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Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

I suspect it's because DVC deposits a lot of 1BR into RCI at SSR. At least, it's a plausible explanation for such anomaly.

I have told her that I've seen the charts published by someone who logged in every two weeks and checked year around availability, showing that 1BR are in much lower demand than 2BR.
Her reply (and I think I can quote word by word): "According to the data we have this is false".
Sorry

I get the arguments about whether the allocation is illegal - but I have to say it's above my brain function to interpret the legal documents.

The comments from @zavandor above still have my brain spinning, though.

The fact is that "availability" and "demand" are two different things. A type of unit can have high demand but also LOTS of availability. I put a long post about this on the 2020 Point Chart thread which I won't repeat here - but this is the link: https://www.disboards.com/threads/2020-point-charts.3725229/page-30#post-60133500

In short - there is a path to demand for 1BDs are higher than 2BDs, but only in a scenario where the supply for 1-BDs are higher. So while I am personally skeptical, i could see it being possible that the statement "According to the date we have this is false" could be real because they DO have access to more data than we do.

If I were to have the opportunity to follow-up this question - I would ask them "Can you let me know what sort of data you look at to get this analysis - what is the basis for the data?" I would never expect them to share the actual data - but if they could give us an idea what they are using...if it's something stupid like "the number of searches on the availability tool" I will certainly have issues with this.
 
I just got off the phone with the Club Management and Regulatory Affairs Division. The bottom line was the changes were made for the benefit of members to increase openings in studios and 1BRs since they are in greater demand, and that the points adjustments would somehow get members to book more 2BRs. I pointed out that such would not be the case, and that the increases would only force members to lose nights. Also, I stressed that members who book studios and 1BRs are not going to book 2BRs if they don't even have sufficient points for the studios and 1BRs, and if their number of occupants doesn't require a 2BR. I told them these changes will only increase breakage for their benefit. I also agreed with them that the studios are in greater demand, but I pointed out that at BLT and VGF, 2 of my resorts, that I can still book full week 1BRs May of 2019. There might be more vacancies in the 2BRs, but one can't tell without more data. They also stated that, as we are aware, the reallocation can't change the overall point total.

Obviously, there are a lot of unhappy members because they were making multiple calls. Will they make any changes because of the feedback? Who knows? Hopefully, they will scrap the 2020 changes before they get started., but I doubt it.

They would have to scrap the changes before February 1st, that is very unlikely. I am glad to see they are getting multiple contacts around this.
 
Here is the Product Understanding Checklist from our 06/09/1993 purchase at OKW.

A number of changes have been made since then - Borrowing was limited to 50%, "If other resorts become affiliated with the Disney Vacation Club, you will have a 30-day priority period to make reservations at your Home Resort", "Borrowed points may not be used for reservations in this Home Resort Priority Period.", "Holding Account Vacation Points can only be used to make a reservation that ends within 30 days of when it is requested ", "Occupancy in Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a Studio, 4 persons in a 1-Bedroom, 8 persons in a 2-Bedroom and 12 persons in a 3-Bedroom Grand Villa."

Some of the comments in this thread seem to suggest that any changes made since this document was used should not be valid. Have I misunderstood those comments?
 

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Here is the Product Understanding Checklist from our 06/09/1993 purchase at OKW.

A number of changes have been made since then - Borrowing was limited to 50%, "If other resorts become affiliated with the Disney Vacation Club, you will have a 30-day priority period to make reservations at your Home Resort", "Borrowed points may not be used for reservations in this Home Resort Priority Period.", "Holding Account Vacation Points can only be used to make a reservation that ends within 30 days of when it is requested ", "Occupancy in Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a Studio, 4 persons in a 1-Bedroom, 8 persons in a 2-Bedroom and 12 persons in a 3-Bedroom Grand Villa."

Some of the comments in this thread seem to suggest that any changes made since this document was used should not be valid. Have I misunderstood those comments?
I think the current suggestion is that the Product Understanding Checklist has expressed different interpretations in the Resort POSs. However, those sections of the Resort POS that was applicable to the Product Understanding Checklist hasn't changed.

Basically, they are suggesting that the prior (before VGF) said the cost of the Vacation Home per night could adjust based on seasonal demand. However with VGF it was adjusted to relative demand and with CCV it basically says it could adjust and gives no reasons why that would happen. This suggests a deliberate change in DVCMC view/interpretation of the sections in the Resort POSs that give them the authority to adjust/change the cost of a Use Day in a Vacation Home Type. The important point is the POS didn't change in its wording to suggest the difference between seasonal and relative demand by DVCMC has apparently a different view.

Your posted Product Understanding Checklist say they will specifically only adjust based on seasonal demand. Not relative demand among Vacation Home Types. Thus this implies adjustments within a given Vacation Home Type. Also many of the other items that you suggested changed were modified or already allowed to be modified directly in the POS. Its just this section of Product Understanding Checklist and POS suggests a different/evolving view/interpretation not occurring because of amendments to the POS.
 


I think the current suggestion is that the Product Understanding Checklist has expressed different interpretations in the Resort POSs. However, those sections of the Resort POS that was applicable to the Product Understanding Checklist hasn't changed.

Basically, they are suggesting that the prior (before VGF) said the cost of the Vacation Home per night could adjust based on seasonal demand. However with VGF it was adjusted to relative demand and with CCV it basically says it could adjust and gives no reasons why that would happen. This suggests a deliberate change in DVCMC view/interpretation of the sections in the Resort POSs that give them the authority to adjust/change the cost of a Use Day in a Vacation Home Type. The important point is the POS didn't change in its wording to suggest the difference between seasonal and relative demand by DVCMC has apparently a different view.

Your posted Product Understanding Checklist say they will specifically only adjust based on seasonal demand. Not relative demand among Vacation Home Types. Thus this implies adjustments within a given Vacation Home Type. Also many of the other items that you suggested changed were modified or already allowed to be modified directly in the POS. Its just this section of Product Understanding Checklist and POS suggests a different/evolving view/interpretation not occurring because of amendments to the POS.

So, we can all accept which items we like and complain about other changes?
 
OK... not to sound obtuse, but if I'm being real? Over the course of these last 45 pages, I've gotten lost as to what we are arguing is wrong at this point.

Are we suggesting that they are not allowed to reallocate across unit types? From what I'm reading, DVD most certainly changed their early intentions of how reallocations would be seasonal (the distinct impression I got when I bought), but they are legally within their right to change the POS/PUC at will, so what legal leg would we have to stand on here?

Are we saying that the point reallocation isn't balanced? Because it is if you look at the lockoffs only as 2BRs, which it appears is how DVCMC is defining the balancing elements, then it technically is. They're just increasing the lockoff premium, which again, it appears they have the legal right to do.

Are we saying the reallocation doesn't serve the larger membership? Because apparently they have data that says demand on studios and 1BRs are really much higher than 2BRs; we just have no way to verify that assertion... so how do you argue this point? This part defies everything I've observed and is the part that has me most perplexed. But still not sure what the recourse would be.

Are we unconvinced of their line of thinking that this will push people to 2BRs? I'm not convinced of this, but it seems that legally they could decide everyone should be using Grand Villas in order to free up studios at 7 months to better the larger membership and we couldn't argue otherwise, as we can't know what that will do. We can be skeptical, but if they're saying this was the intention, what could we do/say to argue otherwise?

At this point, like others, I feel a lot of frustration with the lack of transparency, but honestly, I can't put my finger on which part I could argue is in violation of the user agreement. It really feels like we've signed over so many rights and have granted TWDC free reign to do whatever they want with the property. As Wil pointed out, BWV has changed its POS 40 times since 1996. That averages out to a change every 7 months. All done legally.

I'm still waiting to hear from them about my email from last week, but I'm no longer sure what to say to them if they did get in touch with me now that they've shot down every point Zavandor has made and insist they have data, that they won't show us, to support their decision. Can someone summarize for those of us who will be talking to them, what exactly we are disputing with Disney about at this point? I need talking points.

It feels like it's been a bit of a moving target. And every time it changes, it seems there is more reason to believe DVCMC/DVD really can do whatever the hell they want. So we can ***** and moan that it's unfair, or that it sucks, but it's basically the way it's going to be.

And there it is, the fourth stage of grief: Depression.
 
So, we can all accept which items we like and complain about other changes?
That wasn't my point at all. I was merely wrapping up peoples comments and interpretations thus far as I've read them. I think personally comments like this are reductive.

I think it is fair to point out that the "legal" wording of the POS has not changed in the history DVC with relation to the reallocation of Vacation Home Points; however, point out the Product Understanding Checklist does show an evolution on DVCMC and DVD's interpretation of that section. Seasonal vs relative demand. To the point they simply didn't even provide a reason for change anymore.

As to your comment on the other items being different from what they are today, I was merely pointing out amendments or allowances were already given in the POS to allow for those changes. Since these aren't interpretation issues but change in policy.

It is clearly laid out in the POS that the Banking and Borrowing can be limited or removed at anytime. It is clear the home priority window is 1 month at minimum but can be extended to any length. However, the reallocation section isn't clear because DVCMC and DVD has chosen to explain this section very differently at different times in the history of DVC without updating the language.
 


They have access to what people search for, what they ask for when they call, how many villas are booked and available and when they are booked, when they are completely gone, cancelation patterns, surveys and the like. They have access to it by day of year, day of week, season, across resorts, etc. I have no idea what data they actually used or had but these are all pieces of information they could have easily considered and gathered. The idea of simply a unit being available is a small piece of the puzzle but I realize it's all we have on this end.

My point is that searches don't mean anything until it is booked. Or else I am unique in that I leave my searches very open ended to see all options. It is not like putting in an ongoing search for some unit under an exchange program. It's looking at real time availability and if not available then you waitlist. But I'd argue that waitlists also aren't necessarily an indicator of demand as people will be more likely to waitlist something they feel has the best chance of coming thru so that they at least get a room.

The only real indicator of demand is actual inventory availability - not searches.
 
OK... not to sound obtuse, but if I'm being real? Over the course of these last 45 pages, I've gotten lost as to what we are arguing is wrong at this point.

Are we suggesting that they are not allowed to reallocate across unit types? From what I'm reading, DVD most certainly changed their early intentions of how reallocations would be seasonal (the distinct impression I got when I bought), but they are legally within their right to change the POS/PUC at will, so what legal leg would we have to stand on here?

Are we saying that the point reallocation isn't balanced? Because it is if you look at the lockoffs only as 2BRs, which it appears is how DVCMC is defining the balancing elements, then it technically is. They're just increasing the lockoff premium, which again, it appears they have the legal right to do.

Are we saying the reallocation doesn't serve the larger membership? Because apparently they have data that says demand on studios and 1BRs are really much higher than 2BRs; we just have no way to verify that assertion... so how do you argue this point? This part defies everything I've observed and is the part that has me most perplexed. But still not sure what the recourse would be.

Are we unconvinced of their line of thinking that this will push people to 2BRs? I'm not convinced of this, but it seems that legally they could decide everyone should be using Grand Villas in order to free up studios at 7 months to better the larger membership and we couldn't argue otherwise, as we can't know what that will do. We can be skeptical, but if they're saying this was the intention, what could we do/say to argue otherwise?

At this point, like others, I feel a lot of frustration with the lack of transparency, but honestly, I can't put my finger on which part I could argue is in violation of the user agreement. It really feels like we've signed over so many rights and have granted TWDC free reign to do whatever they want with the property. As Wil pointed out, BWV has changed its POS 40 times since 1996. That averages out to a change every 7 months. All done legally.

I'm still waiting to hear from them about my email from last week, but I'm no longer sure what to say to them if they did get in touch with me now that they've shot down every point Zavandor has made and insist they have data, that they won't show us, to support their decision. Can someone summarize for those of us who will be talking to them, what exactly we are disputing with Disney about at this point? I need talking points.

It feels like it's been a bit of a moving target. And every time it changes, it seems there is more reason to believe DVCMC/DVD really can do whatever the hell they want. So we can ***** and moan that it's unfair, or that it sucks, but it's basically the way it's going to be.

And there it is, the fourth stage of grief: Depression.
To your first point they haven't updated the POS to update the section on the reallocation limitations. The one I have for Copper Creek and all it's amendments is identical to most of the prior POS (VGF is unique because it defines the lock-off premium). Seem to suggest it hasn't been changed.

As for arguments that have been thrown around that I know of following this thread are:

1) Reallocation isn't based on demand because people view the 1 Beds being the last to go means they have less demand thus should be cheaper. I don't necessarily agree to that because studio demand creates excess 1 beds through lock-offs being broken up. So this is hard to judge IMO.
2) Reallocation of points must be seasonal and stay within a given Vacation Home Type. This to me is a gray area and hard to say without hiring a lawyer to review.
3) Maximum Reallocation language implies some upper limit to the number of points required to reserve a given Vacation Home Type. Personally this is the one I've chosen to address with DVCMC and spoke with them on the phone about (Compliance and Legal). They requested more time to research it as they were not sure. Mind you these were very high up individual at DVCMC that didn't know the answer and called me back in direct response to a letter I sent Certified explaining it and highlighting the language.
 
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My point is that searches don't mean anything until it is booked. Or else I am unique in that I leave my searches very open ended to see all options. It is not like putting in an ongoing search for some unit under an exchange program. It's looking at real time availability and if not available then you waitlist. But I'd argue that waitlists also aren't necessarily an indicator of demand as people will be more likely to waitlist something they feel has the best chance of coming thru so that they at least get a room.

The only real indicator of demand is actual inventory availability - not searches.
Another indicator of demand could be waitlisting after reserving a room. DVC could reasonably assume if someone booked a 1 bedroom then immediately setup a waitlist for a studio or 2 bedroom, and never cancelled the waitlist, then the true intentions of that person was a studio or 2 bedroom. But I agree the only indicator we have is availability but data mining and machine learning (which I'm confident DVCMC is doing) would most certainly to a high degree have some model that explains their allocations. This of course right or wrong. Merely saying I'm sure DVCMC could create anything to give them an out to show they intended to do it based on "demand"
 
To your first point they haven't updated the POS to update the section on the reallocation limitations. The one I have for Copper Creek and all it's amendments is identical to most of the prior POS (VGF is unique because it defines the lock-off premium). Seem to suggest it hasn't been changed.
But all they would have to do is change the POS again, right? Then they’re back to being in compliance.

Could still use a bulleted list of what our talking points should be.
 
DVCMC has not attempted any applicable amendment. It is not sending out a written notice to ALL members, as required for an amendment, stating that DVCMC is now going to adjust points on the basis of different demand among sizes of vacation homes and thus, for example, can, in its judgment, raise all the points for a year in a studio and 1BR and lower them for 2BRs because, for no apparent reason, it believes that all room sizes are supposed to have relatively equal demand, a concept contrary to what any hotel or resort would believe is supposed to happen when it has both hotel rooms and 1BR and 2BR suites.

To make that amendment it would have to change the language of the Member Agreement to say it has the right to change not just on the basis of "fluctuations in use day demand," but also on the basis of "fluctuations in demand for the varying sized vacation homes." It would have to remove in reference to "another use day" for the changes. It would also have to change the maximum reallocation provisions, and amounts needed in that situation for trade-outs, because once you accept that DVCMC can continuously make changes by shifting 2BR points to studios until it gets relatively equal demand for both, you have to accept that the existing maximum reallocation numbers are meaningless and either have to be replaced or eliminated.

In other words, to do an amendment, DVCMC would have to create a written document, sent to ALL members, that would appear on the internet in numerous places, that screams: "when we sold you enough points to get studios and told you that changes could be made if there were seasonal variations, and any increases in a vacation home would have to be met by offsetting decrease in another season, we really did not mean that because we were really retaining the power to make any damn change we want to make."

DVCMC has not done that written amendment to ALL members. That would create a high risk of being something that could become internet famous among members and potentially noticeable by many who may consider purchasing in the future. And it would not just be something a disgruntled member is raising on the internet but instead something DVCMC expressly asserts in writing it can do now and in the future. That kind of amendment could have an impact on DVD's current program of charging enormous prices per point for a new resort, having high per night point costs, but getting large numbers to buy 50 or 100 points, so they can get just studios.

So, no, DVC has not chosen the upfront method of doing this via a written amendment (and I would still question its legality if it did) provided to every member. Instead, it has a chosen a backdoor method by first, in the last few years, changing the Product Understanding document given to purchasers, and now has issued new point charts, and has its front-line personnel, who are dealing with this, act like DVC always believed it could make point changes among sizes of vacation homes. Now, we have active members raising the problems but this is not a universal thing. Most members likely do not even know there has been any change yet; that will simply happen over time and thus DVCMC keeps the battles fairly small at any given time, keeping the odds high that new purchasers will not learn of the dispute or its real impact on their decision to purchase, and allows DVD sales personnel to respond to potential purchasers, if they mention having seen complaints on the internet, that it is just some disgruntled purchasers raising things that do not really impact on the purchaser, and there really is no valid basis for the complaints being made.
 
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Based on DVC's current interpretation of the POS, what is to stop them from creating a resort with only really cheap studios (in order to make people buy) and ultra expensive grand villas, selling small 100 point contracts to everyone who wants to stay in studios and then later once the resort is sold out changing the point allocation. Nothing. Oh wait, they already did that at the POLY!
 
But all they would have to do is change the POS again, right? Then they’re back to being in compliance.

Could still use a bulleted list of what our talking points should be.
They could however you can't do it post breaking the POS. However, I think the reallocation section does have limitation from regulators on exactly what can happen here. Else I feel like they would have at this point.

My main talking point has always been our right to reserve a Vacation Home Type for every X Vacation Points along with the maximum reallocation section. Which to clarify I talked to Compliance and Legal (DVCMC legal department) and they told me the maximum reallocation was meant to define the worse case scenario only, when I asked if it implied a maximum average nightly point cost (which they avoided answering). I then said I think those are not mutually exclusive in fact the same because under what they just said was "worse case scenario" cost less to reserve some Vacation Home Types than the 2020 point charts. They then said they needed a week to see the exact interpretation of the text. So their Admin already has me scheduled to talk with them in a little less than a week know. I do believe the Maximum Reallocation section is something that Florida Regulators require timeshares to put in there so likely can't be changed (based on something said during the call).
 
Based on DVC's current interpretation of the POS, what is to stop them from creating a resort with only really cheap studios (in order to make people buy) and ultra expensive grand villas, selling small 100 point contracts to everyone who wants to stay in studios and then later once the resort is sold out changing the point allocation. Nothing. Oh wait, they already did that at the POLY!
I think personally this is what the maximum reallocation section is exactly meant to stop from happening. Though DVCMC hasn't chosen to consider that section (to which they are taking a week to come up with the response post phone call with them). Also they told me the regulators require this section. It also is the basis for what DVC is worth in relation to RCI so if they keep changing them too much RCI will eventually get upset.

An interesting thing I found out is if a Guaranteed week is short on points DVC must use Developer Points to make the week whole. So if a week cost 200 points but the owner of the Guaranteed Week only bought 120 points (the week cost 109 at time of sale so they bought the 10% premium) DVC must fork over 80 points from their points for that specific resort. So that should likely control them somewhat from what they can dump into the resort. It can not come from breakage they told me it had to be points DVC specifically owns. The Guaranteed Weeks wouldn't have required or minimized the number of Developer Points if they kept point changes within a Vacation Home Type.
 
My point is that searches don't mean anything until it is booked. Or else I am unique in that I leave my searches very open ended to see all options. It is not like putting in an ongoing search for some unit under an exchange program. It's looking at real time availability and if not available then you waitlist. But I'd argue that waitlists also aren't necessarily an indicator of demand as people will be more likely to waitlist something they feel has the best chance of coming thru so that they at least get a room.

The only real indicator of demand is actual inventory availability - not searches.
Are you saying that what's booked is the measure of demand, if so, I would disagree. To me that's only a portion of it, and really a small portion, it really comes down to what are people's first choice of dates, resort and unit size within the current rules and costs. And that was my point, they have a lot of data beyond and actually better than simply what's available at a given time even over time.

John, that was partly my point. We're not going to solve anything here, we'll need to decide whether to put any major effort into this including finances ( up to and including legal action), submit ourselves or give up or vote with our feet. Ultimately those are really the only types of choices we have I believe though there are some interim steps.

Intent goes a long way in these types of situations including the FL statutes and the POS. The intent was clearly to give themselves options to adjust without any real limit. The 20% per year isn't a real limit IMO. Am I convinced we'll have more 2 BR booked than would have before (on average and over time), absolutely, how much is the question. If the change doesn't give the desired outcome, they'll make other changes at some point and they may have others planned already.
 
thus, for example, can, in its judgment, raise all the points for a year in a studio and 1BR and lower them for 2BRs because, for no apparent reason, it believes that all room sizes are supposed to have relatively equal demand, a concept contrary to what any hotel or resort would believe is supposed to happen when it has both hotel rooms and 1BR and 2BR suites.
I actually don't see anything wrong with this. I would expect them to want to have equal levels of supply and demand.
 
OK... not to sound obtuse, but if I'm being real? Over the course of these last 45 pages, I've gotten lost as to what we are arguing is wrong at this point.

Are we suggesting that they are not allowed to reallocate across unit types? From what I'm reading, DVD most certainly changed their early intentions of how reallocations would be seasonal (the distinct impression I got when I bought), but they are legally within their right to change the POS/PUC at will, so what legal leg would we have to stand on here?

Are we saying that the point reallocation isn't balanced? Because it is if you look at the lockoffs only as 2BRs, which it appears is how DVCMC is defining the balancing elements, then it technically is. They're just increasing the lockoff premium, which again, it appears they have the legal right to do.

Are we saying the reallocation doesn't serve the larger membership? Because apparently they have data that says demand on studios and 1BRs are really much higher than 2BRs; we just have no way to verify that assertion... so how do you argue this point? This part defies everything I've observed and is the part that has me most perplexed. But still not sure what the recourse would be.

Are we unconvinced of their line of thinking that this will push people to 2BRs? I'm not convinced of this, but it seems that legally they could decide everyone should be using Grand Villas in order to free up studios at 7 months to better the larger membership and we couldn't argue otherwise, as we can't know what that will do. We can be skeptical, but if they're saying this was the intention, what could we do/say to argue otherwise?

At this point, like others, I feel a lot of frustration with the lack of transparency, but honestly, I can't put my finger on which part I could argue is in violation of the user agreement. It really feels like we've signed over so many rights and have granted TWDC free reign to do whatever they want with the property. As Wil pointed out, BWV has changed its POS 40 times since 1996. That averages out to a change every 7 months. All done legally.

I'm still waiting to hear from them about my email from last week, but I'm no longer sure what to say to them if they did get in touch with me now that they've shot down every point Zavandor has made and insist they have data, that they won't show us, to support their decision. Can someone summarize for those of us who will be talking to them, what exactly we are disputing with Disney about at this point? I need talking points.

It feels like it's been a bit of a moving target. And every time it changes, it seems there is more reason to believe DVCMC/DVD really can do whatever the hell they want. So we can ***** and moan that it's unfair, or that it sucks, but it's basically the way it's going to be.

And there it is, the fourth stage of grief: Depression.

Thank you for this summary of these 46 pages (and counting). I've been following along and honestly I've been somewhat lost at times. So many smart people on this forum it makes my head spin.
 
OK... not to sound obtuse, but if I'm being real? Over the course of these last 45 pages, I've gotten lost as to what we are arguing is wrong at this point.

Are we suggesting that they are not allowed to reallocate across unit types? From what I'm reading, DVD most certainly changed their early intentions of how reallocations would be seasonal (the distinct impression I got when I bought), but they are legally within their right to change the POS/PUC at will, so what legal leg would we have to stand on here?

There is definitely still a contingent on here that thinks this is illegal. I am not convinced this is so. This has been going on for a long time, and it would've been stopped by someone by now.

Are we saying that the point reallocation isn't balanced? Because it is if you look at the lockoffs only as 2BRs, which it appears is how DVCMC is defining the balancing elements, then it technically is. They're just increasing the lockoff premium, which again, it appears they have the legal right to do.

I agree - they have not done anything illegal on point reallocation. And from what I can tell not one person has suggested the lockoff premium is illegal. Self-serving and unethical, sure. Illegal, no.

Are we saying the reallocation doesn't serve the larger membership? Because apparently they have data that says demand on studios and 1BRs are really much higher than 2BRs; we just have no way to verify that assertion... so how do you argue this point? This part defies everything I've observed and is the part that has me most perplexed. But still not sure what the recourse would be.

This is likely the ONLY way to win this case - to somehow demonstrate that what they've done doesn't serve the larger membership. And I don't see a path to winning this argument. They have all the data and they won't share. Our availability charts wouldn't mean much against what they have.

Are we unconvinced of their line of thinking that this will push people to 2BRs? I'm not convinced of this, but it seems that legally they could decide everyone should be using Grand Villas in order to free up studios at 7 months to better the larger membership and we couldn't argue otherwise, as we can't know what that will do. We can be skeptical, but if they're saying this was the intention, what could we do/say to argue otherwise?

Well, I have to say that this DOES likely push people (Slightly) to 2-bedrooms. People with more points might consider - hey I'll take a family trip and get more out of my points. The problem is - ONE BEDROOMS ARE LEAST IN DEMAND. So it solves a problem that I genuinely believe doesn't exist. However, I think this shift is extremely minor - like on the order of 1 or 2% of member bookings.

At this point, like others, I feel a lot of frustration with the lack of transparency, but honestly, I can't put my finger on which part I could argue is in violation of the user agreement. It really feels like we've signed over so many rights and have granted TWDC free reign to do whatever they want with the property. As Wil pointed out, BWV has changed its POS 40 times since 1996. That averages out to a change every 7 months. All done legally.

Yup

I'm still waiting to hear from them about my email from last week, but I'm no longer sure what to say to them if they did get in touch with me now that they've shot down every point Zavandor has made and insist they have data, that they won't show us, to support their decision. Can someone summarize for those of us who will be talking to them, what exactly we are disputing with Disney about at this point? I need talking points.

My question in one sentence: How does raising the lock-out premium for both studios and 1-bedrooms benefit the members more than it benefits Disney. The only thing it CLEARLY does is increase breakage which goes into Disney's pockets.

It feels like it's been a bit of a moving target. And every time it changes, it seems there is more reason to believe DVCMC/DVD really can do whatever the hell they want. So we can ***** and moan that it's unfair, or that it sucks, but it's basically the way it's going to be.

And there it is, the fourth stage of grief: Depression.

I've hit acceptance. The GOOD news, in the end, there is a pretty firm limit to how far they can manipulate the points at MOST resorts, and even the ones with one dedicated studios/1-beds they can only push things so far before they break. Hard acceptance when our vacations just got shorter.
 

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