We now have a $12000 family annual deductible

[mom2rtk]

How much more credit should I give someone with that example??? Seriously--you would spend $4000+ MORE just so you don't get a bill in the mail?? No, people as a whole do not think these through fully....

What I am seeing is companies that have moved to HSA only plans or have high participation rates in HSA plans have had significant premium decreases 10-20% over the last few years...so the plans ARE working and after a year or two, people LOVE the HSA plans.

I'm not saying that's a smart decision. I'm just saying you do yourself a huge disservice (especially if you are trying to sell something to someone) to come to a discussion with others assuming they have the same poor analytical skills.

 

[Happy Snowman]

LOL, I could win a point too if I could just make up numbers.

I don't doubt that is possible in some instances. I'm really not interested in what some random person in Minnesota can get their insurance for. I only have what is available to us.

Actually, these numbers are pretty typical and average numbers nationally and not from a plan in MN

Post your plan details and I bet you see something very similar....

 

[mom2rtk]

Actually, these numbers are pretty typical and average numbers nationally and not from a plan in MN

Post your plan details and I bet you see something very similar....

Just picking a random state to indicate it has no bearing on what our choices are.

I'm actually pretty good at analyzing the details myself and don't need your help. You taking a second look will not change the options available to us.

 

[Happy Snowman]

I'm not saying that's a smart decision. I'm just saying you do yourself a huge disservice (especially if you are trying to sell something to someone) to come to a discussion with others assuming they have the same poor analytical skills.

I don't sell anything to anyone. My job is to explain their benefits and point out the differences in the plans. Yes, I often go home with a headache because people are so stuck in their ways that they just don't listen to reason and even seeing the numbers in black and white still don't want "big bills". Even more frustrating when the HR people have the same problems seeing the big picture. They are so focused on paying that $20 co-pay....and fully supported by posts on this tread---again, people like to complain but don't look at the full picture---like being able to deduct your premiums on your taxes so your net costs are no where near what you are portraying....or realizing that just because your out of pocket max is whatever, doesn't mean you will spend that much money....

 

[sam_gordon]

Did you factor in the tax savings of the HSA? Yes, the middle ground people need to do a bit more math but depending on how close the plans are, the HSA could end up being better in the long run with the extended tax savings of the growth on any money in the account, etc. Not all employers structure their plans well to make the HSA plans advantageous but most do.

Yes. The point is *I* did the math. I looked at a typical year and looked what I would have spent with an HSA vs. what I did spend with the PPO. Even including the tax savings, the HSA would have cost me FAR more than the PPO.

The bottom line is there is no "magic plan" that fits everyone. Yes, there are people who don't crunch the numbers. But you need to realize there are people who DO their research. Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[sam_gordon]

I don't sell anything to anyone. My job is to explain their benefits and point out the differences in the plans. Yes, I often go home with a headache because people are so stuck in their ways that they just don't listen to reason and even seeing the numbers in black and white still don't want "big bills". Even more frustrating when the HR people have the same problems seeing the big picture. They are so focused on paying that $20 co-pay....and fully supported by posts on this tread---again, people like to complain but don't look at the full picture---like being able to deduct your premiums on your taxes so your net costs are no where near what you are portraying....or realizing that just because your out of pocket max is whatever, doesn't mean you will spend that much money....

Our premiums are taken out pre-tax, so we can't deduct them. What you see in your experience is not the case everywhere.

 

[kamik86]

I don't sell anything to anyone. My job is to explain their benefits and point out the differences in the plans. Yes, I often go home with a headache because people are so stuck in their ways that they just don't listen to reason and even seeing the numbers in black and white still don't want "big bills". Even more frustrating when the HR people have the same problems seeing the big picture. They are so focused on paying that $20 co-pay....and fully supported by posts on this tread---again, people like to complain but don't look at the full picture---like being able to deduct your premiums on your taxes so your net costs are no where near what you are portraying....or realizing that just because your out of pocket max is whatever, doesn't mean you will spend that much money....

I am one that sees both points.

I can understand why some people like the security of knowing that if they go to a doctor for an office visit it will cost them $20. They don't have to wonder what the cost will be right now.

However I have with work and our high deductible plans see many people complaining that because "Its like not even having insurance until you pay X"

What they forget about is that even when your paying everything until the deductible your still getting the insurance companies rates, not the rate for someone with no insurance.

For me my high deductible plan is definitely the way to go. I just had to pull DH off my work plan but that wasn't because the HD plan isn't good for him it is that the company charges his premiums and a huge spousal surcharge because he can get insurance at his job to the point that the fees are way too high for the convenience of having both of us on one plan. He will get his own plan now, but it will also be HD.

I haven't paid anything besides my premiums since we started at the HD plan because the company puts $1200 a year in my HSA just for picking this plan (there is a non-seeded one but the premiums aren't 1200 less a year so that just seems silly to do) Being young and healthy I haven't had to use anything beyond that 1200 a year. I also like how I can use that 1200 for dental and vision things (so it also covers our eye glasses after what the vision insurance pays, my wisdom teeth removal two years ago, etc.)

 

[Happy Snowman]

Yes. The point is *I* did the math. I looked at a typical year and looked what I would have spent with an HSA vs. what I did spend with the PPO. Even including the tax savings, the HSA would have cost me FAR more than the PPO.

The bottom line is there is no "magic plan" that fits everyone. Yes, there are people who don't crunch the numbers. But you need to realize there are people who DO their research. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Because MOST people do not to the math and that is the point. Yes, it's great when people do, but MOST do not.

Our premiums are taken out pre-tax, so we can't deduct them. What you see in your experience is not the case everywhere.

Well, technically you are deducting your premiums if they are taken out pre-tax but the OP is a small business owner and did not mention that in her posts about how much her insurance costs....and given that the deduction is substantial, her net costs are far below what she is saying.

 

[mom2rtk]

I don't sell anything to anyone. My job is to explain their benefits and point out the differences in the plans. Yes, I often go home with a headache because people are so stuck in their ways that they just don't listen to reason and even seeing the numbers in black and white still don't want "big bills". Even more frustrating when the HR people have the same problems seeing the big picture. They are so focused on paying that $20 co-pay....and fully supported by posts on this tread---again, people like to complain but don't look at the full picture---like being able to deduct your premiums on your taxes so your net costs are no where near what you are portraying....or realizing that just because your out of pocket max is whatever, doesn't mean you will spend that much money....

All you can do is explain the benefits and let them make their choices. They are adults and will live with the consequences. But you do yourself a real disservice to come at discussions like this with the anticipation that people think alike and don't think things through as well as you do. I would imagine that puts a lot of your customers off. Think that if you must. But you would be well served to hide it better.

 

[Tiggeroo]

I think a good deal of the problem here is disposable income. Most middle class and lower middle class folks do not have much of this. If you go into a higher deductible plan they will avoid seeing the dr. until it becomes an emergency. Then they will go to the er. I am helping my 24yo sons shop plans. One has a slightly lower income than the other. He is being offered a very good price for a low deductible plan. The one who makes a few thousand more will have to pay for that privilege. If he doesn't make much, is in school full time and often does not have much savings a plan where he has to spend 4000 before anything is covered and then pay 40 percent of everything until he spends another 3,000 is a problem for him. He is very healthy but also very active. If he gets hurt in a snowboarding accident he won't be able to see a dr. without coming up with the first 4000. Then he will be paying 40 percent of all meds, and physical therapy. I can imagine him not going even if it's bad. Or I can see him saying he can't pay for the mri he needs. Or I can more likely see dh and I emptying our savings to help him with his medical bills so he can get to a dr. and pt. And he is more fortunate than most people in his income bracket. He lives at home, has low bills and parents who would help him if he was in trouble and no family to support.
I support a version of the ACA. I just think if something more sensible couldn't be passed we are better off without anything than this. The people it is supposed to help the most it does not. DH and I are self employed and paying 1300 per month on cobra. We are able to right off premiums so in reality they do not cost as much as it appears. Even if I only save 30 percent on taxes it is a savings.

 

[Happy Snowman]

All you can do is explain the benefits and let them make their choices. They are adults and will live with the consequences. But you do yourself a real disservice to come at discussions like this with the anticipation that people think alike and don't think things through as well as you do. I would imagine that puts a lot of your customers off. Think that if you must. But you would be well served to hide it better.

Really??? Thanks for telling me how to do my job.... I don't have "customers" but thanks anyway. Again, after talking to 1000's of people each year, I can certainly come HERE and say with confidence that most people do NOT think through their plans beyond either the premiums or the out of pocket costs and RARELY do people look at the whole picture. Now, if I go into an engineering firm, I don't really have to say anything because they have 47 spreadsheets made up with all the possible outcomes, other companies, not so much. I had one woman that refused to even consider an HSA plan because she had to open a bank account. I'm sure she had her reasons.....even your answers to my posts clearly show that people do not think it through as much as they think they do.

 

[Happy Snowman]

I think a good deal of the problem here is disposable income. Most middle class and lower middle class folks do not have much of this. If you go into a higher deductible plan they will avoid seeing the dr. until it becomes an emergency. Then they will go to the er. I am helping my 24yo sons shop plans. One has a slightly lower income than the other. He is being offered a very good price for a low deductible plan. The one who makes a few thousand more will have to pay for that privilege. If he doesn't make much, is in school full time and often does not have much savings a plan where he has to spend 4000 before anything is covered and then pay 40 percent of everything until he spends another 3,000 is a problem for him. He is very healthy but also very active. If he gets hurt in a snowboarding accident he won't be able to see a dr. without coming up with the first 4000. Then he will be paying 40 percent of all meds, and physical therapy. I can imagine him not going even if it's bad. Or I can see him saying he can't pay for the mri he needs. Or I can more likely see dh and I emptying our savings to help him with his medical bills so he can get to a dr. and pt. And he is more fortunate than most people in his income bracket. He lives at home, has low bills and parents who would help him if he was in trouble and no family to support.
I support a version of the ACA. I just think if something more sensible couldn't be passed we are better off without anything than this. The people it is supposed to help the most it does not. DH and I are self employed and paying 1300 per month on cobra. We are able to right off premiums so in reality they do not cost as much as it appears. Even if I only save 30 percent on taxes it is a savings.

Why not keep them on your plan? Is that less expensive overall vs them each having their own plans with their own out of pocket costs, etc.?

Again, depends on the structure of the plan, but if they put the premium difference into an HSA (if the plan is qualified) that is how they pay for their out of pocket costs.

 

[DaisyD]

My 26 y/I son was on our plan til
Last birthday. He looked at the ones offered by the affordable care act. They were pricey and covers little. He went with Carefirst, our insurance and pays $260 a month. It is awesome insurance and covers pretty much everything. He doesn't even have co pays except for prescriptions. He has better insurance then we have now. Lol

 

[mom2rtk]

Really??? Thanks for telling me how to do my job.... I don't have "customers" but thanks anyway. Again, after talking to 1000's of people each year, I can certainly come HERE and say with confidence that most people do NOT think through their plans beyond either the premiums or the out of pocket costs and RARELY do people look at the whole picture. Now, if I go into an engineering firm, I don't really have to say anything because they have 47 spreadsheets made up with all the possible outcomes, other companies, not so much. I had one woman that refused to even consider an HSA plan because she had to open a bank account. I'm sure she had her reasons.....even your answers to my posts clearly show that people do not think it through as much as they think they do.

Actually if you get paid by someone to explain their benefits to them, then yes, they are your customers. And if you insult them the way you insult me, I can see some of them balking at your advice.

 

[sam_gordon]

Really??? Thanks for telling me how to do my job.... I don't have "customers" but thanks anyway. Again, after talking to 1000's of people each year, I can certainly come HERE and say with confidence that most people do NOT think through their plans beyond either the premiums or the out of pocket costs and RARELY do people look at the whole picture. Now, if I go into an engineering firm, I don't really have to say anything because they have 47 spreadsheets made up with all the possible outcomes, other companies, not so much. I had one woman that refused to even consider an HSA plan because she had to open a bank account. I'm sure she had her reasons.....even your answers to my posts clearly show that people do not think it through as much as they think they do.

I'm curious... when you're consulting with these people, are you taking into account how much they actually use medical services? As I said before, HSA seems to be great if you don't go to the doctor much or if you go a lot. You would need to know how people are using their plan, otherwise YOU'RE not looking at "the big picture". You can't just look at premiums and maximum out of pockets to determine what's cheapest.

 

[Tiggeroo]

Why not keep them on your plan? Is that less expensive overall vs them each having their own plans with their own out of pocket costs, etc.?

Again, depends on the structure of the plan, but if they put the premium difference into an HSA (if the plan is qualified) that is how they pay for their out of pocket costs.

Sorry, they are 26. Error. Actually in NJ you were able to keep your child on your plan until they were 30 before it became 26 nationwide. One of them is fully independent and the other pays all his own bills but is living here because he is back in school. i am looking into taking out a plan for our business rather then cobra and then seeing if there is a way to cover them. I work with many 20 somethings, single parents, newly divorced women and semi-retired folks. They are the ones who are having the toughest time with this. They really can't afford to fund an account that would make more sense and go with a lower cost/higher deductible plan. People who are in this position will if forced take the cheaper plan and then avoid going to the dr. If somebody stalls dr's visits until they are very sick it will end up costing more. Also, an er will have to see you. A specialist who you have to pay for until you reach your deductible does not. Same with imaging. I don't know what the solution is.

 

[Poohbear5]

Thanks, Affordable Care Act.

We share your pain and sympathize.
We are amongst the millions who liked our policy and were not able to keep it (cost went up by $6,000 for two of us).
The ACA is the largest and most burdensome tax on the American people in the history of this country.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

Again, you are missing the point--and fully illustrating what I am talking about...since I don't know your plan specifics I'm going to make up numbers:

co-pay plan premiums for the year say are $7200 for a family plan--pretty average premiums nationally. The premiums for the HD plan are say $2000/year for a family. You put $2500 into your FSA already, so you are already spending $9700/year for premiums and FSA dollars. You have a $5200 swing with just premium savings, put that $5200 plus $1450 of your previous FSA into your HSA, money you are already spending, and you have fully funded your HSA for the year and are $1000 to the good--so saving $1000. You then save $2000 or so on your taxes for the HSA to put into a limited purpose FSA and you now have about $500 MORE in your pocket at the end of the year with a fully funded HSA to boot.

This is assuming you have all the money at the bginning on the year. MOst people don't. They are looking at having to add money to their HSA every month/pay period. Their HSA won't be fully funded until the end of the year. What if something happens in February?

 

[sam_gordon]

Again, you are missing the point--and fully illustrating what I am talking about...since I don't know your plan specifics I'm going to make up numbers:

co-pay plan premiums for the year say are $7200 for a family plan--pretty average premiums nationally. The premiums for the HD plan are say $2000/year for a family. You put $2500 into your FSA already, so you are already spending $9700/year for premiums and FSA dollars. You have a $5200 swing with just premium savings, put that $5200 plus $1450 of your previous FSA into your HSA, money you are already spending, and you have fully funded your HSA for the year and are $1000 to the good--so saving $1000. You then save $2000 or so on your taxes for the HSA to put into a limited purpose FSA and you now have about $500 MORE in your pocket at the end of the year with a fully funded HSA to boot.

You can make up numbers to support anything. How about using some REAL numbers (or as close as I can remember it)...

Our HSA premium is ~$15-20 cheaper per paycheck. 26 paychecks = $1040 difference over the year, nowhere near the $5000 difference you're "making up". It will also take the whole year to get that $1000. In January, I'll be "up" $50. However, if I go the doctor in January, it will cost me $100.

ETA: We don't put money into an FSA. It's an option, but we don't utilize it.

 

[Happy Snowman]

I'm curious... when you're consulting with these people, are you taking into account how much they actually use medical services? As I said before, HSA seems to be great if you don't go to the doctor much or if you go a lot. You would need to know how people are using their plan, otherwise YOU'RE not looking at "the big picture". You can't just look at premiums and maximum out of pockets to determine what's cheapest.

Of course we look at all aspects

This is assuming you have all the money at the bginning on the year. MOst people don't. They are looking at having to add money to their HSA every month/pay period. Their HSA won't be fully funded until the end of the year. What if something happens in February?

What do they do if they need the money in February for a co-pay plan? There are still out of pocket costs associated with a co-pay plan and if something happens in February--where do they get the money to pay for that???

You can make up numbers to support anything. How about using some REAL numbers (or as close as I can remember it)...

Our HSA premium is ~$15-20 cheaper per paycheck. 26 paychecks = $1040 difference over the year, nowhere near the $5000 difference you're "making up". It will also take the whole year to get that $1000. In January, I'll be "up" $50. However, if I go the doctor in January, it will cost me $100.

ETA: We don't put money into an FSA. It's an option, but we don't utilize it.

I have given real examples with real figures..read back.... How do you pay for costs if you have a heart attack in January under your other plan? You don't have anything "saved up" then...