**UPDATE** Has this happened to any other resale buyers? Fidelity made it right!

[TheDailyMoo]

I believe this is already the default with the board sponsor - most of our buys were through them. Their standard purchase contract seems to explicitly say they will take the risk and cover any lost points. In a case like this, it's a huge plus.

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The first time I worked with a different broker there was no penalty listed at all, and we had to add it in manually, but they wanted the seller to pay it - that deal fell through anyway because we ended up buying VGF direct. With some other smaller brokers I also saw the seller was required to pay the penalty, and when I asked them to change it they refused. I assume most practical lawyers would not let them do it, or they are too small to take the risk. Unless all buyers start asking for this, they would probably prefer to let you walk rather than take the risk themselves.

So it's $20pp to guarantee you get paid or the $25pp from Fidelity who basically is telling the seller to pay up to the wronged buyer and who knows how long it takes if ever. It's nice to have that guarantee but would you just want $20 pp and still pay the dues? You basically forcibly rented your points for $11-12 pp. This whole thing stinks if it happens to anyone looking for resale...and who amongst us doesn't own at least one resale contract. And no it doesn't happen that often from what I surmise but often enough where there's a level of danger in buying resale that most of us don't ever realize until alas...too late.

 

[DanCali]

I said not only do I want the penalty but those owners that used the points should also pay the dues, just like in any contract where points are used. This is a bad situation all around and I have very little recourse except waiting and if that doesn't work out then litigation. I just wanted to use Stormalong Bay for my kid!

Imagine not only not having the points you were guaranteed in your contract but having to pay dues for those points as well.

The dues may not be an issue here (I think). If they would have paid the 2024 dues, you would presumably not be getting the 2024 points anyway, right?

If the agreement was that you pay the dues for 2024 points, and get the 2024 points then you need to pay those dues either way. But if the 2024 points are missing, you should get paid the $25/pt compensation. But I don't think it's $25/pt plus the dues because then the seller is paying twice for those points (dues + penalty).

It's nice to have that guarantee but would you just want $20 pp and still pay the dues? You basically forcibly rented your points for $11-12 pp.

But when you rent points you do pay dues on those points... I have rented some points for $19-$21 but it's $11-$12 over the dues in terms of gain (not accounting for the upfront cost depreciation).

 

[TheDailyMoo]

But when you rent points you do pay dues on those points... I have rented some points for $19-$21 but it's $11-$12 over the dues in terms of gain (not accounting for the upfront cost depreciation).

Yes you're right it would amount to that much more or less. But in reality you would want those points. It's nice to have the backstop of penalty points but the real points are so much more valuable in so many respects.

 

[tom1944]

Until it happens to you. Just being realistic. Not too many people call for change if it never affects them. This is a resale nightmare scenario. Imagine not only not having the points you were guaranteed in your contract but having to pay dues for those points as well.

If it happened to me, I would want it to change. I am just stating the obvious- that things like this happen either as bad acts or errors.

They are not going to be perfect or establish a system that never has errors unless it becomes so consistent that it hurts their business.

 

[Arr2-D2]

If it happened to me, I would want it to change. I am just stating the obvious- that things like this happen either as bad acts or errors.

They are not going to be perfect or establish a system that never has errors unless it becomes so consistent that it hurts their business.

With the information that the person selling is "very old supposedly and barely knew how to use the internet" then I would hope for a quick response from the seller doing the right thing leading this to be an "error". But if the request from the broker to make it right is ignored or down right refused... then that points to some sort of shenanigans.

I hope it all works out for the best & soon!

 

[mathgeek]

OP, all I can say is wow. I was annoyed and upset when my recent VGC small resale contract did not have the points banked as they were supposed to have been before the sale. But at least they were there even if not in the correct UY. Thankfully DVC allowed a one time banking past the deadline since it was a just closed contract. I cannot imagine what you're going through.

I used a different broker than you, but again, where was the screenshot/pdf of the points from the seller prior to closing that should've verified the banking? I know I had to provide one with the 2 contracts I sold recently (with another different broker).

 

[mort1331]

Yes you're right it would amount to that much more or less. But in reality you would want those points. It's nice to have the backstop of penalty points but the real points are so much more valuable in so many respects.

Just a thought. If they will transfer you points, or make a reservation for you, that might be better, financially. Think about it, if you do get the $25 per point, you are paying not only dues, but if your in the USA then also taxes on that. Where if you just get points, you can work around that. Just a thought.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I used a different broker than you, but again, where was the screenshot/pdf of the points from the seller prior to closing that should've verified the banking? I know I had to provide one with the 2 contracts I sold recently (with another different broker).

I haven't gotten any answers yet but I'm starting to think that Fidelity and/or DVC Title may be the ones who screwed this one up. Honestly no one is giving any info.

Just a thought. If they will transfer you points, or make a reservation for you, that might be better, financially. Think about it, if you do get the $25 per point, you are paying not only dues, but if your in the USA then also taxes on that. Where if you just get points, you can work around that. Just a thought.

I know I've thought about this. The $25pp sounds good in theory but after paying taxes and what not it really is losing money compared to the value of having the points. I really want to find out why they can't transfer their points into my account if they are willing to book me a vacation with those exact same points. At least with a transfer I would be made whole and I can go along my merry way. What reservation would I even ask for that would sell for sure more than the $25pp anyway? Christmas week? I'm just so upset that I'm dealing with this right now when I signed a contract with exactly what I was supposed to get. I'm giving them one more day to respond in a way I find satisfactory before I start contacting the Florida Attorney General and filing a time share fraud complaint. After that unfortunately litigation is the next step. All for a process that runs smoothly 99.9% of the time for all of us.

 

[pianomanzano]

So sorry you’re dealing with OP. I recall a similar story with Fidelity as the broker where the person spoke directly with some senior person there to get things resolved. Too many instances of this from this particular broker have spooked me into never wanting to buy a contract from them no matter how great the price is.

While you’re at it, you should request a refund of the bogus admin fee they charge since clearly no type of administration is going on in the brokering of these contracts.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

So sorry you’re dealing with OP. I recall a similar story with Fidelity as the broker where the person spoke directly with some senior person there to get things resolved. Too many instances of this from this particular broker have spooked me into never wanting to buy a contract from them no matter how great the price is.

While you’re at it, you should request a refund of the bogus admin fee they charge since clearly no type of administration is going on in the brokering of these contracts.

After my first contract with Fidelity went off without a hitch I spoke very highly of them even though I knew some on here had negative views about them. Well...now I see. I'm really starting to lean towards the negligence being on Fidelity's end. Actually probably on all parties involved...Fidelity, DVC Title, and the sellers. As much as I want this resolved in my favor I'm also very curious as to what went wrong. Perhaps if I post the details I have some sleuth on here would be able to figure out what probably happened.

 

[DanCali]

After my first contract with Fidelity went off without a hitch I spoke very highly of them even though I knew some on here had negative views about them. Well...now I see. I'm really starting to lean towards the negligence being on Fidelity's end. Actually probably on all parties involved...Fidelity, DVC Title, and the sellers. As much as I want this resolved in my favor I'm also very curious as to what went wrong. Perhaps if I post the details I have some sleuth on here would be able to figure out what probably happened.

What went wrong is that there is probably a tradeoff between speed of closing the transaction and attention to detail. As long as most sellers do what they need to do (probably 99%+ of cases), buyers are more likely to notice and appreciate the speed at which the transaction closes. Speed also benefits other parties involved - sellers get paid faster, and so do the broker and title company who can make up for the relatively small amounts they get paid per transaction by closing many of them in a given month or year. It's when things go wrong, like an error in the deed or missing points that one starts to regret the speed at which things moved along and think about the "if only" scenarios.

We've closed 6 resale transactions and I had errors in 2 of the deeds that were going to be filed involving addresses. I reviewed both before they got filed (it's not really my job to do that, and some title companies don't even send buyers the deed) - one mistake I caught before it was filed and one I caught only after the fact. It was a pretty big battle to get that second deed corrected since the title company claimed it didn't legally matter and then they also demanded that I pay for the process involved (eventually they took care of it after the broker got involved). It's a manual process and mistakes happen. A little less speed and more diligence definitely wouldn't hurt, but the incentives are probably not there. And it'd be nice if the parties involved would own up to their mistakes...

 

[TheDailyMoo]

What went wrong is that there is probably a tradeoff between speed of closing the transaction and attention to detail. As long as most sellers do what they need to do (probably 99%+ of cases), buyers are more likely to notice and appreciate the speed at which the transaction closes. Speed also benefits other parties involved - sellers get paid faster, and so do the broker and title company who can make up for the relatively small amounts they get paid per transaction by closing many of them in a given month or year. It's when things go wrong, like an error in the deed or missing points that one starts to regret the speed at which things moved along and think about the "if only" scenarios.

We've closed 6 resale transactions and I had errors in 2 of the deeds that were going to be filed involving addresses. I reviewed both before they got filed (it's not really my job to do that, and some title companies don't even send buyers the deed) - one mistake I caught before it was filed and one I caught only after the fact. It was a pretty big battle to get that second deed corrected since the title company claimed it didn't legally matter and then they also demanded that I pay for the process involved (eventually they took care of it after the broker got involved). It's a manual process and mistakes happen. A little less speed and more diligence definitely wouldn't hurt, but the incentives are probably not there. And it'd be nice if the parties involved would own up to their mistakes...

I think part of my own problem here is I think these companies are more "big corporate" than the mom and pop type businesses they are probably closer to. I'm very surprised that mistakes like that would happen so regularly. I think because the product they are selling is Disney DVC and other high profile vacation companies it's easy to get fooled into thinking they hold the same high standards and the attention to detail of said companies. When in reality they are just a third party seller brokering a deal between two other parties. I am leaning more towards the idea that it was Fidelity that messed up in checking and DVC Title decided to just rubber stamp what they were given without actually double checking. I'm not sure how much blame to put on the sellers. I still think a lot of the point confusion is on them and I'm trying very hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that they really are old and confused. But they also owned that contract since 2002. You're telling me after 20+ years all of a sudden they forgot how points work?

 

[Sandisw]

I think part of my own problem here is I think these companies are more "big corporate" than the mom and pop type businesses they are probably closer to. I'm very surprised that mistakes like that would happen so regularly. I think because the product they are selling is Disney DVC and other high profile vacation companies it's easy to get fooled into thinking they hold the same high standards and the attention to detail of said companies. When in reality they are just a third party seller brokering a deal between two other parties. I am leaning more towards the idea that it was Fidelity that messed up in checking and DVC Title decided to just rubber stamp what they were given without actually double checking. I'm not sure how much blame to put on the sellers. I still think a lot of the point confusion is on them and I'm trying very hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that they really are old and confused. But they also owned that contract since 2002. You're telling me after 20+ years all of a sudden they forgot how points work?

Unless this is the first time they used the points to trade out for a cruise? Maybe that confused them?

Regardless, they should have sent the points activity statements so someone should have notice

 

[jason423]

I think part of my own problem here is I think these companies are more "big corporate" than the mom and pop type businesses they are probably closer to. I'm very surprised that mistakes like that would happen so regularly. I think because the product they are selling is Disney DVC and other high profile vacation companies it's easy to get fooled into thinking they hold the same high standards and the attention to detail of said companies. When in reality they are just a third party seller brokering a deal between two other parties. I am leaning more towards the idea that it was Fidelity that messed up in checking and DVC Title decided to just rubber stamp what they were given without actually double checking. I'm not sure how much blame to put on the sellers. I still think a lot of the point confusion is on them and I'm trying very hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that they really are old and confused. But they also owned that contract since 2002. You're telling me after 20+ years all of a sudden they forgot how points work?

Any idea what the dashboard looks like if you book a cruise? Are the points still visible or are they off from there? Is there any possibility they booked this cruise earlier and simply thought they could cancel and the points would be transferred back? This feels like something the title company should have caught unless the sellers really did this at the last second.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

Any idea what the dashboard looks like if you book a cruise? Are the points still visible or are they off from there? Is there any possibility they booked this cruise earlier and simply thought they could cancel and the points would be transferred back? This feels like something the title company should have caught unless the sellers really did this at the last second.

Yeah so DVC is very tight lipped about anything pertaining to what was booked and when. I've escalated it and spoken to some manager type people but I get basically the same answers. I keep saying I understand they can't tell me about another member's reservations but I also say that I just want to know WHEN it was booked or when the points were used. If it was after the closing date then that is legally my contract even if the contract wasn't transferred. That got me nowhere. I did ask what you said and no, once the points are switched to a reservation then they disappear from the dashboard and even if cancelled they are not put back in. Which leads me to think Fidelity screwed up or the sellers made the reservation after Fidelity/DVC Title confirmed the points.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post but the original listing had 2023 points available. It wasn't until I got the contract that I saw only the 2024 and 2025 points listed. I asked my listing agent what was up and he basically said it was an error and he blamed the sellers basically. That's when he said they were old and bad with the internet and they confused some of their points from another contract or something to that effect. I went ahead with the purchase because even for a partially stripped contract the price was extremely cheap.

I was able to speak to someone at DVC that looked back at the contract they were given to switch over to my contract and there were something like 478 reservation points in 2024 which of course they can't transfer to me being resale. Did Disney cancel the cruise on them? Did they borrow another 150 points before that happened? And when? Those reservation points aren't on the dashboard so what exactly did Fidelity see? They must've seen the 123 in 2024 and 150 in 2025 otherwise they are extremely negligent. Now I have 123 in 2025 and 150 in 2026. Is that what the broker saw and made that egregious of a mistake moving the years up? Or did the sellers borrow another 150 points. is 123 always a number they end up with. Is this strange or what.

 

[PolyRob]

Now I have 123 in 2025 and 150 in 2026. Is that what the broker saw and made that egregious of a mistake moving the years up? Or did the sellers borrow another 150 points. is 123 always a number they end up with. Is this strange or what.

I want to start off saying I have been following this thread and I feel so bad for you!

I agree (and thought from the beginning) that Fidelity just mixed up the UYs. It would be very hard to replicate the exact number of points per UY.

I inquired about some VGF contracts with Fidelity in 2019 because the price listed on the website was great! When I called I was told the number of points listed AND price per point were all incorrect due to "website issues." I hung and and never called back.

I hope you get fair compensation! I know Fidelity offered to book you travel and while it may not be BCV if you can get the same accommodations you already secured for 2024 and then bank your points it may be the best worst case scenario.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I agree (and thought from the beginning) that Fidelity just mixed up the UYs. It would be very hard to replicate the exact number of points per UY.

Thank you I appreciate it. We all buy resale (most of us anyway) and apparently this is something that can happen and it is not a good feeling. As for it being Fidelity mixing up the UYs the only thing that would lead me not to believe that is that in one of their subsequent emails they said they would bill the sellers for the $25 pp that they would pay out to me directly. If it was fully on them how could they get away with forcing the sellers to pay the 25pp penalty? Very little is making sense in all this. One other clue that may lead to seller error is when I was talking to the helpful Disney rep she told me there were 478 reservation points in 2024 that were never transferred over but on the piece of paper I was writing on I wrote down the number 327. She mentioned that number and when I asked her again where she got that number she didn't know or wasn't able to tell me but there's basically the 150 point difference right there. I need to see if I can get a rep to call me back again so I can try to figure out the numbers as they were in the previous contract's state. Also I will say that this is a mystery I don't mind not solving so long as I get made whole!

Oh and as for the reservations I've booked those rooms are long gone by now so that wouldn't work but that was a good idea thank you!

 

[Sandisw]

Thank you I appreciate it. We all buy resale (most of us anyway) and apparently this is something that can happen and it is not a good feeling. As for it being Fidelity mixing up the UYs the only thing that would lead me not to believe that is that in one of their subsequent emails they said they would bill the sellers for the $25 pp that they would pay out to me directly. If it was fully on them how could they get away with forcing the sellers to pay the 25pp penalty? Very little is making sense in all this. One other clue that may lead to seller error is when I was talking to the helpful Disney rep she told me there were 478 reservation points in 2024 that were never transferred over but on the piece of paper I was writing on I wrote down the number 327. She mentioned that number and when I asked her again where she got that number she didn't know or wasn't able to tell me but there's basically the 150 point difference right there. I need to see if I can get a rep to call me back again so I can try to figure out the numbers as they were in the previous contract's state. Also I will say that this is a mystery I don't mind not solving so long as I get made whole!

Oh and as for the reservations I've booked those rooms are long gone by now so that wouldn't work but that was a good idea thank you!

Unfortunately, they can not give you information about what happened when in terms of sellers activity

But What I think could have happened is that the sellers may not have realized that the points from the cruise , once canceled wouldn’t be eligible to be sold with the contract…and neither did the broker and why they were listed the way it was?

They were counting them as being available? And, even if the broker told you they’d bill the seller but pay you first, it doesn’t mean they plan to if it was their fault.

They just are not going to admit whose fault it is because once you get what you are entitled to via the contract, the matter is technically settled.

Hopefully you can definitely get the payment soon!

 

[jason423]

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post but the original listing had 2023 points available. It wasn't until I got the contract that I saw only the 2024 and 2025 points listed. I asked my listing agent what was up and he basically said it was an error and he blamed the sellers basically. That's when he said they were old and bad with the internet and they confused some of their points from another contract or something to that effect. I went ahead with the purchase because even for a partially stripped contract the price was extremely cheap.

I was able to speak to someone at DVC that looked back at the contract they were given to switch over to my contract and there were something like 478 reservation points in 2024 which of course they can't transfer to me being resale. Did Disney cancel the cruise on them? Did they borrow another 150 points before that happened? And when? Those reservation points aren't on the dashboard so what exactly did Fidelity see? They must've seen the 123 in 2024 and 150 in 2025 otherwise they are extremely negligent. Now I have 123 in 2025 and 150 in 2026. Is that what the broker saw and made that egregious of a mistake moving the years up? Or did the sellers borrow another 150 points. is 123 always a number they end up with. Is this strange or what.

This sounds like a screw up by Fidelity and the title company unless the seller sent them a screenshot from another contract. They way those points add up it sounds like they had a cruise booked for sometime after their use year in 2024 began. They probably borrowed 27 points from 2025, used the full allotment of 2024 points and borrowed their full allotment from 2023 which is where the 327 came from. I would not be surprised if the other 151 were transferred in from another contract they owned which might explain where the additional points to get to 478.

The seller may have been unaware that the points could not be transferred back, which might be the case since the rules are so confusing with that stuff, which might also explain why the original listing had 2023 points as well. Either Fidelity looked at something incorrectly and maybe just assumed that the 123 listed for 2025 was really 2024 because it wouldnt make sense to have points taken from 2025 on what they were told was a loaded contract or the seller sent them something from a wrong contract. My guess is this was a fidelity screw up more than anything and a poor job done by the title company