What are we meant to do with stimulus?

[mrodgers]

Dude, are you serious with this?

Like people can just choose not to pay rent or mortgage. Or choose not to eat or put gas in their cars to get to work. Get out of here with this classist take.

Things cost more than they did 50 years ago. And 30 years ago. And 10 years ago. Minimum wage has NOT kept up.

Without a living wage, we revert back to, essentially, slave wages. Is that what you want?

Have any data for the "minimum wage has NOT kept up."?

1938 was the first minimum wage in the US at $0.25/hour. For today's minimum wage to not have kept up, it would have had to be 4.18% inflation every year since 1938 for $7.50 to be "kept up." Inflation is not 4.18%. Calling $15/hour as keeping up with inflation, that means inflation has been 5.06% since the first minimum wage. How has it not kept up?


All I'm saying is, it's our fault, the consumers and the workers. The companies are doing what they are allowed to do by the decisions of people. For example, how expensive would an iPhone be if everyone who complains about the price of iPhones weren't standing in line for 3 days with their wallet out complaining about the price? Cars are getting ridiculous. Why is that? Could it be because we are willing to continue extending our debt for cars 7, 8, 9 years? We the consumers and workers have the power, we just refuse to show it.

 

[GreatLakes]

Dude, are you serious with this?

Like people can just choose not to pay rent or mortgage. Or choose not to eat or put gas in their cars to get to work. Get out of here with this classist take.

Things cost more than they did 50 years ago. And 30 years ago. And 10 years ago. Minimum wage has NOT kept up.

Without a living wage, we revert back to, essentially, slave wages. Is that what you want?

I believe what the poster is saying is you let supply and demand take care of it. Wages really aren't any different than any other price making a minimum wage an artificial price floor on labor.

If an employer sets their wage (read:demand) at $3.00 an hour workers decide if they are willing to supply them with labor at that price. If they feel the price is too low they supply no labor at that price. The employer then has to either forgo that job (withdraw demand) or raise the wage (price) to the point that the supply curve intersects their demand chart.

ETA: This isn't an endorsement, just an explanation.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Have any data for the "minimum wage has NOT kept up."?

1938 was the first minimum wage in the US at $0.25/hour. For today's minimum wage to not have kept up, it would have had to be 4.18% inflation every year since 1938 for $7.50 to be "kept up." Inflation is not 4.18%. Calling $15/hour as keeping up with inflation, that means inflation has been 5.06% since the first minimum wage. How has it not kept up?


All I'm saying is, it's our fault, the consumers and the workers. The companies are doing what they are allowed to do by the decisions of people. For example, how expensive would an iPhone be if everyone who complains about the price of iPhones weren't standing in line for 3 days with their wallet out complaining about the price? Cars are getting ridiculous. Why is that? Could it be because we are willing to continue extending our debt for cars 7, 8, 9 years? We the consumers and workers have the power, we just refuse to show it.

It would be $24/hour if it had kept up.
https://www.cepr.net/this-is-what-minimum-wage-would-be-if-it-kept-pace-with-productivity/
I can’t get into too deep here because it too closely borders politics, but your opinion isn’t support by economics.

It’s also important to point out that the average age of a fast food worker (so typical minimum wage) is not a teenager. They’re 29.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Median individual income was $35,977 ($17.30/hour) in 2019:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

 

[mrodgers]

Median individual income was $35,977 ($17.30/hour) in 2019:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

Depends on what the source is reporting which is why I just googled it and went with that number as everyone can easily seek out that as a source.

It's not that far off anyways, so we want to put 48% instead of 50% at the bottom of the barrel. It won't do any of us any good.

 

[DLgal]

Have any data for the "minimum wage has NOT kept up."?

1938 was the first minimum wage in the US at $0.25/hour. For today's minimum wage to not have kept up, it would have had to be 4.18% inflation every year since 1938 for $7.50 to be "kept up." Inflation is not 4.18%. Calling $15/hour as keeping up with inflation, that means inflation has been 5.06% since the first minimum wage. How has it not kept up?


All I'm saying is, it's our fault, the consumers and the workers. The companies are doing what they are allowed to do by the decisions of people. For example, how expensive would an iPhone be if everyone who complains about the price of iPhones weren't standing in line for 3 days with their wallet out complaining about the price? Cars are getting ridiculous. Why is that? Could it be because we are willing to continue extending our debt for cars 7, 8, 9 years? We the consumers and workers have the power, we just refuse to show it.

Inflation is not the only metric to measure.

 

[Colleen27]

The minimum wage is set too high. There should be no minimum wage. If you don't want to work for free, don't. If you don't want to work for $5/hour, don't. If you don't want to work for $7.50, don't.

The entire issue everyone has about the economy comes down to one thing, us. We are the reason prices are so high, we continue to pay the high prices. We are the reason wages are low, we continue to accept low wages. You can not legislate people into prosperity.

So now we have the push for $15/hour minimum wage. What happens to everyone already making $15/hour? They are now minimum wage. Median individual income in the US according to Google is $31.150 (I think when I looked it up last week.) That is $14.96/hour. That means half the workforce makes $0.04 less than they want minimum wage to be. That means half of the workforce will be minimum wage. That isn't good at all. HALF the workforce at minimum wage!!!

The problem with this position is that it relies on the fundamental fallacy of theoretical economics - the assumption that transactions in a free market take place between equals, who have equal information and equal economic power. That isn't the case in the real world, where the proliferation of mega corporations like Walmart and Amazon ensure that a large number of jobs are in positions with companies with enough economic power to set the wages in their sectors/markets and where, when a person needs to eat, any job is better than no job at all. And low wages have a way of breeding more demand for low-wage work as people try to work more than one job, or shift from one earner to two, or push older kids to get jobs to help the family to make up for the fact that they can't live on one job, so now you have three people willing to take whatever they can get. Minimum wage laws are a way for the government to step in to offset the imbalance of power between workers and employers.

Also, your math is off. Scholarly economic analysis regarding the push for a $15 minimum wage puts the percentage of Americans earning less at 28% (you can't figure it based on the median wage because the median includes part time earners).

 

[Colleen27]

Have any data for the "minimum wage has NOT kept up."?

1938 was the first minimum wage in the US at $0.25/hour. For today's minimum wage to not have kept up, it would have had to be 4.18% inflation every year since 1938 for $7.50 to be "kept up." Inflation is not 4.18%. Calling $15/hour as keeping up with inflation, that means inflation has been 5.06% since the first minimum wage. How has it not kept up?


All I'm saying is, it's our fault, the consumers and the workers. The companies are doing what they are allowed to do by the decisions of people. For example, how expensive would an iPhone be if everyone who complains about the price of iPhones weren't standing in line for 3 days with their wallet out complaining about the price? Cars are getting ridiculous. Why is that? Could it be because we are willing to continue extending our debt for cars 7, 8, 9 years? We the consumers and workers have the power, we just refuse to show it.

Two points here: First, I'm sure you know that inflation excludes nearly all of the major essentials of living (housing, medical care and energy), and as such might not be the best measure of whether wages (minimum or otherwise) are keeping up.

Second, consumers and workers only have the power en masse, and efforts to organize to leverage that power on the workers' side are undermined by the same people who oppose things like minimum wage and other worker protections. And even then, there are limits because exercising power requires a large number of people to commit to living without income for a unknown and potentially substantial period of time. Most people cannot do that, so they cannot realistically exercise what power they might have.

(Cars, though, aren't the best example. A lot of the price increase there has to do with improved, and often mandated, safety and environmental standards that companies have very little choice but to meet.)

 

[tex1989]

I never know where I really stand on minimum wage. In a way it is a vicious cycle. We don't want to pay more for things, people with lesser incomes don't want to pay more for things and yet setting a $15 minimum wage would cause us all to pay more. However on another front so many lower middle income jobs in manufacturing have been sent over seas for so long there is a shortage of those jobs to be had. One argument against the higher wage is that those starting out will have a harder time finding something and teenagers will be all but shutout of the market. Certainly minimum wage jobs were never meant to be a career position but as someone earlier pointed out the average age of Fast Food workers is something like 29 years old. The reality is there is a void of better paying jobs unless you receive training via a vocation or college. The mid century idea of graduating from high school and getting a job that you could sustain a life and a family on is just not real anymore. It is a difficult issue that we have to figure out because the spread between the rich and the poor grows everyday.

 

[Orion Nebula]

Stimulus checks were issued strictly for Disney trips, anyone caught using them for more responsible things will get penalized.

 

[DLgal]

I never know where I really stand on minimum wage. In a way it is a vicious cycle. We don't want to pay more for things, people with lesser incomes don't want to pay more for things and yet setting a $15 minimum wage would cause us all to pay more. However on another front so many lower middle income jobs in manufacturing have been sent over seas for so long there is a shortage of those jobs to be had. One argument against the higher wage is that those starting out will have a harder time finding something and teenagers will be all but shutout of the market. Certainly minimum wage jobs were never meant to be a career position but as someone earlier pointed out the average age of Fast Food workers is something like 29 years old. The reality is there is a void of better paying jobs unless you receive training via a vocation or college. The mid century idea of graduating from high school and getting a job that you could sustain a life and a family on is just not real anymore. It is a difficult issue that we have to figure out because the spread between the rich and the poor grows everyday.

The argument that raising the minimum wage means prices of everything has to go up is false. The minimum wage in my state is $14/hr. I don't pay more for most basic necessities than my parents who live in FL. I shop primarily at big box and corporate stores. Their prices are the same nationwide. The things that cost more here have nothing to do with our minimum wage requirement. Gas, housing, utilities, etc, are all, high here, but they have always been that way. It isn't to do with minimum wage being $14.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The argument that raising the minimum wage means prices of everything has to go up is false. The minimum wage in my state is $14/hr. I don't pay more for most basic necessities than my parents who live in FL. I shop primarily at big box and corporate stores. Their prices are the same nationwide. The things that cost more here have nothing to do with our minimum wage requirement. Gas, housing, utilities, etc, are all, high here, but they have always been that way. It isn't to do with minimum wage being $14.

Must be different here because prices do vary even at different Walmart locations (excludes discussion of sales tax). I can't say I have paid attention in a minute way but I know for sure there are times where prices are varied for the same product at a different store location (also excludes clearance).

But I *think* the argument is that it gets passed down to the consumer as a whole. Sometimes that's the restaurant owner who passes the cost to the patrons. In a situation where you have chain stores they may raise the price across the board (or mostly across the board) so it may still be the case that you pay the same as those in FL but that the price was increased to account for higher wages. Not everything is determined locally. Now whether this truly happens on a large enough scale or in a significant manner is a completely different discussion but things do get passed onto consumers all the time. And I'm very much for the protection afforded by minimum wage nor am I making the argument that it's a given that prices go up as minimum wage goes up but companies largely operate off of profits so when something eats into that they look for ways to offset and often the consumers end up being the ones to offset. Sometimes the company may not hire as many workers or they may not give as many hours or they may not make people full time (which avoids paying benefits), and sometimes they raise the price on their goods to account for it.

You're right that where you live COL plays a large role but that doesn't mean that an ever increasing minimum wage won't have any effect it just may be not as noticeable.

 

[tex1989]

The argument that raising the minimum wage means prices of everything has to go up is false. The minimum wage in my state is $14/hr. I don't pay more for most basic necessities than my parents who live in FL. I shop primarily at big box and corporate stores. Their prices are the same nationwide. The things that cost more here have nothing to do with our minimum wage requirement. Gas, housing, utilities, etc, are all, high here, but they have always been that way. It isn't to do with minimum wage being $14.

See without the benefit of some study that shows this, I don't buy the argument. Cost of living varies greatly by state and location. Restaurants and Fast Food places of business operate on thinner margins to begin with so raising the minimum wage will have an effect. Now if we are talking about insurance then yeah no cost increases. It will be selective by product or offering but with the number of minimum wage workers in the US today to say a move to $15 would not have an effect is not realistic. Seattle did a minimum wage law and immediately national franchises such as Sub Way were at a disadvantage because they had to move the higher wage sooner while locally owned businesses had several years to get to the higher wage. The irony of the law was the Subway franchises were owned by franchisees who were locals.

It will effect prices.

 

[DLgal]

See without the benefit of some study that shows this, I don't buy the argument. Cost of living varies greatly by state and location. Restaurants and Fast Food places of business operate on thinner margins to begin with so raising the minimum wage will have an effect. Now if we are talking about insurance then yeah no cost increases. It will be selective by product or offering but with the number of minimum wage workers in the US today to say a move to $15 would not have an effect is not realistic. Seattle did a minimum wage law and immediately national franchises such as Sub Way were at a disadvantage because they had to move the higher wage sooner while locally owned businesses had several years to get to the higher wage. The irony of the law was the Subway franchises were owned by franchisees who were locals.

It will effect prices.

Any proposed minimum wage increases will be incremental in nature. They won't suddenly go from $7.25/hr to $15/hr overnight. I believe the last proposal was to reach $15 by 2025. Businesses will have time to adjust. In CA, it is set to reach $15/hr on Jan 1, 2022. The increases began in 2017. It also only applies to companies with more than 26 employees, so VERY small businesses are exempt. This is similar to the Federal Minimum Wage increase proposal.

 

[LuvOrlando]

If you want to do the best thing for your local community use it in services and in tips because that spending is mainlined directly into your community an the payoff in income and tax revenues will be very high. Go get haircuts, tip your waitress a bit extra, get a babysitter, spluge for a local kid to trim your lawn, tip the postal worker, pay a neighbor to clean your gutters or trim your hedges - I keep 5's & 10's and have been tipping all my curbside delivery people and instacart people since the start of this mess for maximum infusion, I kiss my 5's and 10's goodbye and command to go forth and multiply. It's called the Multiplier effect and it is miraculous, the thing is it doesn't work when buying things unless those things are made locally, like honey or a wine from a local vineyard. You want to get it from your hand into another local had in one way or another for maximum benefit.

 

[nwandless32]

Overall, I find this very hard to believe. $1400 isn’t enough for anybody to quit a job over.

This also happens every year when tax returns come in. My father in law had to replace 15% of his employees last year in the fast food service industry when tax returns came in. The workers will live off of the tax return until it runs out then go and get a new job. He also has a store that was closed for Covid and now that things have opened up he has not been able to open one of the store because people are not applying for the jobs. For you 1400 dollars may not be enough to quit a job, but it may be for others. Why do you think this is hard to believe?

 

[LuvOrlando]

This also happens every year when tax returns come in. My father in law had to replace 15% of his employees last year in the fast food service industry when tax returns came in. The workers will live off of the tax return until it runs out then go and get a new job. He also has a store that was closed for Covid and now that things have opened up he has not been able to open one of the store because people are not applying for the jobs. For you 1400 dollars may not be enough to quit a job, but it may be for others. Why do you think this is hard to believe?

Do they get vacation time? Sick time? Thing is a lot of workers are in "work or leave" sorts of jobs with bosses who won't compromise so they do have no choice but to quit if they want a break. The money isn't the problem, the lack of work life balance is the issue and a majority of the people who complain about these worker behaviors have never had to live with the circumstances so they just don't get it. I bet if your father in law allowed for time off he wouldn't need to endlessly retrain, it's an expensive mistake in most services industries because there are no benefits, so no ties and nothing holding employees to the job. Retraining is costly in terms of time spent and customer service losses getting the hires up to speed., it would be better for everyone if bosses just gave people some leeway and didn't treat it as a con of some kind.

 

[nwandless32]

Do they get vacation time? Sick time? Thing is a lot of workers are in "work or leave" sorts of jobs with bosses who won't compromise so they do have no choice but to quit if they want a break. The money isn't the problem, the lack of work life balance is the issue and a majority of the people who complain about these worker behaviors have never had to live with the circumstances so they just don't get it. I bet if your father in law allowed for time off he wouldn't need to endlessly retrain, it's an expensive mistake in most services industries because there are no benefits, so no ties and nothing holding employees to the job. Retraining is costly in terms of time spent and customer service losses getting the hires up to speed., it would be better for everyone if bosses just gave people some leeway and didn't treat it as a con of some kind.

The reason that these most fast food employees don't get vacation time or sick time is because the profit margins are not as big as most think in the fast food industry. Some days he looses money on slow days because the revenue of the store does not beat the wages he has to pay. I'm sure that he would like to pay his employees vacation time and sick time but the money is just not there. I agree to all the points you made about sick and vacation time these owners don't have the funds to get this accomplished. You are wanting a lot of benefits for minimum wage jobs that would never return on that investment.

 

[LuvOrlando]

The reason that these most fast food employees don't get vacation time or sick time is because the profit margins are not as big as most think in the fast food industry. Some days he looses money on slow days because the revenue of the store does not beat the wages he has to pay. I'm sure that he would like to pay his employees vacation time and sick time but the money is just not there. I agree to all the points you made about sick and vacation time these owners don't have the funds to get this accomplished. You are wanting a lot of benefits for minimum wage jobs that would never return on that investment.

I know, it's a really bad cycle and is tough on everyone but for every business owner who wants to do the right thing there are tons who exploit. I do understand the way it works on both sides, it's not easy but in the end the business owners are in the power position and somehow they always get the voice with policy makers.

There are millions of very hard workers out in the world who work tirelessly and can't afford even the basics, can't care for their families much less have a sign up somewhere with their name of it as a business owner. In the US restaurant workers are paid appallingly because it is assumed that they can live on tips, I tip & have taught my kids to tip well but lots of people don't tip at all for a multitude of reasons, so the reasoning is fundamentally flawed and really hurts everyone. At any rate, even if there is no pay for a time off break employers really do need to adapt to make allowances if they want to survive. I bet those employers who make concessions will attract better & more loyal workers and up the profits in the end, it's a penny wise pound foolish sort of situation, what good is it to get a break on wages if your turnover is so high the business can't operate properly? Best guess is if small business owners, like your FIL, were offered serious tax break incentives for improving worker pay etc things would right themselves. Lots of states and communities (Idaho Tax Reimbursement Incentive was one I think) started to experiment with local economic city planning by creating tax havens to draw in new workers and businesses just prior to Covid, hoping to draw in high wage earners and solid businesses which could float the local economies. It's smart, I hope the elegant thinking makes its way to more mainstream communities which will support everyone, especially small business owners, like your FIL, and their workers.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

This also happens every year when tax returns come in. My father in law had to replace 15% of his employees last year in the fast food service industry when tax returns came in. The workers will live off of the tax return until it runs out then go and get a new job. He also has a store that was closed for Covid and now that things have opened up he has not been able to open one of the store because people are not applying for the jobs. For you 1400 dollars may not be enough to quit a job, but it may be for others. Why do you think this is hard to believe?

My wording clearly could have been better, but I meant it more that I don’t believe over the poster’s client’s many restaurants, the majority of their staff was calling in because of the stimulus. I absolutely shouldn’t have said “anybody”, but in the situation I was replying to, it really sounds more like a work environment issue and not the stimulus. And I think the assumption on the restaurant owner for the reason is wrong. It really lacks any understanding of other situations that could be plausible right now.