mom2rtk
Invented the term "Characterpalooza"
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
Thanks! Now he just has to decide if he's ready to move to Madison! But I'm very excited for him.Very cool! Congrats to him!!
Thanks! Now he just has to decide if he's ready to move to Madison! But I'm very excited for him.Very cool! Congrats to him!!
I guess the question of whether we need to regulate the crap out of airlines comes down to if there's a problem with how things currently are. If there is a problem, are airlines willing to address it on their own.
I like my cheap flights. Of course I want it to stay like that but I also want confidence that airlines respect customers.
The biggest problem with this whole situation is United's response. If that's the attitude airlines are going to have, then yeah there needs to be more protections for customers even if that means high prices.
I fly about once or twice a year (usually on American). Every time I have gone online to purchase a ticket I am taken to a screen with a seating diagram and asked to choose my seat from the available seats (with some of the seats only available via an upcharge for extra legroom or what have you). I know Southwest doesn't assign seats.
The policy is a bad one. Period. People have been willing to put up will almost ANYTHING if told by an airline that they have to -- we don't question them enough. This is ONE ISSUE, but it highlighted a larger problem of poor customer service in the industry. And I am glad for that "side effect" of this story.It's a one off thing. It was not good. Do we really need to rant and rave against the entire industry (or even ALL of United) because of the actions on ONE flight on ONE "commuter" affiliate of United? I don't think so. That's why I think this needs to be handled by this passenger pursuing his legal rights in a court of law...it's going to get sorted out one way of the other there. No need to go all "OMG, the entire thing needs to change!" Involuntary bumps occurred 40,000+ times last year, and I do not recall reading of a single instance among those 40,000+ involuntary bumps where a passenger was dragged from a plane. In other words, the system the airlines have for involuntary bumps seems to work pretty well. BTW, United is NOT the airline with the most involuntary bumps. That honor belongs to Delta. Southwest is also right up there.
The question I was addressing is what happens if there ARE no available seats when you purchase your ticket, but the airline is still willing to sell you a ticket on that flight because "statistically" they will be able to accommodate you. The answer I gave is correct. I've flown a lot in my life (at one point, flying 6+ legs a week), and there were MANY times when I could not get a seat assigned in advance. Once or twice a year is not a whole lot of experience to extrapolate from, particularly if it's leisure travel where you book in advance. Business travelers book very late in the game sometimes (for example, a terrible employment problem occurred in our Tucscon office, and I needed to fly THAT day....I ran home, grabbed my bag and went to the airport). A day or two before is something that happens with regularity in that environment. Businesses pay through the nose for these seats...they are much less price sensitive than leisure travelers.
The policy is a bad one. Period. People have been willing to put up will almost ANYTHING if told by an airline that they have to -- we don't question them enough. This is ONE ISSUE, but it highlighted a larger problem of poor customer service in the industry. And I am glad for that "side effect" of this story.
"Vote with your feet" -- This is just not reasonable. If I am going to Hawaii, I can't exactly rent a car. If I am traveling for work with time at a premium, I can't drive across the country each time. And to the extent that I CAN pick an airline with better service (e.g. JetBlue or Alaska), I do -- even at a premium.Like I said earlier, there are people who LOVE the overbooking....they want to be bumped. There are entire blogs and postings devoted to how to increase your chances of being bumped. Some people don't like. Some people do.
And, I don't feel like there is poor customer service in the airline industry. It has not been my experience....YMMV. I choose to fly airlines where I believe I get the best bang for the buck. That's how I vote....with my wallet. I don't feel we need to engage in regulation to solve the problem. Vote with your feet. I guarantee you, however, that MOST leisure travelers will forget this pretty quickly and will once again choose based on who is cheapest. It's the way most people roll. Then they will complain bitterly about their treatment. LOL. It's so predictable. My favorites are people who complain about the lack of service and leg space on Spirit airline...LOL. Really? That's how they make their money...being very low frill and packing 'em in like sardines. Don't complain when you get exactly what you pay for.
"Vote with your feet" -- This is just not reasonable. If I am going to Hawaii, I can't exactly rent a car. If I am traveling for work with time at a premium, I can't drive across the country each time. And to the extent that I CAN pick an airline with better service (e.g. JetBlue or Alaska), I do -- even at a premium.
I think part of the reason for Alaska is that they have free same day standby for any flights to/from Seattle or Portland, OR. That would be worked into their revenue management model to determine how much they'll overbook.
And, I don't feel like there is poor customer service in the airline industry.
"Vote with your feet" -- This is just not reasonable. If I am going to Hawaii, I can't exactly rent a car. If I am traveling for work with time at a premium, I can't drive across the country each time. And to the extent that I CAN pick an airline with better service (e.g. JetBlue or Alaska), I do -- even at a premium.
We are a captive market to a very large extent. And MOST airlines have taken advantage. It is time they make some changes.
We can disagree, clearly. I am NOT happy with the level of customer service. I think the "outcry" on this is largely because many other people aren't either.
Alaska overbooks. The last time I flew on Alaska was August, and I got the checkin message that they were asking for volunteers. JetBlue has an even higher IDB rate than United.
I think part of the reason for Alaska is that they have free same day standby for any flights to/from Seattle or Portland, OR. That would be worked into their revenue management model to determine how much they'll overbook.
Read back some and you'll see the JetBlue data appear to be the result of a temporary adjustment to changes in aircraft. The screenshot you posted is NOT typical JB experience.Alaska overbooks. The last time I flew on Alaska was August, and I got the checkin message that they were asking for volunteers. JetBlue has an even higher IDB rate than United.
I think part of the reason for Alaska is that they have free same day standby for any flights to/from Seattle or Portland, OR. That would be worked into their revenue management model to determine how much they'll overbook.
My point was that you can CHOOSE your airline based on the service they provide. There are multiple carriers operating flights to Hawaii from the west coast. Off the top of my head: United, Delta, American, Hawaiian Airlines, Alaska (and their might be more). You are not "captive" to any airline. It's a free market. If you don't like the service you receive at your local grocery store, what do you do? Choose another store, right? Same with airlines. The negative press United has received is going to cause them to make changes....if they see a significant and sustained loss of passengers, they will make even more. There are two ways to make a capitalistic enterprise change course: customer pressure (specifically, customers going elsewhere) and government regulation. Government regulation, which I am not in general opposed to, nearly always results in increased costs. If we forbid airlines from overbooking, fares will rise. That is just a fact. You can argue all you want that they should be able to improve service without raising rates, but it isn't going to happen. The VAST majority of people (especially leisure travelers) are very price sensitive. They choose based on price above every other factor. That is NOT how I choose. I choose based on service, and the fastest schedule, THEN price....all other factors being equal, I will choose the lesser price. But, I will pay more for better service and a better schedule. I am a relatively rare bird in the leisure travel segment though...don't believe me, read the trip planning threads on this site.
They can make changes, but it will cost you. That simple. If you are not price sensitive (as I am not), I guarantee you, that you are in the minority. They have got to keep butts in the seats to make their business work. It's simply not reasonable to "demand" better service and then expect it to be delivered for the same price.
Look -- I get what you're saying. But options are FAR MORE LIMITED than choosing something like a store to make a purchase. Never said I was captive to ONE AIRLINE -- the choices are VERY LIMITED as compared to most markets.My point was that you can CHOOSE your airline based on the service they provide. There are multiple carriers operating flights to Hawaii from the west coast. Off the top of my head: United, Delta, American, Hawaiian Airlines, Alaska (and their might be more). You are not "captive" to any airline. It's a free market. If you don't like the service you receive at your local grocery store, what do you do? Choose another store, right? Same with airlines. The negative press United has received is going to cause them to make changes....if they see a significant and sustained loss of passengers, they will make even more. There are two ways to make a capitalistic enterprise change course: customer pressure (specifically, customers going elsewhere) and government regulation. Government regulation, which I am not in general opposed to, nearly always results in increased costs. If we forbid airlines from overbooking, fares will rise. That is just a fact. You can argue all you want that they should be able to improve service without raising rates, but it isn't going to happen. The VAST majority of people (especially leisure travelers) are very price sensitive. They choose based on price above every other factor. That is NOT how I choose. I choose based on service, and the fastest schedule, THEN price....all other factors being equal, I will choose the lesser price. But, I will pay more for better service and a better schedule. I am a relatively rare bird in the leisure travel segment though...don't believe me, read the trip planning threads on this site.
They can make changes, but it will cost you. That simple. If you are not price sensitive (as I am not), I guarantee you, that you are in the minority. They have got to keep butts in the seats to make their business work. It's simply not reasonable to "demand" better service and then expect it to be delivered for the same price.
My point was that you can CHOOSE your airline based on the service they provide.
Yes and no... If you live in New Jersey near Newark or on in the north suburbs of Houston the extensive list of cities that United flies to non-stop is probably going to outweigh the crappy customer service.
Seems pathetic to me that they needed this big a PR catastrophe to engage a modicum of common sense. Some others already had.I don't think they need to rework their algorithms, but I agree with you that they probably should give wider latitude to gate agents to "do the right thing." I believe from what I've read they are in the process of doing this, as any company would do when they've had a disastrous (from a PR standpoint) incident like this one.
Correct. Alaska is pretty quick the close the doors upto 10 minutes early. Anyone who shows up 5 minutes before the flight leaves and the doors are already closed is classified as "Involuntary Denied Boarding". That happens most on the Portland flights. They will fill up the plane as fast a possible and depart knowing that if someone doesn't make it the next flight is in a half hour.