wheels were smaller than expected and they weren't sure the blocks would work. But I chalk that up to individual CMs rather than policy, especially since I was allowed to take my chair onto several boat rides at EPCOT without a problem.

 

[SueM in MN]

Pirates is the other one that springs to mind. They allow people to use their personal manual chairs, but nothing with a motor (including some people had reported having to fight to use their manual chairs with power-assist). I was told specifically at both rides that guests using power wheelchairs must transfer into a manual chair. I pointed out the small footprint and turning radius of my chair (it's smaller than the manual loaners they offer), but every CM I spoke with reiterated the policy.

Oh, and Small World, where they made me transfer into the manual chair at the boat because they didn't think they could keep the power chair still because the back wheels were smaller than expected and they weren't sure the blocks would work. But I chalk that up to individual CMs rather than policy, especially since I was allowed to take my chair onto several boat rides at EPCOT without a problem.

Ok. Those are specific attractions with specific reasons why they didn’t allow it.

For Pirates, boarding is in one building. Unloading is in another building down one floor from the attraction entrance. In the ‘way past’, people‘s personal manual wheelchairs were thrown onto the boat in the back row. They stopped that many years ago - the reasons I heard were staff injuries from lifting wheelchairs in and out and that a wheelchair was dislodged from the boat when it went down the flume part in the dark. ECVs were not allowed in line at that point mostly because taking a mobility device to the unload area required several stairs.
The attraction had a renovation that removed the stairs; that’s when they stopped putting wheelchairs in the boat with guests. They still prefer guests with manual wheelchairs to use an attraction wheelchair if possible because they have sometimes had issues getting the personal wheelchair to the unload point before the guest gets there. We have been able to bring DD’s personal wheelchair to the boarding area and have it brought to the unload area, but we needed to explain why the attraction wheelchair wouldn‘t work and also had to wait for staff to be available.
The other issue for Pirates is that getting a wheelchair from the boarding area to the unload area and back up to ground level involves using a very small elevator.

For Small World, the CMs are responsible for safety. If they make the judgment that the blocks they are provided won’t work for a particular wheelchair, they are not going to compromise on safety. There are only 2 boat rides at EPCOT; it’s possible the blocks are a little different and the boats are not exactly the same, so putting the blocks in place might work different.
I can say that we are asked to remove the anti-tip bars from DD’s manual wheelchair so the CM can place the blocks because the small wheels interfere with the blocks.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

Ok. Those are specific attractions with specific reasons why they didn’t allow it.

For Pirates, boarding is in one building. Unloading is in another building down one floor from the attraction entrance. In the ‘way past’, people‘s personal manual wheelchairs were thrown onto the boat in the back row. They stopped that many years ago - the reasons I heard were staff injuries from lifting wheelchairs in and out and that a wheelchair was dislodged from the boat when it went down the flume part in the dark. ECVs were not allowed in line at that point mostly because taking a mobility device to the unload area required several stairs.
The attraction had a renovation that removed the stairs; that’s when they stopped putting wheelchairs in the boat with guests. They still prefer guests with manual wheelchairs to use an attraction wheelchair if possible because they have sometimes had issues getting the personal wheelchair to the unload point before the guest gets there. We have been able to bring DD’s personal wheelchair to the boarding area and have it brought to the unload area, but we needed to explain why the attraction wheelchair wouldn‘t work and also had to wait for staff to be available.
The other issue for Pirates is that getting a wheelchair from the boarding area to the unload area and back up to ground level involves using a very small elevator.

For Small World, the CMs are responsible for safety. If they make the judgment that the blocks they are provided won’t work for a particular wheelchair, they are not going to compromise on safety. There are only 2 boat rides at EPCOT; it’s possible the blocks are a little different and the boats are not exactly the same, so putting the blocks in place might work different.
I can say that we are asked to remove the anti-tip bars from DD’s manual wheelchair so the CM can place the blocks because the small wheels interfere with the blocks.

Yes, I understand that CMs are responsible for safety. I didn't mean the experience at IASW was discriminatory or wrong or how-dare-they, just noted it as an odd experience given that I had been riding every other roll-on boat ride in the same chair without anyone worrying. Actually, I don't think they even use blocks on my chair in the EPCOT boat rides (LWTL, Mexico) because they see how firmly it stays.

Again, the issue with Pirates is that anyone who uses a full-manual chair is permitted to bring it through the queue and pick it up at the end. The same is not true of people who use a chair with any electrical elements to it (power chair or even manual chairs with power-assist). The reasons I have heard - ranging from 'but there's water in the building!' to 'the queue is too twisty' to 'the ending is in another building' doesn't explain why the chairs are treated differently from one another - and, strictly speaking, doesn't comport with the law. We tried explaining to the CMs why the attraction wheelchair wouldn't work and were ultimately told that I either needed to transfer to the attraction chair and have my partner push me, or I couldn't ride. We rode it once, it was a fiasco to deal with because my partner was holding me up on a ramp and I couldn't easily get out of the oversized chair, and we haven't ridden it since.

 

[MinnieMSue]

Yes, I understand that CMs are responsible for safety. I didn't mean the experience at IASW was discriminatory or wrong or how-dare-they, just noted it as an odd experience given that I had been riding every other roll-on boat ride in the same chair without anyone worrying. Actually, I don't think they even use blocks on my chair in the EPCOT boat rides (LWTL, Mexico) because they see how firmly it stays.

Again, the issue with Pirates is that anyone who uses a full-manual chair is permitted to bring it through the queue and pick it up at the end. The same is not true of people who use a chair with any electrical elements to it (power chair or even manual chairs with power-assist). The reasons I have heard - ranging from 'but there's water in the building!' to 'the queue is too twisty' to 'the ending is in another building' doesn't explain why the chairs are treated differently from one another - and, strictly speaking, doesn't comport with the law. We tried explaining to the CMs why the attraction wheelchair wouldn't work and were ultimately told that I either needed to transfer to the attraction chair and have my partner push me, or I couldn't ride. We rode it once, it was a fiasco to deal with because my partner was holding me up on a ramp and I couldn't easily get out of the oversized chair, and we haven't ridden it since.

maybe there is a risk of damage to the electric chair by them manually moving it that far. Perhaps someone’s chair was broken doing this or something and they no longer allow that to be done. I am just guessing here

 

[SueM in MN]

maybe there is a risk of damage to the electric chair by them manually moving it that far. Perhaps someone’s chair was broken doing this or something and they no longer allow that to be done. I am just guessing here

That’s a good point.
I know where inside at the boarding area wheelchairs are taken away and I also know the elevator from the unload area exits near the restrooms.
The Park map looks like the building is pretty small, so it looks like not much distance.


But, the satellite screenshot shows the actual building is much, much bigger than what the park map shows - overlaying the park map on the satellite, I marked the entrance to the attraction with a red X, my guess of the boarding area location with a ? and the place the elevator from the unload area comes out with 2 red XX

We don’t know what the actual backstage path is from the boarding area to the unload area, how far it actually is or what obstacles might be on the route. It’s very possible that something in that path is accessible to manual wheelchairs, but not power.

 

[KPeterso]

That’s a good point.
I know where inside at the boarding area wheelchairs are taken away and I also know the elevator from the unload area exits near the restrooms.
The Park map looks like the building is pretty small, so it looks like not much distance.
View attachment 625179

But, the satellite screenshot shows the actual building is much, much bigger than what the park map shows - overlaying the park map on the satellite, I marked the entrance to the attraction with a red X, my guess of the boarding area location with a ? and the place the elevator from the unload area comes out with 2 red XX

We don’t know what the actual backstage path is from the boarding area to the unload area, how far it actually is or what obstacles might be on the route. It’s very possible that something in that path is accessible to manual wheelchairs, but not power.

View attachment 625183

I have seen them walking around past the front of the ride with the wheelchairs/tagged strollers to get from the load to unload point. And often they have more than one (so pushing one and pulling another) and then having to put both in the extra tiny elevator and hitting the button and then running down the stairs to meet it. I think it is actually quite a hike to get the wheelchairs from load to unload. I know they always ask us if my Mom can stand several minutes to wait for the boat (probably gives them a head start to run it around) which for us is fine but I know for others an issue.

 

[SueM in MN]

I have seen them walking around past the front of the ride with the wheelchairs/tagged strollers to get from the load to unload point. And often they have more than one (so pushing one and pulling another) and then having to put both in the extra tiny elevator and hitting the button and then running down the stairs to meet it. I think it is actually quite a hike to get the wheelchairs from load to unload. I know they always ask us if my Mom can stand several minutes to wait for the boat (probably gives them a head start to run it around) which for us is fine but I know for others an issue.

That brings up a couple of good points.
I know when they started bringing around people’s personal manual wheelchairs, there were times when the guest arrived at the unload point before their wheelchair did. The Pirates ride is 9 minutes long, which is not a real long time to move a wheelchair.
My DD can’t stand, so that’s probably why they have had us wait when we’ve ridden.

If they had to bring power wheelchairs from the load area to the unload area, they would need to disengage the motors and push them. Power wheelchairs are very heavy - my daughter’s current one weighs over 400 pounds and pushing it for any distance is not easy. Wrangling it into the small elevator would be difficult and likely the CM would not fit into the elevator with it. Even if they could, pushing it out of the elevator would be hard and if a CM needs to pull it out at the unload area, that would be very difficult and possibly lead to injury.

 

[tramps’lady]

our experience on Pirates with my husband's air Hawk power wheelchair was that he could take it through the line but I had to push him, he was not allowed to use the motor. they had the chair waiting for us at the unload point and we used the exit elevator to get back upstairs.

we have since decided that we will just get a return time on my DAS and he will park and walk the shorter distance in the LL. one day when the line was a 10 minute wait we asked if we could do this to avoid the longer line distance and they let us.
seems like everything it is all in which CM you encounter

 

[SueM in MN]

our experience on Pirates with my husband's air Hawk power wheelchair was that he could take it through the line but I had to push him, he was not allowed to use the motor. they had the chair waiting for us at the unload point and we used the exit elevator to get back upstairs.

we have since decided that we will just get a return time on my DAS and he will park and walk the shorter distance in the LL. one day when the line was a 10 minute wait we asked if we could do this to avoid the longer line distance and they let us.
seems like everything it is all in which CM you encounter

If that is the power wheelchair, I’m thinking of, it’s a lightweight folding power wheelchair, about 40 pounds, so no heavier to push than an average Manual wheelchair. I’m not sure of the reason for not using the motor, maybe to make sure it’s ready for the CM to push when you board??


A portable power wheelchair like that is a much different situation than one like the one my daughter has, which is over 400 pounds.
So, while they might be able to accommodate the first wheelchair, they are not likely to be able to accommodate the second.

 

[tramps’lady]

If that is the power wheelchair, I’m thinking of, it’s a lightweight folding power wheelchair, about 40 pounds, so no heavier to push than an average Manual wheelchair. I’m not sure of the reason for not using the motor, maybe to make sure it’s ready for the CM to push when you board??
View attachment 625503

A portable power wheelchair like that is a much different situation than one like the one my daughter has, which is over 400 pounds.
So, while they might be able to accommodate the first wheelchair, they are not likely to be able to accommodate the second.
View attachment 625504

that's the one. no clue why they wouldn't let him drive it so we just worked around. I understand why there would be a difference possible the hallway or path they take to get to the exit is most likely.

can you easily "push" those bigger electric wheelchairs? probably easier for Disney to just say no motors of any kind rather then have to have the CM argue with guests as to why theirs is OK but someone else's isn't.

luckily the time we had to push him, I was able to but I can see situations where there may not be someone and to me telling the guests oh well you just can't ride is not good customer service but I don't know what the answer is.

 

[Evita_W]

They should redesign the attraction a bit to where when necessary they could.load at the unload area.

 

[SueM in MN]

that's the one. no clue why they wouldn't let him drive it so we just worked around. I understand why there would be a difference possible the hallway or path they take to get to the exit is most likely.

can you easily "push" those bigger electric wheelchairs? probably easier for Disney to just say no motors of any kind rather then have to have the CM argue with guests as to why theirs is OK but someone else's isn't.

luckily the time we had to push him, I was able to but I can see situations where there may not be someone and to me telling the guests oh well you just can't ride is not good customer service but I don't know what the answer is.

No. Not easy to push at all! Without anyone in it, the custom power wheelchairs weigh at least 300 pounds; most more.
Without power, it takes a lot to get it started moving, it’s very hard and imprecise to turn and once you’ve got some momentum going, it’s very hard to stop it.

I had to push DD’s wheelchair once for about 15 minutes of her dance class. That was on a nice smooth level floor. By the end of the 15 minutes, I was worn out.
I‘m positive her power wheelchair would not work in the small elevator.

 

[DisneyOma]

They should redesign the attraction a bit to where when necessary they could.load at the unload area.

Are you talking about PotC? That would require a rebuild of the entire exit/entrance mechanics, as there is a drop at the beginning, and then an inaccessible ramp after passengers get off at the end (there's no room for a person to stay in the boat) for the boat to get back to the beginning.

 

[Evita_W]

Are you talking about PotC? That would require a rebuild of the entire exit/entrance mechanics, as there is a drop at the beginning, and then an inaccessible ramp after passengers get off at the end (there's no room for a person to stay in the boat) for the boat to get back to the beginning.

Yes and I did say it would require a redesign, but it is technically possible, perhaps not feasible, but possible.

What I am saying they should do is have a system where people could go down the elevator, load into the boat at the exit, then go through the entire ride and unload at the exit where the wheelchair or scooter is still there from when they loaded. There is plenty of room on the dock to accommodate multiple devices, but this would require a larger elevator and a reworking of the mechanisms between unload and load.

But there would be no ramps to deal with, drops wouldn't matter anymore than on the ride. Although, I don't remember where, DH has seen a water attraction with a drop that had a wheelchair accessible boat. So, that could prove to be interesting, which is what I think you thought I was suggesting be done and it could be as well, but that would be far more complicated.

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes and I did say it would require a redesign, but it is technically possible, perhaps not feasible, but possible.

What I am saying they should do is have a system where people could go down the elevator, load into the boat at the exit, then go through the entire ride and unload at the exit where the wheelchair or scooter is still there from when they loaded. There is plenty of room on the dock to accommodate multiple devices, but this would require a larger elevator and a reworking of the mechanisms between unload and load.

But there would be no ramps to deal with, drops wouldn't matter anymore than on the ride. Although, I don't remember where, DH has seen a water attraction with a drop that had a wheelchair accessible boat. So, that could prove to be interesting, which is what I think you thought I was suggesting be done and it could be as well, but that would be far more complicated.

It would need a complete reconstruction to do that at WDW.
After guests get out of the boats at the unload area, the boats continue on thru an area that is just high enough for the boats to go thru to get back up to the loading area.
Maybe they could put in a larger elevator, but not easily since the one at the unload area is at an underground level compared to the ‘ground level’ of the park.
The exit dock would also need to be enlarged; it’s not that big.