Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Madame]

IMO, the purpose of reallocating the needed points is to even out demand for all the different sizes. Some may consider that a "push", others a "pull". Its simply to level supply and demand.

I’m being a bit disingenuous, but where does this end? With the difference between studios, 1bds & 2bds being negligeable?

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

 

[OKW Lover]

You also in an earlier post mentioned th length of stay clause.

I believe you are thinking of a different post. I don't recall bringing up that issue.

 

[skier_pete]

I believe you are thinking of a different post. I don't recall bringing up that issue.

Ok. Maybe it was someone else. So many conversations going on.

I’m being a bit disingenuous, but where does this end? With the difference between studios, 1bds & 2bds being negligeable?

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

That is crazy. But that also does limit it. They can't make 1-beds more than 2-beds, and they can't make studios more than 1-beds - and most resorts have dedicated studios and 1-beds which force them to balance points. However, how far they can push it is anyone's guess.

 

[Madame]

However, how far they can push it is anyone's guess.

I believe the answer to this is, however far we allow ourselves to be pushed. Most owners are the frog in the pot getting slowly boiled to death without even realizing the temperature has been changed. I am not going to get boiled.

 

[Dean]

I'm not arguing against the "lock off premiums existence. I'm arguing against increasing it being in "the best interest of the members" This statement has been quote many times in this and other threads. I feel that DVC good make a pretty good argument for increasing studio point costs if in the process it lowered one-bedroom costs. It doesn't take rocket science to show the data that studios book much, much faster than one bedrooms across almost every DVC resort. And resorts with 2-bedroom lock offs see THOSE disappear quickly because of the popularity of studios. So the argument that raising studios point requirements and lowering 1-beds would be easy to make.

But DVC went and raised both studios and 1-bedrooms across the board, in almost every season. And in some (but very few) cases they lowered the 2-bedroom rate to do it. But only as they needed to keep the reallocation legal. Many cases they raised both without lowering 2-beds in equal proportion, because they could use increased lock-off premiums to do so. In the process, they took 1-bedrooms units - that were already overpriced and therefore the last to book - and made them worse. This is punitive to ANY member that wants to book a trip at later notice, and is forced into a one bedroom because that is all the is left. This change will not slow people booking studios, because by making 1-beds more expensive, it won't be driving current studio users to book them.

I just don't get how they can argue this reallocation benefits the members. It benefits a small portion of members, but hurts most members and strongly benefits Disney. That's the part of the contract I see them breaking, but it feels very difficult to prove.

That I understand but as I noted, there are possible explanations where it is plausible. And there is more at issue than simply the reservation demand including dues costs which as many have noted, went up a ton as well.

IMO, the purpose of reallocating the needed points is to even out demand for all the different sizes. Some may consider that a "push", others a "pull". Its simply to level supply and demand.

But that's part of the issue, they can proactively adjust the points to even out demand, not just based on historical demand of that villa (or component thereof) but also to shape usage going forward which is why I said it could be to push members to larger units and possible, a prelude to other changes. At some point we'll likely have a swing back where weekend are more than they are not unless we do get a LOS instituted that controls that issue differently. Yes, I'm predicting.

There's a principle in owning rental real estate that some use, it says you increase rent every year even if the other parameters don't support it. If you don't increase rent for a few years then you do, people often get very upset. If they knew it was coming, not so much even if they came out ahead the other way. DVC learned this with the large gap between the first and second reallocation which they should have done around 2001/2 rather than waiting.

I’m being a bit disingenuous, but where does this end? With the difference between studios, 1bds & 2bds being negligeable?

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

The end point is the Maximum reallocation chart for those resorts that have dedicated smaller units, I'm not sure there is one technically for those that don't have smaller dedicated units but from a practical standpoint it's likely about 60% of the 2 BR cost for a studio and 80% for a 1 BR.

 

[Madame]

The end point is the Maximum reallocation chart for those resorts that have dedicated smaller units, I'm not sure there is one technically for those that don't have smaller dedicated units but from a practical standpoint it's likely about 60% of the 2 BR cost for a studio and 80% for a 1 BR.

So this is applicable for my BCV contract. It’s SSR that’s the unknown for me.

There's a principle in owning rental real estate that some use, it says you increase rent every year even if the other parameters don't support it. If you don't increase rent for a few years then you do, people often get very upset

Oh yes. The frog in the pot.

 

[Dean]

So this is applicable for my BCV contract. It’s SSR that’s the unknown for me.



Oh yes. The frog in the pot.

I think it's applicable to all resorts depending on their specifics. SSR doesn't have dedicated smaller units but at least for OKW (which also doesn't have smaller decimated units) there is wording the gives a maximum for each unit size but I don't have the POS for either of those resorts specifically only 2 versions of the multiple site POS along with OKW & BWV. I do have a newer multi side and AKV somewhere but it's not handy, I'd have to dig for it. But remember this can change and I believe much of this in the POS could change unilaterally.

 

[Madame]

I think it's applicable to all resorts depending on their specifics. SSR doesn't have dedicated smaller units but at least for OKW (which also doesn't have smaller decimated units) there is wording the gives a maximum for each unit size but I don't have the POS for either of those resorts specifically only 2 versions of the multiple site POS along with OKW & BWV. I do have a newer multi side and AKV somewhere but it's not handy, I'd have to dig for it. But remember this can change and I believe much of this in the POS could change unilaterally.

The precariousness of this makes me think I should have bought a fixed week direct somewhere, or put my money into a more traditional timeshare or better yet CRO. Hindsight really is 20/20. I researched over a year, but not enough apparently. Hard lesson to learn.

 

[RRB]

So the studios and 1 BR units make up a vast majority of the DVC inventory. What will raising the point cost on this many rooms really do? The members most affected by this re-allocation are the small and medium contract holders who will either stay less days per vacation or vacation less often. Folks looking for a studio won't be booking a 2 BR because their point cost came down a little. Either DVC didn't build enough studio rooms or they over sold points to the resorts. I think that this "point balancing" is a theoretical solution, not a real solution.

 

[Dean]

The precariousness of this makes me think I should have bought a fixed week direct somewhere, or put my money into a more traditional timeshare or better yet CRO. Hindsight really is 20/20. I researched over a year, but no enough apparently. Hard lesson to learn.

I've long said that if one were going to buy at a resort with a fixed week option for points around what a fixed week should have been, they should buy a fixed week even if they didn't think they'd use it. There are compromises in that you give up the option to do smaller chunks such as my AKV at 4*25 for 100 total and might give up some of the incentives. One has to look at the specifics.

So the studios and 1 BR units make up a vast majority of the DVC inventory. What will raising the point cost on this many rooms really do? The members most affected by this re-allocation are the small and medium contract holders who will either stay less days per vacation or vacation less often. Folks looking for a studio won't be booking a 2 BR because their point cost came down a little. Either DVC didn't build enough studio rooms or they over sold points to the resorts. I think that this "point balancing" is a theoretical solution, not a real solution.

They'll adjust, sell or buy more points and we'll see all of those options in play over the next few years. It's relevant to them but not to the decision itself.

 

[GrumpyInPhilly]

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts![/QUOTE]

And weekdays @ SSR in non-premier seasons it will take LESS points to book a 2BR std. vs a 1BR preferred!

 

[jo_de_vil]

Thank you for going to all the effort in your thread, I have never understood the lock off situation and now with the increase at the BWV in studios and 1 beds. We bought our points with wriggle room of 18 points for 2 weeks but we will now be short by 10 every year, yes we can get the one time use points, but only at 7 month and the smallest contract is more than we require. It was explained to us about point reallocation but not in the way they have done it. It would be nice for some one to explain why they are doing it as increasing 1 beds does not seem to fit with supply and demand!

 

[Madame]

And weekdays @ SSR in non-premier seasons it will take LESS points to book a 2BR std. vs a 1BR preferred!

Yep. I don’t even know what to say about the level of ridiculous and idiocy that is the SSR 2020 chart. Class of its own.

 

[Spridell]

To be honest, reallocations don't bother me at all. In fact I've thought for a long time they should do the studios and Oct to Dec.

What bothers me is the 1 bed as it seems to make no sense and also this suggestion points can be manufactured out of thin air via lockoff premium.

What really bothers me is DVC kept this from the members at the meeting.

Thus I'd really like an explanation to demonstrate with data the thinking behind this and satisfy me it's not just to make DVD more money.

Then I can consider and revaluate.

Disney probably knew there would be blowback if it was mentioned at the meeting and that is why it was NOT mentioned.

 

[zavandor]

My theory about point reallocations is just that, a theory.

Yours is more than a theory, we have empiric evidence that it is exactly the rule that DVC followed in all their reallocations.
The point of this thread is to find in the POS where this is stated. If the POS allows this, then this thread can be closed.

I've been reading through the 2 versions of the multi site POS that I have access to right now

Pls pardon my ignorance, what is a Multi Site POS and what is its relationship the resort POS? If the multi site POS and the resort POS are in contradiction, then who "wins"? If the multi site POS uses generic terms on a rule, then the resort POS introduces more restrictive rules, who "wins"?

III.3.a.(2) Vacation Points - Lays out that the points are symbolic of the underlying ownership.

​

III.3.a(2).a Home Resort Vacation Points - A certain number of Home Resort Vacation Points have been or will be established by DVCMC in it's sole, absolute and unfettered discretion for the use of each Vacation Home in each Club Member's Home Resort during each Use Day based upon the demand balancing standard set forth above. The number of home resort Vacation points that a Club Member has will remain fixed and will always be symbolic of the Club Members Ownership Interest. And goes on to say they can change any Vacation Home points with the 20% per year limit and references the maximum reallocation Chart.
​

******* also has a reasonable summary of Previous Points reallocations.​

I would be very interested in reading the wording of those parts in bold. I only have the POS for SSR and an older version of that, would you be able to post the full document?


Can someone help me understand the difference between Home Resort Vacation points and Vacation points?
From the POS:
Vacation Point means the symbolic unit of measuring the respective right of an owner of a Ownership Interest to enjoy the benefits of the Ownership Interest within the Club
Home Resort Vacation Point means Vacation Points symbolizing an Ownership Interest at a Home Resort and which Vacation Points may be utilized to reserve accommodations at that Resort where that Ownership Interest is held.

If I understand it correctly: I own a 215 Vacation Points contract at SSR and every year I get 215 Home Resort Vacation Points to book accommodation at DVC resorts. Am I right?
The definition is a bit confusing as HRVP are defined as VP.

​

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I’m being a bit disingenuous, but where does this end? With the difference between studios, 1bds & 2bds being negligeable?

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

That's certainly been true between different resorts but I don't think within a resort that's ever been the case. Wow. So, the 1BR's will sit and book last and now there's a benefit for booking early vs booking last. It'll cost you compared to what others are getting - it it'll cost you a whole extra bedroom and it looks like extra points in Dream and Magic seasons.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

That is crazy. But that also does limit it. They can't make 1-beds more than 2-beds, and they can't make studios more than 1-beds - and most resorts have dedicated studios and 1-beds which force them to balance points. However, how far they can push it is anyone's guess.

They are making 1BR's more than 2BR's. It's a different "view" but there it is.

And that makes the premium on the lock-offs there quite amazing. The premium is now the entire studio side - or maybe even a little more.

 

[Dean]

Disney probably knew there would be blowback if it was mentioned at the meeting and that is why it was NOT mentioned.

Likely and c/w their previous approach. Personally I'm convinced they'd come out better in the long run if they were just up front and matter of fact just like I think they'd be better off long term if they were more consistent and less free with inappropriate giveaways.

Yours is more than a theory, we have empiric evidence that it is exactly the rule that DVC followed in all their reallocations.
The point of this thread is to find in the POS where this is stated. If the POS allows this, then this thread can be closed.



Pls pardon my ignorance, what is a Multi Site POS and what is its relationship the resort POS? If the multi site POS and the resort POS are in contradiction, then who "wins"? If the multi site POS uses generic terms on a rule, then the resort POS introduces more restrictive rules, who "wins"?

​

I would be very interested in reading the wording of those parts in bold. I only have the POS for SSR and an older version of that, would you be able to post the full document?


Can someone help me understand the difference between Home Resort Vacation points and Vacation points?
From the POS:
Vacation Point means the symbolic unit of measuring the respective right of an owner of a Ownership Interest to enjoy the benefits of the Ownership Interest within the Club
Home Resort Vacation Point means Vacation Points symbolizing an Ownership Interest at a Home Resort and which Vacation Points may be utilized to reserve accommodations at that Resort where that Ownership Interest is held.

If I understand it correctly: I own a 215 Vacation Points contract at SSR and every year I get 215 Home Resort Vacation Points to book accommodation at DVC resorts. Am I right?
The definition is a bit confusing as HRVP are defined as VP.

​

Each resort has a POS and there is a POS for the "club" that governs items common to the resorts. Back when it was just OKW then the Disney Vacation Club, there was only one POS but at some point ? after VB/HH/BWV they split the info common to the resorts off into it's own document I'm sure as to not reinvent the wheel each time. It deals with reallocations, reservations, special seasons preferences and the like.

Too much trouble to retype the entire thing, it's quite a long section of several paragraphs. Apparently the site I listed is banned from DIS, I didn't know when I posted the info but it's not the same information though it is quite good for a historical perspectives. When you got the POS for SSR you should have gotten a thicker one and a thinner one, the thinner one is the one you need but didn't you ask for updated copies anyway? What you own is X % of a unit, the points are only symbolic of that ownership.

For what you posted from definitions, the VP is simply a point, basically a monetary unit used to reserve in the system generically speaking. HRVP is a subset of the VP tied to a specific resort.

 

[the_grinch]

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

And weekdays @ SSR in non-premier seasons it will take LESS points to book a 2BR std. vs a 1BR preferred![/QUOTE]

it is the same thing (within 1 point) at
Animal Kingdom Villas – Kidani

 

[Dean]

Already at SSR I can get a 1 bd preferred that sleeps 4 or a 2bd standard that sleeps 8 at the EXACT same point cost in adventure season. That’s nuts!

And weekdays @ SSR in non-premier seasons it will take LESS points to book a 2BR std. vs a 1BR preferred![/QUOTE]
For different views I'm not sure it's relevant from a system standpoint though again, it might be for personal decision making.