Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[Patience]

Our oldest child was a competitive gymnast in an elite training program. When she was in the younger grades and in low gymnastic levels, she missed an occasional Friday for competitions. As she became older, the traveling increased as her level increased. Eventually we homeschooled her for three years and she attended, on a part-time basis, a private school that caters to homeschoolers where she took just math and science. When we stopped homeschooling, we enrolled her in a charter school that was more liberal about absences than the local public school district, primarily because the charter school had (and has) 10 extra educational days built into the state-mandated number of required school days. So students attend 190 instructional days instead of 180. Today our daughter is a college senior who will graduate in May. We also have a third grader so we have many more years of schooling ahead of us.

I say all this to illustrate several things I have learned about education and taking kids out of school. First, if you eliminate lunch, recess, homeroom, time between classes, PE, and other "specials" like art and music, a student can complete his or her educational program in 3 to 4 hours per day. Teachers sometimes don't like to admit that the school day can be shortened in such a way but it can and a student can do just fine in the core subjects with this amount of instructional time per day. Second, it is hard for a student to miss class in a traditional school and make it up, maybe not so much in the lower grades but especially in the higher grades. A student, whether homeschooled or in traditional school, needs a teacher. If a parent is not the child's teacher everyday, the student is going to miss a lot trying to make up work from absences. Parents sometimes don't like to admit that but it's true and it is why we ended up homeschooling during the intensive years of gymnastics competitions. It was easier and more efficient than struggling to make up missed work. Third, every parent in the US has the right to decide for themselves what works best for his or her child and their family. If the local public schools and their rules don't work for you, find another option. There are tons out there. I can't speak to whether these same options are available in the UK.

Our youngest is in third grade this year at the same charter school our oldest daughter attended. To me, third grade is the cut off for taking her out of school for vacations, at least a full week vacation.

 

[gwynne]

Our oldest child was a competitive gymnast in an elite training program. When she was in the younger grades and in low gymnastic levels, she missed an occasional Friday for competitions. As she became older, the traveling increased as her level increased. Eventually we homeschooled her for three years and she attended, on a part-time basis, a private school that caters to homeschoolers where she took just math and science. When we stopped homeschooling, we enrolled her in a charter school that was more liberal about absences than the local public school district, primarily because the charter school had (and has) 10 extra educational days built into the state-mandated number of required school days. So students attend 190 instructional days instead of 180. Today our daughter is a college senior who will graduate in May. We also have a third grader so we have many more years of schooling ahead of us.

I say all this to illustrate several things I have learned about education and taking kids out of school. First, if you eliminate lunch, recess, homeroom, time between classes, PE, and other "specials" like art and music, a student can complete his or her educational program in 3 to 4 hours per day. Teachers sometimes don't like to admit that the school day can be shortened in such a way but it can and a student can do just fine in the core subjects with this amount of instructional time per day. Second, it is hard for a student to miss class in a traditional school and make it up, maybe not so much in the lower grades but especially in the higher grades. A student, whether homeschooled or in traditional school, needs a teacher. If a parent is not the child's teacher everyday, the student is going to miss a lot trying to make up work from absences. Parents sometimes don't like to admit that but it's true and it is why we ended up homeschooling during the intensive years of gymnastics competitions. It was easier and more efficient than struggling to make up missed work. Third, every parent in the US has the right to decide for themselves what works best for his or her child and their family. If the local public schools and their rules don't work for you, find another option. There are tons out there. I can't speak to whether these same options are available in the UK.

Our youngest is in third grade this year at the same charter school our oldest daughter attended. To me, third grade is the cut off for taking her out of school for vacations, at least a full week vacation.

Assuming the parent has both the ability and financial means to home school, it's always an option. Your DD's special was gymnastics. My DD's special was music and dance. I considered both to be part of her educational program in high school. Neither have much to do with her profession as an adult, but they were important to her during the college years and continuing to now.
As long as a parent is aware of the need for some balance in a teenagers life, there can be a lot of variation in what works.

I totally agree with you about 3rd grade being the cut off for being out of school for a week. I'm not saying others have to do the same, it was just my experience that after about that grade it becomes complicated.

 

[sam_gordon]

. First, if you eliminate lunch, recess, homeroom, time between classes, PE, and other "specials" like art and music, a student can complete his or her educational program in 3 to 4 hours per day.

Is that a good idea though (eliminating all but the "core" classes)? Don't PE, art, music, and recess all benefit the kids in different ways? If not, why is there such an outcry when these programs get cut back (if not eliminated)?

A question for anyone... is there ANY limit that you'd be ok with? In other words, if you think it should be ok (fully excused) for a student to miss a week of school, what about two weeks? Three? A month?

 

[Rhombus]

Here's what I don't understand if our children are truly being educated.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest GPAs ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest SAT and ACT scores ever.
College Freshman are entering college with the highest rate ever having to take remedial Math and English classes because they aren't prepared.

Something is wrong there.

Grade inflation in many schools. Anything less than an A is considered a failure. Can't damage Little Susie's self-esteem by giving her the C she would have earned 30 years ago.

Expensive SAT prep courses either during or after school hours.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Our oldest child was a competitive gymnast in an elite training program. When she was in the younger grades and in low gymnastic levels, she missed an occasional Friday for competitions. As she became older, the traveling increased as her level increased. Eventually we homeschooled her for three years and she attended, on a part-time basis, a private school that caters to homeschoolers where she took just math and science. When we stopped homeschooling, we enrolled her in a charter school that was more liberal about absences than the local public school district, primarily because the charter school had (and has) 10 extra educational days built into the state-mandated number of required school days. So students attend 190 instructional days instead of 180. Today our daughter is a college senior who will graduate in May. We also have a third grader so we have many more years of schooling ahead of us.

I say all this to illustrate several things I have learned about education and taking kids out of school. First, if you eliminate lunch, recess, homeroom, time between classes, PE, and other "specials" like art and music, a student can complete his or her educational program in 3 to 4 hours per day. Teachers sometimes don't like to admit that the school day can be shortened in such a way but it can and a student can do just fine in the core subjects with this amount of instructional time per day. Second, it is hard for a student to miss class in a traditional school and make it up, maybe not so much in the lower grades but especially in the higher grades. A student, whether homeschooled or in traditional school, needs a teacher. If a parent is not the child's teacher everyday, the student is going to miss a lot trying to make up work from absences. Parents sometimes don't like to admit that but it's true and it is why we ended up homeschooling during the intensive years of gymnastics competitions. It was easier and more efficient than struggling to make up missed work. Third, every parent in the US has the right to decide for themselves what works best for his or her child and their family. If the local public schools and their rules don't work for you, find another option. There are tons out there. I can't speak to whether these same options are available in the UK.

Our youngest is in third grade this year at the same charter school our oldest daughter attended. To me, third grade is the cut off for taking her out of school for vacations, at least a full week vacation.

Are you really suggesting things like Art, Music, and PE are expendable?


Honestly, in the long run, becoming accostomed to the idea of regular exercise will probably benefit you 1,000 times more than learning to diagram a sentence.

 

[Patience]

Is that a good idea though (eliminating all but the "core" classes)? Don't PE, art, music, and recess all benefit the kids in different ways? If not, why is there such an outcry when these programs get cut back (if not eliminated)?

A question for anyone... is there ANY limit that you'd be ok with? In other words, if you think it should be ok (fully excused) for a student to miss a week of school, what about two weeks? Three? A month?

Are you really suggesting things like Art, Music, and PE are expendable?


Honestly, in the long run, becoming accostomed to the idea of regular exercise will probably benefit you 1,000 times more than learning to diagram a sentence.

Of course I'm not saying that these specials are not good for the kids. I was responding to the people in this thread who were saying that kids cannot be educated in less than a full day in school. Specials like art and PE generally don't have work to make up when a child returns from a vacation so it isn't fair to say that students who miss school can't make up "core" work in fewer hours than they spend in a classroom.
By the way, most homeschoolers I know have a "special" or two in which they participate. My daughter's special during the homeschool/gymnastic years was PE, I suppose, because she spent several hours a day exercising. I guess it could also count as music since her floor routines were choregraphed to music and included dance elements.

 

[pryncess527]

Liberty is
the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.
"compulsory retirement would interfere with individual liberty"
synonyms: independence, freedom, autonomy, sovereignty, self-government, self-rule, self-determination etc
(There is more this is a piece quoted from the definition of liberty on the Internet)
Being fined for taking a vacation is not being free to make your own choice about when to vacation therefore it is taking away your liberty.

You are free to make different schooling decisions for your child though. By enrolling them in a school that imposes such fines, you consent to participate in that system. But you are not legally compelled to -- you always have private school, or home schooling as an option. Or moving to a place with more acceptable public schools. To suggest that simply because you do not like the rules that accompany one of your choices does not mean your basic liberties have been infringed upon.

For the same reasons we see here. Parents would start screaming about how little sally and Sam are some how going to not be " balanced" and how precious family time would be lost if kids went to school year round.

We've tried many Times in SJ and the number one resistors? parents who wouldn't be able to go to the Jersey shore or Disney. Number 2, teachers Unions

We have 2 in Philly, one is a private school, one is a charter school. kids go for 7 weeks then get a 10 day break ( i think, i can't remember) and then have the normal holidays

When Atlanta tried year-round schools, it was Six Flags, White Water, and the hotel industry that spent a small fortune fighting it. Large private summer camps screamed that their businesses would be ruined. I think there are quite a few powerful forces against year-round schools.

Teachers I speak with are generally in favor. I've yet to find one solid education-based argument against it.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Of course I'm not saying that these specials are not good for the kids. I was responding to the people in this thread who were saying that kids cannot be educated in less than a full day in school. Specials like art and PE generally don't have work to make up when a child returns from a vacation so it isn't fair to say that students who miss school can't make up "core" work in fewer hours than they spend in a classroom.
By the way, most homeschoolers I know have a "special" or two in which they participate. My daughter's special during the homeschool/gymnastic years was PE, I suppose, because she spent several hours a day exercising. I guess it could also count as music since her floor routines were choregraphed to music and included dance elements.

Gotcha, thanks for straightening me out

 

[tcufrog]

When Atlanta tried year-round schools, it was Six Flags, White Water, and the hotel industry that spent a small fortune fighting it. Large private summer camps screamed that their businesses would be ruined. I think there are quite a few powerful forces against year-round schools.

Teachers I speak with are generally in favor. I've yet to find one solid education-based argument against it.

My sister was a teacher in one of those districts. She and her fellow teachers were in favor of the year round schedule. The parents hated it and elected a school board with the mandate to eliminate it. The parents had complained that they wouldn't be able to find child care during the extra holidays but the school district had made sure affordable child care was available during the holidays and that the parents wouldn't be out of pocket more than they had in the past. The parents elected a new school board with the mandate to get rid of the year round calendar despite the cost of changing the calendar again. Well, after a year of year round schooling the parents discovered they loved it. Their kids didn't get bored and burned out during the shortened summer break and they could take vacations during the off seasons when it was less crowded and cheaper. Test scores improved. Unfortunately the school board still got rid of the new calendar because that's what they were elected to do.

 

[Hrhpd]

I am not thinking the schools are the problem here.

It sounds like many of you need to work to change the rules of your employers. The seniority thing where only a few get all the choice weeks is crazy.

How come it is ok here and blindly followed for employers to have rules about taking vacations during work time, but schools are evil for having rules about taking vacations during school time?

 

[bethy]

Is that a good idea though (eliminating all but the "core" classes)? Don't PE, art, music, and recess all benefit the kids in different ways? If not, why is there such an outcry when these programs get cut back (if not eliminated)?

A question for anyone... is there ANY limit that you'd be ok with? In other words, if you think it should be ok (fully excused) for a student to miss a week of school, what about two weeks? Three? A month?

Regarding the extras, yes I feel those things are important for a young person's development. However, that type of enrichment can be accomplished in many different ways, programs and/or venues. It doesn't have to be done through a public school. The obvious example here is that this gymnast probably didn't need a PE class. Note, I do like that these things are available in public school - just to ensure that most kids get at least some of each of these enrichments. I'd argue the same for core academic subjects - school is the most convenient way to get those for most kids. And it's the most efficient way to ensure that large numbers of kids get that instruction. But there are MANY other ways to learn these things.

For your second question I have no cut off - there are too many variables at hand - every child and situation is different. That's why it's the parent's call.

For the record I have: one child who is homeschooled, one child who is public schooled and one child in private school.

 

[morgan98]

I don't have children, so I am probably not the best person to comment on this thread. However, I do have an opinion.

Everyone understands and or accepts that employers have rules about when vacation is to be taken and no one seems to be saying just pull your spouse out of work without permission to take a vacation. My parents (I am 45 for reference) made me feel like school was my "job" in a certain sense. Therefore, unless it was a super-unusual circumstance, I was to be in school when it was in session.

I get that it may be hard to schedule a vacation or that it may be more expensive if you have to travel during certain times of the year.

Also, of course children belong to the parents, and not to the schools. However, I imagine it would be very disruptive to everyone in the class if every student was being pulled from school for a week here or a week there to take vacations. Seems to me that would impact the quality of education received.

ETA: Making it illegal, however, is probably taking it a little too far.

 

[tasha99]

I totally reject the idea that it is the government's business if my kid misses a few days or not for family time. I suppose if I lived in an area with such draconian rules as fines for vacation, I'd pull my kid out and find a private school that was more cooperative. Actually, my youngest son went to Catholic elementary school. I took him for a week at WDW in kindergarten during the school year because that was when I had vacation, and the school was fine with it. My friend took her son out for 6 weeks at the the end of the year in 5th grade for an RV trip across America. Of course, the reason the school was okay with these vacations was because they got paid either way--the strict "must be here at all times" rule has more to do with payment than education. I don't have a problem with the schools saying "no credit for this time off," but I do think legal fines or calling a truancy officer is wayyy over reaching.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I am not thinking the schools are the problem here.

It sounds like many of you need to work to change the rules of your employers. The seniority thing where only a few get all the choice weeks is crazy.

How come it is ok here and blindly followed for employers to have rules about taking vacations during work time, but schools are evil for having rules about taking vacations during school time?

It's not just bad seniority rules (though that is an issue for some), but also seasonal work that causes a problem. If you're a concrete finished in STL, you're working 60 hours a week all Summer, but laid off Dec-Feb. Assuming you even CAN get off in the busy months, you're talking a major financial hit doing it that way.

I do think there are people who unnecessarily pull their kids for vacation. But, there are folks like this as well.

 

[Bec3b1g]

In response to the extras, I think they are as vital as the core requirements. My kids attended elementary and middle school in the best school district in wa state. The art and music programs were fantastic. And they attended at a time when budgets and staff were being cut, but I can tell you that the island community where we lived protected and well funded those programs. There would have been a community uproar if an art teacher was riffed. My kids are athletes and even they LOVED music and art class.

After we moved, our new district had terrible art and music programs. Art on a cart sort of thing. It is really unfortunate that these programs are seen as non essentials and aren't well funded. All kids can benefit from music and art.

 

[bethy]

In response to the extras, I think they are as vital as the core requirements. My kids attended elementary and middle school in the best school district in wa state. The art and music programs were fantastic. And they attended at a time when budgets and staff were being cut, but I can tell you that the island community where we lived protected and well funded those programs. There would have been a community uproar if an art teacher was riffed. My kids are athletes and even they LOVED music and art class.

After we moved, our new district had terrible art and music programs. Art on a cart sort of thing. It is really unfortunate that these programs are seen as non essentials and aren't well funded. All kids can benefit from music and art.

I'm sorry I know exactly which school district and community that is and I won't name it out loud here but that is far and away the wealthiest community in the entire Pacific Northwest - the wealthiest north of the Bay area. Well, *maybe* they are tied with Medina, not sure.

That community does what it wants, when it wants, however it wants with no push back from anyone - even in their public schools. Their schools foundation has millions in trust to fund these high quality programs you speak of. Also, the number of children educated there is relatively small for the community - there are not proportionally tons of young families.

I don't fault them at all for being in the position they are in. But they are in no way a realistic example of what could or should be happening in most of America's schools with regards to academics, let along arts and extra curriculars. It would be nice, though - yes!

 

[Bec3b1g]

I'm sorry I know exactly which school district and community that is and I won't name it out loud here but that is far and away the wealthiest community in the entire Pacific Northwest - the wealthiest north of the Bay area. Well, *maybe* they are tied with Medina, not sure.

That community does what it wants, when it wants, however it wants with no push back from anyone - even in their public schools. Their schools foundation has millions in trust to fund these high quality programs you speak of. Also, the number of children educated there is relatively small for the community - there are not proportionally tons of young families.

I don't fault them at all for being in the position they are in. But they are in no way a realistic example of what could or should be happening in most of America's schools with regards to academics, let along arts and extra curriculars. It would be nice, though - yes!

I don't disagree with you, but my experience is every bit as valid as everyone else's . Not everyone on the DIS comes from a district where 1 week of class can be made up in 2 hours.

 

[bsblady01]

Our oldest child was a competitive gymnast in an elite training program. When she was in the younger grades and in low gymnastic levels, she missed an occasional Friday for competitions. As she became older, the traveling increased as her level increased. Eventually we homeschooled her for three years and she attended, on a part-time basis, a private school that caters to homeschoolers where she took just math and science. When we stopped homeschooling, we enrolled her in a charter school that was more liberal about absences than the local public school district, primarily because the charter school had (and has) 10 extra educational days built into the state-mandated number of required school days. So students attend 190 instructional days instead of 180. Today our daughter is a college senior who will graduate in May. We also have a third grader so we have many more years of schooling ahead of us.

I say all this to illustrate several things I have learned about education and taking kids out of school. First, if you eliminate lunch, recess, homeroom, time between classes, PE, and other "specials" like art and music, a student can complete his or her educational program in 3 to 4 hours per day. Teachers sometimes don't like to admit that the school day can be shortened in such a way but it can and a student can do just fine in the core subjects with this amount of instructional time per day. Second, it is hard for a student to miss class in a traditional school and make it up, maybe not so much in the lower grades but especially in the higher grades. A student, whether homeschooled or in traditional school, needs a teacher. If a parent is not the child's teacher everyday, the student is going to miss a lot trying to make up work from absences. Parents sometimes don't like to admit that but it's true and it is why we ended up homeschooling during the intensive years of gymnastics competitions. It was easier and more efficient than struggling to make up missed work. Third, every parent in the US has the right to decide for themselves what works best for his or her child and their family. If the local public schools and their rules don't work for you, find another option. There are tons out there. I can't speak to whether these same options are available in the UK.

Our youngest is in third grade this year at the same charter school our oldest daughter attended. To me, third grade is the cut off for taking her out of school for vacations, at least a full week vacation.

kids need art and music. and no kids need the full six hours in school since some kids don't learn as fast as others

 

[TLSnell1981]

I'm

I am not thinking the schools are the problem here.

It sounds like many of you need to work to change the rules of your employers. The seniority thing where only a few get all the choice weeks is crazy.

How come it is ok here and blindly followed for employers to have rules about taking vacations during work time, but schools are evil for having rules about taking vacations during school time?

Let's change the rules of practically every other industry because school schedules still revolve around planting and harvesting crops?

 

[Planogirl]

I like the summer breaks. DS did too because we could travel and he could work and go to camps and do other things. Of course I'm speaking from an older student's perspective.

I don't understand the fuss. I can sympathize with those who have difficult employers but otherwise kids get so much time off that I really don't see why it's so hard to work with the schools.