"Virginia moving to eliminate all accelerated math courses before 11th grade as part of equity-focused plan"

[mrodgers]

I’m in my 40s and in we all took the same math classes until 11th and 12th.

Also 40's (close to moving into the next one, LOL) 7-12th we had options on the direction to go with your classes with regard to math and science. I had Algebra 1 in 7th grade and up through calculous in 12th while others were only in Algebra 1 in 11th.

 

[punkin]

One comment:

Don't make the mistake of seeing an article citation of Fox News (or CNN, or MSNBC) and automatically assuming it is not legit. ALL news media applies

The year my twins were in 6th grade, the schools decided that students weren’t switching for math (previously 3 levels), my friend is a 6th grade teacher and said it didn’t work (his daughter, my daughter’s best friend, was also in 6th grade). Fortunately he was able to tutor my kids so they could test into algebra for 7th grade (my other kids never needed tutoring because they learned everything they needed in 6th grade math). He said it’s not possible to teach different levels in the same class, even breaking them into groups.

It's possible, but it will not happen in a 35+ student classroom in a public school. Differentiated teaching was quite effective in DD's progressive private school with less than 10 students in the class.

 

[monsterkitty]

Virginia Department Of Education's webpage states:

The Virginia Mathematics Pathways Initiative (VMPI) will:​

• Improve equity in mathematics learning opportunities
• Empower students to be active participants in a quantitative world
• Encourage students to see themselves as knowers and doers of mathematics
• Identify K-12 mathematics pathways that support future success
• Collaborate with multiple stakeholder to advance mathematics education

The VMPI will develop an initial vision for mathematics education in K-12 that will require feedback from many different stakeholders across the Commonwealth. This feedback will be critical when the Mathematics Standards of Learning revisions in 2023 reflect the goals and recommendations of this Initiative. Possible piloting of high school level mathematics courses prior to full implementation is now being considered. This Initiative will establish an innovative direction for mathematics education in Virginia that will benefit all students.​

I've got to believe they are going to take into account feedback and adjust plans.

More than another other subject, children advance in mathematics at different paces.

The sentence I highlighted will still allow for students who are gifted in math to still be allowed to be given lessons, concepts, problems, etc that will enable them to move forward at the pace they need.

 

[Moliphino]

My local high school (which has an outstanding math program) offers Calculus II through Georgia Tech.

Georgia Tech is challenging, few easy courses there.

The Ivy League school I attended is a lot easier than Georgia Tech.

The hardest thing about an Ivy League school is getting in. Once you are in, you are almost guaranteed to graduate. (I did have a handful of classmates who couldn’t manage their newly found independence and got into academic trouble, but they did graduate in 5 years.)

I can vouch for that (GT grad). Calc II was my introduction to the curve freshman year, I think the average grade on our first test was about a 40.

 

[monsterkitty]

It's possible, but it will not happen in a 35+ student classroom in a public school. Differentiated teaching was quite effective in DD's progressive private school with less than 10 students in the class.

It works in public schools as well with classes of 30+ students. It's hard but it works.

 

[BayouQueen]

I mean...there's a lot of word salad in the plan. But the bottom line is that surely the goal is not to provide for the math high-achievers; it's to bring up the under-achievers. For that, whatever they've been doing in the past isn't working.
If I have a math scholar, I'd probably look for enrichment elsewhere. Just me...

 

[AndreaA]

It works in public schools as well with classes of 30+ students. It's hard but it works.

No, it really, really doesn’t work at all. If you’re seeing it work, that’s the exception, not the rule.

 

[monsterkitty]

No, it really, really doesn’t work at all. If you’re seeing it work, that’s the exception, not the rule.

Differentiated instruction is huge in my area. All of the districts in the county I live in use differentiated instruction.

It works if you're trained and supported in DI. If it's not working in your area then it's not being trained or supported like it should be.

 

[DisneyOma]

And those students (along with their parents) are perfectly capable of seeking out further enrichment. I mean if they are that gifted anyway.
I think maybe we should wait to see what else is offered before saying these kids will be bored. Take a look at an actual course handbook before we jump to conclusions.
I know in our district all students take X<Y<Z but if you actually look at the handbook there are "levels" of X>Y>Z. I assume it will be something like that here in VA.
These are not advanced levels, it's more about adjusting the pace and workload.

What in the world are you talking about with X<Y<Z and X>Y>Z? Mathematically, that doesn't even exist, LOL! Maybe that's part of the problem?

So....I see some saying all the different learning levels and styles will be accommodated by a single teacher in one classroom instead and f separate classrooms.....then how is that different than just having separate classrooms? It’s not. This is “equality theatre” as more advanced students will still be favored.

I see it as the more advanced students will be tossed some material and ignored, actually.

No it isn't but it isn't the schools job to provide equity in learning outside of their walls.
Are parents now not supposed to seek out what their children need because others can't?
Is that what you are saying here?

Some can't afford to hire a tutor, supplement a public education. Why should there have to be academic learning done outside of the school?

And the higher math offerings they list on those slides for 11th and 12th graders are fascinating. Much higher level stuff and much more tailored to a student's interests than anything that was available when I was in school or for my 19 & 23yos.

I am curious how the teachers feel about this change, though, since it appears to lean heavily on differentiated education in the foundational courses. That's a lot more work for teachers than specialized classes where everyone is on the same lesson at the same time. We implemented it (successfully, in my view) at DD's middle school but our teachers have been very clear in their feedback that it is a model that works because of our small class sizes. Our class-size cap is 20 and our math teacher felt that a full class is pushing the limits of practicality for differentiated teaching, but since this is a public school reform, I'd imagine teachers will be asked to implement it in classes of 30 or more.



I think it was only a matter of time until we started seeing some pushback against the pressure-cooker situation in so many high schools. Why would anyone think it is a good thing to expect 15yo kids to be able to handle college level courses for the sake of competing in the college admissions race and keeping up with their peers?

"College level" at age 15 usually means a community college course around here. Honors is actually more rigorous, and AP even more so. The classes listed on that website - the kids are not going to get the foundation to a rigorous level in them IMO.

Did they take a math class in 12th grade? The highest math a student could take was Calculus at my school. Just curious. Thanks

AP Stats, AB/BC Calculus, and AP Physics Algebra based.

China can try to teach Calculus to 11/12 year olds all they want. However, the cognitive levels of this age will prevent 99% of those students from understanding anything put in front of them.

Actually, if you start teaching kids academics at a very early age their brains wire to it and they thrive. They do it a lot in China, and here in the Chinese-American community. So I disagree with your 99% fail rate.

The sentence I highlighted will still allow for students who are gifted in math to still be allowed to be given lessons, concepts, problems, etc that will enable them to move forward at the pace they need.

So, it's still teaching at levels. Just all in one classroom. Reminds me of the open classroom concept, which was a huge fail. We've still got one school built for it in our district, and every year we build another divider or two to enclose the rooms a bit.

 

[KingAugie]

What in the world are you talking about with X<Y<Z and X>Y>Z? Mathematically, that doesn't even exist, LOL! Maybe that's part of the problem?


Some can't afford to hire a tutor, supplement a public education. Why should there have to be academic learning done outside of the school?

Oh, sorry I said there were levels, I used those letters to denote that and since I had my finger on the shift button < was in place of the comma.
I could have said A, B or C or low, med, high etc. Without checking the actual course handbook I was unsure of what the classes are actually named. I was not referring to an actual math equation.

As to the bolded- if you as a parent don't think any academic learning should be done outside of the classroom then THAT is the part of the problem, a big one.

 

[amylevan]

No it isn't but it isn't the schools job to provide equity in learning outside of their walls.
Are parents now not supposed to seek out what their children need because others can't?
Is that what you are saying here?

No, I’m pointing out that the language in why they are recommending this move is to provide equity. But if they’re shifting advancement/enrichment from the schools to outside opportunities, the equity isn't going anywhere, it’s actually getting worse.

 

[KingAugie]

No, I’m pointing out that the language in why they are recommending this move is to provide equity. But if they’re shifting advancement/enrichment from the schools to outside opportunities, the equity isn't going anywhere, it’s actually getting worse.

If the school offers the same to all students that is in fact "equity".
All students take the same classes in K-12, and by 11th they all have the opportunities to pick and choose classes based on their academic level achieved in those previous classes.

I don't necessarily agree with that approach as far as not allowing students to take higher math courses in lower grades. I also don't see it as taking away from advanced students. They will still be able to take advanced courses in their last 2 years of HS. Many schools across the country work that way already. I guess for some people this isn't as controversial as it is to others.

My comment about seeking enrichment elsewhere stands no matter what your school's curriculum is.
If you find your child needs more than the school is offering them, then you find other ways to give it to them.

 

[monsterkitty]

Actually, if you start teaching kids academics at a very early age their brains wire to it and they thrive. They do it a lot in China, and here in the Chinese-American community. So I disagree with your 99% fail rate.



So, it's still teaching at levels. Just all in one classroom. Reminds me of the open classroom concept, which was a huge fail. We've still got one school built for it in our district, and every year we build another divider or two to enclose the rooms a bit.

I agree if you start teaching academics at a very early age the brain opens up more and thrives. Same as if you have students start a musical instrument at a young age that opens up the brain and benefits those students later. It drives me crazy when districts cut instrumental music from elementary schools so that students have more time for literacy and math when studies literally show that those in music achieve at a higher level.

However, the school systems don't always have students who enter school prepared to learn, especially in economically disadvantaged areas. When my sister was an elementary principal she would regularly get students in first grade who didn't go to kindergarten. Now our state has all day kindergarten, but it's still not mandatory. We also get students from other countries at the middle school level who never had a consistent education.

Brains, just like bodies, mature at different rates. Some students don't have the cognitive ability to grasp a concept. An example of this is rhythms. Many students have difficulty with rhythms and counting as they play, but somewhere between 7th and 8th grade the light goes on and they get it. Unfortunately, especially with math, states have required harder concepts at earlier ages when a child isn't ready. The frustration grows and so does the lack of confidence and dislike for math.

Obviously this is not true for all areas and students.

Your second point, not even close to open concept. We don't do traditional grade levels in my district. Students are placed in each class by ability level. If you have a typical 6th grade student who reads and writes at an 8th grade level, they are placed in that level. Same student only performs at a 5th grade math level, they are placed at that level. You're still in middle school, but in different leveled classes than your traditional grade level.

If you're in Level 7 math, the majority of students in your class are at the same level as you. However, if you move at a faster pace you're allowed to do that as long as you show competency. If you pass Level 7 you change classes and go to a Level 8 class. We still have to do individual plans for each student that allows for them to move at a pace that works for them.

 

[JimMIA]

LOL. If they tried something like this in Florida, our best students would swarm to our free charter schools!

Fortunately, at least in our county, our public high schools are very good and there are many options available to good students.

Our DD graduated from a public magnet-only high school where every course was either Honors or AP. Admission required meeting stringent academic criteria, and then actual acceptance was done by lottery to ensure fairness. She was in the biomedical research magnet, and had the opportunity to participate in a hands-on 200+ hour biomedical research internship at a local university lab, under the direct mentorship of an MD/PhD in an actual National Institute of Health research project.

 

[tex1989]

Have not had kids in school for a while (mine are 31 and 35) but when I went to school (graduated HS in 1977) you could jump into advanced mathematics Freshman year if you were ready. Had a wide array of choices and there was definitely different paths for minimum requirements and other more rigorous paths. At our ten year reunion we had three PhD's all in heavy math disciplines. I have always been a believer in the idea that all kids are different and need the choices. I am of the same thoughts as Mike Rowe. While college may be every parents asperation for their children the reality is one can lead a good life as plumbers and electricians, etc if the academic path is not their strong suit. We need to identify and nurture that with more math classes for some and more Trade classes for others. I think that the more opportunities presented earlier in the educational process would better prepare students for life. Just my two cents.

 

[DLgal]

It's called Integrated Math and it's how many forward thinking districts have been doing it for years.

It's a good system. I like it. There are opportunities to accelerate a few times based on student grades and desires to learn more complex math before college, but it's really just a speed thing (kids can take 2 years of math crammed into one to get done faster). Our high school offers numerous "math electives" for 11th and 12th graders who have completed up through Math 3.

 

[AndreaA]

Differentiated instruction is huge in my area. All of the districts in the county I live in use differentiated instruction.

It works if you're trained and supported in DI. If it's not working in your area then it's not being trained or supported like it should be.

Our district is rated as one of the best in the state. We currently spend 20k per year per student. It’s crazy. However, moving into “standards based/proficiency based grading” and differentiated instruction in the classrooms has NOT been some huge win. I advise everyone to really examine what is happening in their individual schools. The schools will spin it as a great thing, no matter what. The students, meanwhile, are the ones who suffer. I have been in the schools teaching and witnessed kids who are ahead of the curve just left to their own devices - reading, playing computer games, goofing off and the same goes for those who aren’t quite “getting it”. They don’t slow down the class for them, and no one is hovering around checking to make sure that each child understands the concepts before moving on. So do the schools say it’s working? Heck yeah, they’re all enthusiastic about it. Meanwhile parents and students realize it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. It would ABSOLUTELY be more beneficial to simply track the students into groups depending on ability - much the way they did when I was a student. It would be 100x easier for the teachers as well. The ONLY reason they have moved to differentiated instruction is OPTICS. It looks better to have everyone in the same class, supposedly learning the same stuff at the same time. The fact that it doesn’t work as well is apparently secondary to the appearance of equality or some equity or some other stupid catchphrase. And I write this as someone who was in the top groups for ELA and NOT for math - yet somehow I didn’t wind up feeling badly about myself and went on to a top-tier college...

 

[DisLiss]

I’m in my 40s and in we all took the same math classes until 11th and 12th.

I'm just barely still in my 40s and my school district had different math classes much earlier than that.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

This is what we've done on our district for at least the past 15 years. Every child has an individual plan for every class. Not kidding. However, it works. It's incredibly hard on us teachers, but it works.

How a class is set up: Students are placed in all classes by levels, not grade levels. Within in that class students move through the level at a pace that allows for their own ability to grasp the concepts. If you're in a math class you will be in that class with other students who are the same academic level as you in that math class. However, in that math class students will still move at different speeds. Therefore the teacher may have 3 or 4 different lessons going on at the same time. For those students who grasp the concept faster than others, they are given deeper understanding problems.

It's like this for every subject. Even band and orchestra. I had to create different plans for each one of my students and I had 250-300/year. It wasn't so bad until we got a new principal 6 years ago. Until then we would group students with similar needs and abilities so we could copy and paste each plan. He no longer allowed us to do that and our spread sheets with plans were deleted.

We did not have a huge turnover rate. Those who came into the system knew what they were getting into and we would only lose teachers who were retiring or moving out of the area. This year, however, there are at least 5 teachers quitting but it has nothing to do with our individual education plans.



China can try to teach Calculus to 11/12 year olds all they want. However, the cognitive levels of this age will prevent 99% of those students from understanding anything put in front of them.

If my school moves to individual lesson plans for each student, I’m out. I can make just as much money being a receptionist and not have the avalanche of work that takes over my life now without individual lesson plans. Grading work in English classes is a Herculean task as it is already - all that writing!

 

[mefordis]

Have not had kids in school for a while (mine are 31 and 35) but when I went to school (graduated HS in 1977) you could jump into advanced mathematics Freshman year if you were ready. Had a wide array of choices and there was definitely different paths for minimum requirements and other more rigorous paths. At our ten year reunion we had three PhD's all in heavy math disciplines. I have always been a believer in the idea that all kids are different and need the choices. I am of the same thoughts as Mike Rowe. While college may be every parents asperation for their children the reality is one can lead a good life as plumbers and electricians, etc if the academic path is not their strong suit. We need to identify and nurture that with more math classes for some and more Trade classes for others. I think that the more opportunities presented earlier in the educational process would better prepare students for life. Just my two cents.

It's amusing that when people think of skipping college, they automatically think plumber or electrician. How about starting a business? With the 200k + we'll be shelling out for a 4 year degree, that would open the doors to many business opportunities.

My 12 yr old is an A student, good in math and science, and everything else. Great. She also states vehemently that she doesn't want to go to college. Sure she may change her mind but if she doesn't I'm not going to worry about it.

I think later in life people end up realizing their anxiety over their kid being in the most advanced classes was a huge waste of time and energy. I have personally seen a lot of successful people with mediocre grades in HS and even college (lack of college degree too).