Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?

[maltdizzy]

I live in Wisconsin. It's up to my grown children whether they want to return with my grandchildren. Every time I heard "Wishes" I had to turn away. For me, Disney was magical. Not anymore. There are just too many things associated with that night. I can't expect everyone to feel like I do. I know they don't. That's okay. Just want Disney to do more to protect the little children. Obviously, there are parents on here who think living dangerously is an expected way of life. Not me or my family.

I can understand you emotional harm, it was awfully close to home for you. I would be shaken as well to have been in proximity to the attack.

As to everything, we try and view risk proportionately. The risk of dying from slipping in a puddle of water (MK, 2009) is higher than the risk of an alligator attack. The risk of drowning (AoA, 2013, FWC 1982, 1987, 1989; MK, 1977) are much higher than an alligator attack. Statistically, 104 guests of today's Magic Kingdom guests will die of (mostly preventable) heart disease someday (that's 40,000 MK guests every year). People seems to have this false sense of control in the other cases, yet the thought of an alligator attack or shark attack or something triggers deep-seated primal fears that kick it. I have to wonder how many of the people who are upset and angry and fearful of the alligator attack at WDW and talk about their child's safety have even bothered with CPR and/or lifeguard certification? Something that has realistic odds of saving the life of their child (or someone else's child).

BTW, I believe Disney fails/failed to provide adequate information for the environmental dangers of the area (not that many would have heeded it**). I certainly do not blame the parents....honestly, I wouldn't have blamed them even if Disney was more educational about the dangers (this is a in the same risk factor as any freak accident).

 

[boltjames]

Okay, take the alligator off the equation.

No alligator.

The very same people blaming disney for this freak accident would call these parents names.
or it might not even have made past 3 pages on this forum.

You're absolutely right. If the child drowned because his parents disregarded the sign, let him swim, and let him fall into deep water, that's on them.

But that's not what happened here. No 2 year old should die as a consequence of building sand castles along the water's edge. That's on Disney.

Your analogy would be more accurate if you said that the staff of the Grand Floridian floated a cotton candy machine 8 feet away from shore over deep water. Because to a 2 year old, that's exactly what they did.

 

[boltjames]

And this, in my opinion is the crux of this matter. There were people who, despite the reality staring them in the face, allowed themselves to pretend that Disney is not the real world. There is a difference between allowing yourself to leave your own world behind and to enter the World of Nostalgia and Pixie Dust, and allowing yourself to not only leave the "World" behind, but to allow yourself to fall into a fantasy land that does not exist except in your own imagination. We have all been witness to parents who abdicate all responsibility once they enter the Magic Gates. They retreat and allow their kids to wander alone, swim with only lifeguards watching, sit on benches while Mom and Dad go on attractions not suited to them. The travel the monorail like it was a magic carpet ride, and they stay in resort rooms alone while Mom and Dad have a leisurely dinner. We all know it. We all see it. I think that some people who do this are the ones who have had a reality check, and are overreacting to their own error in judgment. Life interfered with the magic last week, and no one can go back and undo that terrible accident. It is sad, but no one should have allowed themselves to fall into that bubble.

Again someone on a soap box riffing on all the horrible and disrespectful parents. That's not what happened here. The child was not in a bathing suit and snorkel swimming in the water. He was on his butt, on his knees, building sand castles, stood up to kick one over, splashed some water, gone in an instant because Disney invited him to do what 2 year olds do on movie night on the beach- play with the sand.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

Again someone on a soap box riffing on all the horrible and disrespectful parents. That's not what happened here. The child was not in a bathing suit and snorkel swimming in the water. He was on his butt, on his knees, building sand castles, stood up to kick one over, splashed some water, gone in an instant because Disney invited him to do what 2 year olds do on movie night on the beach- play with the sand.

I have not read this anywhere.

Please post a link showing that this is what happened.

 

[boltjames]

I didn't take Marine Ecology either and I am from Canada. Yet I still knew. Being from Nebraska or New York is no excuse. If you are ignorant of your surroundings, that's on you.

Before you went on Space Mountain for the first time, did you intuitively know that it was dangerous for people with epilepsy? You're not an epileptic, you didn't know, it was Disney that taught you this through its thorough signage.

Before they went on the Grand Floridian beach at 8:30PM for movie night, did the Graves family intuitively know that it was dangerous for small children because of stalking alligators? They're not from Florida, they didn't know, Disney didn't teach them this through their signage.

 

[Lynne M]

We're getting close to the edge again with this thread.

But, as I've said before, just because bait is offered, doesn't mean you have to take it. And I would respectfully offer the thought that hyperbole doesn't win debates.

 

[jodifla]

Again someone on a soap box riffing on all the horrible and disrespectful parents. That's not what happened here. The child was not in a bathing suit and snorkel swimming in the water. He was on his butt, on his knees, building sand castles, stood up to kick one over, splashed some water, gone in an instant because Disney invited him to do what 2 year olds do on movie night on the beach- play with the sand.

That story doesn't really add up. Where are you getting it from?

And I hate to break it to you, but it doesn't matter that you won't go back to Disney. Your anger is out of proportion and well off the mark.

 

[Jason2015]

I do not want to enter into this argument but I am curious where the information about sand castles comes from. I have read several times in this thread that the little boy was either building sand castles or kicking them down. I have probably read too many articles on this horrible accident and have not seen this level of detail. The first reports said the family was alone on the beach and I am not aware that they are talking. Once again, I am not arguing fault or whether this is true but would like to know the source of this information.

I believe that boltjames is the only one putting that idea forward (and has trolled it several times). I have only seen the same reports you have about the child being in the water (no one seems to know how far). But the fact doesn't fit the posters world view that the gator came up onto the beach, far our of the water, so bolt will fight to keep the sand castle view going even with no real facts.

 

[boltjames]

Why are everyone calling the gators monsters ? The one that grabbed the child did what he was created for , It heard splashing , thought it was a small animal (PREY) and took it! that doesn't make it a monster !!! It WAS a HORRIBLE ACCIDENT !!!!!!! I feel for the family ( and child), but accidents happen. That's why they're called accidents !!

If while responding to this post a key pops off of your keyboard, bounces off of your screen, lands in your mouth, blocks your throat, and you choke to death, that is a "horrible accident".

If a family from the nation's heartland doesn't know about an alligator threat at Walt Disney World on a beach that invites 2 year olds to play with sand, and the Disney company knows of the threat and they don't inform that family, that is a "criminal act".

 

[boltjames]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where there is a warning sign on everything
because the more you put specific signs up, the less people use their common sense

Imagine that inside a park there is a sign saying "Don't climb on rocks"

you'll always find someone who will climb and hurt themselves. We all know it will eventually happen no matter what.

But you will always find people who will argue that
- it was not technically a rock, it was more of a boulder
- I didn't technically climb on that rock, I climbed on the pebbles that were resting atop that rock
- I have seen the sign but it was 9 feet away on another set of rocks, how could I have known that it aslo applied to that rock

the parks have been careless and failed to warn me

let's push it further

guy climbs on rock despite the sign, and is scared by a bee, which eventually leads to that guy falling and hurting himself.

- the sign did not warn that the reason why it was forbidden to climb rock was that there could be bees scaring you off, I was not properly warned
(and along the lines of 'i knew about the dropoff but went in nonetheless') :
- I was aware that I could fall, but it's the bee I was not warned against that caused my fall, the park should have mentionned this on the sign

yes, that's endless

wouldn't it be so much more efficient to lessen risks, to invite people to use their common sense, and start thinking for themselves ?

Have anyone noticed that the more signs and instructions there is, the less people think for themselves ?

people seem to think that the signs say it all, and when they don't tragedy ensues.
but the cold hard and sad truth is that people don't even read signs ...

signs are not there for the public to see. They're there for companies not to get sued when someone acts carelessly

The sign for a theme attraction replete with safety devices, cast member checks, certification from state amusement commissions, and harnesses still offers 16 warnings on this sign for practically every conceivable risk both large and small.

The sign on the unguarded and unsafe phony beach at the edge of a known alligator habitat at feeding time said don't swim here, the water is pretty deep.

You spend all day at theme parks with detailed warnings of known threats big and small and you see a sign with only one major warning, you are assured there are no other risks besides those you already know.

 

[jodifla]

The attack occurred on the third night of vacation for the family of four from suburban Omaha. They relaxed on the white-sand beach that stretches along Disney’s luxe Grand Floridian Resort and Spa, one of the features the hotel uses to entice its guests, and they watched their young son wade ankle-deep into the lake known by vacationers as Seven Seas Lagoon.

A sign on the beach noted that swimming was prohibited in the lagoon.

The boy was just about a foot beyond the sand when, after 9 p.m., the alligator attacked.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ter-by-alligator-at-disney-resort-in-orlando/

 

[boltjames]

I guess I'm one of those seldom posters who only gets on here when something is bothering me. I think some of you must spend all your time on here putting other people's opinions down. Sad. All I want from Disney is common sense. That little three rope fence may deter people from wading, but I can't believe it would stop an alligator from coming onto the beach. Seriously, are we all going to let this happen again?? What about the canals in the campground? I camped there years ago and didn't think about gators in canals or while watching the Electrical Light Parade. There were plenty of kids playing on the beach every night. Just because an alligator hasn't come up onto the beach doesn't mean it won't happen. Should we wait until it does happen? Yes, I am full of fear. I've been on those very same beaches for 23 years. We even had our two year old granddaughter on the Poly beach Monday night. She didn't go in the water, but she was in the sand. Disney has to find a way to make it safer or I'm not going back. Period.

Finally a voice of reason.

Very well said.

 

[jodifla]

The sign for a theme attraction replete with safety devices, cast member checks, certification from state amusement commissions, and harnesses still offers 16 warnings on this sign for practically every conceivable risk both large and small.

The sign on the unguarded and unsafe phony beach at the edge of a known alligator habitat at feeding time said don't swim here, the water is pretty deep.

You spend all day at theme parks with detailed warnings of known threats big and small and you see a sign with only one major warning, you are assured there are no other risks besides those you already know.

That's because Disney made the ride, and they are responsible for its operation. It is not the same thing at all, and actually shows that DIsney goes above and beyond when it comes to safety.

 

[boltjames]

The attack occurred on the third night of vacation for the family of four from suburban Omaha. They relaxed on the white-sand beach that stretches along Disney’s luxe Grand Floridian Resort and Spa, one of the features the hotel uses to entice its guests, and they watched their young son wade ankle-deep into the lake known by vacationers as Seven Seas Lagoon.

A sign on the beach noted that swimming was prohibited in the lagoon.

The boy was just about a foot beyond the sand when, after 9 p.m., the alligator attacked.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ter-by-alligator-at-disney-resort-in-orlando/

What's your point? That ankle-deep water for a 2 year old, that's about 3", constitutes "swimming"? So the sign was enough?

Keep going. I like your thought process.

 

[jodifla]

Finally a voice of reason.

Very well said.

Funny!

 

[jodifla]

What's your point? That ankle-deep water for a 2 year old, that's about 3", constitutes "swimming"? So the sign was enough?

Keep going. I like your thought process.

He didn't kick over a sandcastle and splash the water. He waded a foot -- or two -- into the water. The parents were not at his side -- which would have likely prevented the attack. The boy could have charged forward at any moment, and fallen, and drowned. He could have been bitten by a snake.

Are you this outraged by the shootings in Orlando? Because that's a much bigger threat at WDW. Do you need a special sign for that?

 

[HarleenQ]

The sign for a theme attraction replete with safety devices, cast member checks, certification from state amusement commissions, and harnesses still offers 16 warnings on this sign for practically every conceivable risk both large and small.

The sign on the unguarded and unsafe phony beach at the edge of a known alligator habitat at feeding time said don't swim here, the water is pretty deep.

You spend all day at theme parks with detailed warnings of known threats big and small and you see a sign with only one major warning, you are assured there are no other risks besides those you already know.

You aren't really assured anything.

There's no signs warning of poisonus snakes, killer birds that attach anything that looks like food, spiders, zika, or the extreme possibility that a terrorist could pop up at any given time, etc.

There's some things that you just can't plan for, can't warn for... and even if you did would still occur. That woman that got hit with a random snake at HS not too long ago... no signs about that.

Frankly, I think your trolling your narrative of some massive man eating gator that swiped this kid off the edge of the path while he was building sandcastles, but whatever. Do your thing. But the bottom line is, your posts lack any kind of fact which completely invalidates them. And while I do thing a simple sign warning of gators and wildlife would have been helpful, I don't doubt that something like this would have happened eventually as it's the nature of people to never think things will happen to them.

 

[boltjames]

I've held off writing a comment about this until now. It is very very very sad what happened it was a tragic event for both the family and Disney. I feel very bad for those parents who will live with this for the rest of their lives.
Like people said he was walking and playing in the water not swimming. Yes there is a steep drop off where the little boy could of easily slipped he is 2 and went down under the water. Why are there gators in a man made lake. Im from the Midwest and didn't think anything of it.
Ok now Im from CANADA let me say this again IM FROM CANADA and I would not be in any lake in florida at night walking on waters edge or playing in the water knowing the fear of gators could be present. It is FLORIDA, GATORS are known to be very heavy in florida.
It is the same thing as me going to an island and there is a sign that says no SWIMMING im not going in the water. The don't need to tell me that there could possibly be a shark in the ocean. There are sharks in the ocean, there are gators in lakes, ponds, marshes, ditches and even swimming pools in florida.
It is very sad what happened I feel extremely bad for that family. It was a tragedy a mistake an accident.

It's great that at some point in your Canadian life you were exposed to a teacher, documentary, news story, great-aunt, or other form of information that clued you in to the alligator threat at Walt Disney World.

There are millions of us who are not-native to Florida and didn't get the memo and are shocked by last week's events beyond what happened to the poor child.

Here, answer this: You said you're from Canada and you would not be near any lake at night at water's edge over the fear of alligators being present. Disney knew what you know- did they do enough? Should they have even hosted a family movie night in that location? After years, no, decades of watching 2 year olds frollick by the shoreline in the darkness did any cast member call this out to management and voice concern?

Why do you hold unaware northern parents accountable for what they didn't know as opposed to holding fully aware Floridian hotel operators accountable for what they did know?

 

[Dave006]

Since you feel the need to bring out statistics, look at the link below for unprovoked alligator attacks in Florida

http://myfwc.com/media/310203/Alligator-GatorBites.pdf

So this looks very scary on the surface but a total of 383 in 68 year's is however an extremely low incident rate. For example here are some averages that might put this number in prospective:

Average Number of Deaths per Year in the U.S

Bee/Wasp 53
Dogs 31
Spider 6.5
Rattlesnake 5.5
Mountain lion 1
Shark 1
Alligator 0.3
Bear 0.5
Scorpion 0.5

Yes even one death is unfortunate and devastating to the family. In Florida the biggest risk to a child 1-4 years of age is a swimming pool.

Here are some other stats that are far more reasons for fear having small children around water in Florida.

• Drowning is the leading cause of injury death among children ages 1–4 in Florida. 
• Florida's drowning death rate among children ages 1–4 is the highest in the nation. 
• Enough children drown each year in Florida to fill three to four preschool classrooms. 
• In 2012, 440 Florida residents drowned. There were an additional 343 hospitalizations for non-fatal drownings. Children 1–4 make up 13% of the deaths and 44% of the hospitalizations.

Dave

 

[freshmanjs]

He didn't kick over a sandcastle and splash the water. He waded a foot -- or two -- into the water. The parents were not at his side -- which would have likely prevented the attack. The boy could have charged forward at any moment, and fallen, and drowned. He could have been bitten by a snake.

Are you this outraged by the shootings in Orlando? Because that's a much bigger threat at WDW. Do you need a special sign for that?

I think you are being sarcastic, but the legal answer is that there should be a sign warning about the alligators, but not about potential terrorists.