Marathon Weekend 2023

[garneska]

I may recycle an old @DopeyBadger plan (he has done 4-5 for me) or ask him to do a fresh one. I tend to use his plans for "A" races and just recycle old plans for fun runs.

the same. If I don’t have an “A” goal I recycle a dopeybadger plan. I was waiting to see how my race today went to try and decide about MW goal. I think my plan is a comfortable, easy, injury free goal so recycled plan is coming (with slower paces).

 

[jpeterson]

SAFD - As I mentioned yesterday, I'm doing a Galloway customized training plan. I struggled a lot with this decision and had a massive meltdown at one point because I was just sooooo confused. I was leaning towards it for a while, but I had some serious questions about the massive amount of mileage in the long runs. As someone who struggled with an overuse injury, I will thoroughly admit that I was spooked by the long runs. But then I heard Chris Twiggs, the CTP coach, talk and he said that there are a lot of plans out there that will get you over the finish line, but that CTP is designed to get you to the start line healthy. That was exactly what I needed to hear. I also cleared the program with my PT and it didn't set off any serious alarm bells for him, which gave me the final confidence to pull the trigger and join.

What originally drew me to CTP was that a) Jeff Galloway and his people know run/walk/run and Dopey inside and out - my PT also creates training plans, but he will be the first to admit that he doesn't have strategies for back to back (to back to back) runs like Dopey and b) I don't know enough to figure out how to juggle a plan properly when days have to be changed or skipped. I know that with CTP I can send Chris a note and he will rearrange things. Also, if I have a thought, he is available to say "yep, good idea" or "not the best idea" based on his years of experience/training people for Dopey.

Also, I got someone to offer to give me the first six months as a gift so that didn't hurt.



Welcome aboard!



One thing that I think gets missed with the CTP long runs is that some of them you are encouraged to WALK. Yes, walk! So while you are getting the time on feet that you need, you aren't getting the pounding of a long run. Just something to consider.



Again, the ratios aren't as set in stone as the RD plan makes them out to be. Chris always says that it is the pace that is the most important thing and that you can play around with the ratio that works best for you to get the specific pace. I didn't understand that before and it was a huge ah-ha/lightbulb moment. I will admit that I'm not 100% on this and am still learning, but it's not as confusing as it was at the beginning.

If anyone is interested in learning more about Customized Training, Chris did a two-part appearance on the Rise and Run podcast (https://riseandrun.buzzsprout.com/ May 5&12 episodes, also available on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, etc.). Rise and Run is also going to have Jeff Galloway himself on the end of June.

Hard agree with everything you said regarding CTP. I joined after hearing that same podcast and am loving it.

That being said, I didn't start out doing run/walk/run and I may transition away from it after my current training plans are up. I think what works best is highly personal and everyone should do what seems to work best for them both physically and mentally. I think that second part is often overlooked.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I love having a plan, and checking off runs, but I am struggling a bit with realizing that I will need to do more days, and longer days (as DH put it, I wanted a marathon training plan that didn't actually require any running! haha). Like everyone, I have challenges around work/commuting and family, so I had been hoping to find a 4 day plan, or at least something with shorter mileage during the week, but I also want to cross the line feeling like I've done the best I possibly can, so I've mostly made my peace with having no life for the next 7 months LOL.

I know this feeling. I went through it in 2015 when at a cross roads. I so desperately wanted to break a sub-4 marathon, and I felt I kept underperforming at the marathon despite all the time I was training on three days per week. My daughter was just over one at the time, and so any time running was time away from her. But I also knew I was trying to set a long term good example for her. So I asked my wife for permission to try the Hansons plan upping to 6 days per week of running. When I dropped my PR from 4:20 to 3:38 in a single training cycle my wife looked at me at the finish line and said, "you're never going back, are you?". Nope. But I've also done my best to balance my goals/running with my family/work commitments in the 7 years since.

One thing I find difficult is _how_ to get faster. I have a very shuffly gait, and I feel like very little power is pushing me forward. I do speed runs sometimes on the Nike Run Club app, and I've gone for a gait assessment, but I think I might need to find some in person coaching or something.

Your "shuffly gait" is very likely not holding you back. From the research I've read, you have to get under about a 6:00-6:30 min/mile before that shuffly gait holds you back. I personally have what others would describe as a "shuffly gait" when my feet don't come very far off the ground and I've run a 1:28 HM. What feels like a shuffly gait is likely an efficient mode of running for the pace you're doing. When you're trying to run fast, think about the ground as hot lava. Keep your foot on the ground for a short period of time (reduce the ground contact time) and try to move your feet fast with your footfall staying underneath your torso. Having a good running gait will help, but it'll be on the margin compared to just increasing your overall amount of running in a healthy manner.

My husband is also a first-timer, and he's never done a race longer than 10k, so I'm more concerned about him. He also has an intense work schedule, and realistically can't do mid-week runs of >6k more than occasionally. We found a 32 week beginner plan with 4 runs/ week, low mid-week mileage and peak of 53.5 km, but it says it is not for people with a finish goal, and he has one. So I think we may need to try to bodge something together for him, or get him to let go of a finish goal.

What did he run a 5k in and what is his 10k goal?

*re: Galloway: I am sure it works for some people, but for me (kinda fat, very slow) I just went along, "Yay, I only have to run/walk 2 x 30-45 min and 1 long run per week and I'll be golden!" - my MM times seemed to indicate that 2:30 half was realistic, but my actual time was way, way slower (it was hot & I did stop for pictures, but I don't think that accounts for all of it). Having said that, Jeff Galloway is a lovely man, and there is no way on earth that I would have even registered for a half if I had to use a "normal" plan (Higdon etc) - too intimidating. So he got me there! And I crossed the line running & smiling! But there's no way I'd use one of those plans again. (I think the most confusing bit is the suggested / recommended intervals... when I did 30/30, the suggestion for my pace, I was way slower than when I did 2 m / 30 sec, which is the suggestion for 9 min/mile people. None of these charts seem to allow for the fact that people run at different paces, or tell you that if you're not reaching that pace in that interval, you need to speed up (or how to speed up) - I know that should be obvious, but it is really a missing piece IMO).

So about a 9:30 min/mile Magic Mile? Several years ago I created a calculator that mixed the Galloway run/walk philosophies with the teachings of Jack Daniels and L. Veronique Billat when it comes to speed based ratios with run/rest. With the combination of these I could try and create a calculator that could use a runner's fitness level plus their current comfortable walking pace into suggested training paces. With someone with a 9:30 MM and a 17:00 min comfortable walking pace, the calculator spits out the following:





These aren't hard pacing suggestions, but rather a starting point.

 

[Ariel484]

SAFD

Thanks for taking my question! Interesting to read all of the options out there,
I feel like the first 5-6 responses were all different.

I said it in a previous post, but I am using Halg Higdon’s Novice Supreme program (starting tomorrow), which is 12 weeks of base building + 18 weeks of his Novice 1 program (but doing Galloway run/walk intervals for my medium/long runs - working up to :90/:30). I’ve used some form of Novice 1 twice and it’s worked well for me. It is 4 days per week of running. The 18-week portion is 2 short runs (3-5 miles - HIIT/Intervals or hill repeats for these), one mid-distance run (3-10 miles) and one long run (6-20 miles) with a peak week of 40 miles. Week 1 of base building is two 1.5-mile runs and two 3-mile runs, which is what I’ve been doing since registration day back in April.

I’m also adding in 2 days of strength training and 10 minutes of core work as many days as possible. I’m not 100% sure how I want to do this yet, but I’m thinking 20-30 minutes of full body strength after the two short runs. I’d also like to add in 20-30 minutes of yoga twice per week. And 5-10 minutes of stretching after each run. So clearly I’m going with the “little bit of everything” approach. The core work especially just makes me feel less achy.

 

[lookingforsunshine]

SAFD:
I am currently training for an Olympic triathlon at the end of August. I have a local coach I found on Facebook— he recently got certified and is offering services for free. Basically he puts workouts into Training Peaks and also leads a track run workout every Wednesday plus sometimes a bike, swim, or brick. I don’t really know what his method is and the plan feels random to me. But honestly it is helping me improve and the most important part is it is keeping me accountable to doing all three disciplines every week so I’m fine with it.

After the triathlon, I will hopefully transition to 48.6 training with @DopeyBadger. I am a little nervous because I know that my long runs won’t be as long as Galloway or whatever since this plan is time-based, but I am going to trust the process! I like the idea of only running 3x a week so I have more time for cycling, yoga, etc or whatever, but multiple 3:30+ hr long runs is just not great for me, and I am more likely to skip them. I am hoping this different methodology helps.
The other thing training wise that I am planning to do is to do my runs… in the morning. I am NOT a morning person and often go to bed at midnight or later. Currently, I do many of my workouts in the evening. This is bad when it comes to Disney because I don’t end up sleeping. I kind of love my night owl identity, but I think I can try to be disciplined enough to be a morning person for Dopey training to see if it helps.

 

[flav]

SAFD: If I can get registered for Dopey 2023… Otherwise my answer still hold whenever next Dopey will be.

Because there would be no time objectives on that race, I would use a marathon training plan that is also aimed at improving something else. Strength training or weight loss, instead of increasing speed.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

SAFD on Monday: Short answer, tbd.

Longer answer, I'm going to try Hal Higdon's Novice 2 plan for my September HM, because it's only 4 days of running per week. I haven't run more than 3 days per week in who knows how long and I like to save some days for cross training too.

If that goes well, I may try a plan with more running for the marathon. Or not, we'll see. But it's great to see all the different plans people are using - I am making mental notes!

 

[_shiny_side_up_]

SAFD: I follow the Higdon training plans for all of my marathons. This year I'm following the Intermediate 1 ( https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/intermediate-1-marathon/ ) to get me ready for Berlin. After that one I'll following the six week "between" plan for Multiple Marathons ( https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/multiple-marathons/ ) for the NYC marathon and then I'll grab whatever weeks I can of the Dopey plan ( https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/dopey-challenge/ ) for the weeks between NYC and Disney. I use a desktop calendar and put the plans up on my office wall to keep track of them on a daily basis.

Everything is personal and I don't advocate that someone should try Hal Higdon over someone else. I've followed Hal Higdon plans from when I started running for my first marathon in 2018 - it worked for me so I've stuck with it.

 

[matt and beth]

I use a modified Hal Higdon. A little less milage in the middle of the week and a little more for the long runs.

 

[WhereInFlorida]

Used Higdon's Intermediate 1 for the 2022 marathon with success (4 min under goal). The 5 days/week worked well for me and I added in intervals on the Wednesday run so that I was always doing 2 quality runs out of the 3 (LR, MP, or Int) per week. Attempted 3 days/wk for strength training but tended to drop off to 1 or 2 days late in the program.

Will us Intermediate 2 this year with adding in intervals and 3 days of strength training.

 

[NYC_MW]

SAFD: cobbling together Higdon's Novice 2 marathon with McMillan Chicago Marathon level 2 (purchased McMillan when it was on sale, and will use his pacing and middle of the week hard day workout, but going off Higdon for the weekend long run mileage). Plus swimming and weights for cross/strength. Then will do something similar with the last 13 weeks of each of their multi-race plans with maybe a week of recovery in between. Hopefully not shooting myself in the foot (literally and figuratively) by frankensteining things.

 

[GreatLakes]

I ran my first 4 marathons using Hal Higdon's plans (intermediate and advanced) and while I finished them all I know I left a lot of time on the course. My last full I used Hanson and felt like I got much closer to my full potential despite testing positive for COVID a month out and losing a week of training.

Higdon had a lot of "run 5 miles today" mid-week while Hanson had actual workouts to do and pace goals. I liked it much better.

 

[BigEeyore]

SAFD: I am running the Chicago marathon and then Dopey, so I plan on using the Higdon Intermediate 1 for Chicago, and then transition into the Dopey plan after a couple of weeks of recovery stuff.
While I would love to shave off some time and PR, I know the amount of work it takes to do that and I just don't have the fire inside of me for it. Currently I am staring down a hot summer of marathon training and wondering how in world I am going to manage it - I went out for 12 miles yesterday, but it turned into 8 because it was already 72 degrees and 95% humidity when I started at 7 am and even trying to slow down my HR just got out of control fast.

 

[NYC_MW]

SAFD: I am running the Chicago marathon and then Dopey, so I plan on using the Higdon Intermediate 1 for Chicago, and then transition into the Dopey plan after a couple of weeks of recovery stuff.
While I would love to shave off some time and PR, I know the amount of work it takes to do that and I just don't have the fire inside of me for it. Currently I am staring down a hot summer of marathon training and wondering how in world I am going to manage it - I went out for 12 miles yesterday, but it turned into 8 because it was already 72 degrees and 95% humidity when I started at 7 am and even trying to slow down my HR just got out of control fast.

Yay Chicago! I forget now, but I think some other folks are running it too? We should try for a meetup there!

 

[accm]

SAFD: Im considering asking @DopeyBadger for a plan, since a 20 mile run is not super realistic for where I’m at in my life right now with a busy job and two kids, and most standard training plans I’ve seen online call for that.

 

[_shiny_side_up_]

Currently I am staring down a hot summer of marathon training and wondering how in world I am going to manage it - I went out for 12 miles yesterday, but it turned into 8 because it was already 72 degrees and 95% humidity when I started at 7 am and even trying to slow down my HR just got out of control fast.

I feel that. I did Corning marathon last year - it was in early October and I swore to myself I'd never train for an early October marathon again after running in Atlanta summers.
And then I got in to Berlin - in late September. I am NOT looking forward to my 20 milers being at the end of August and beginning of September.

 

[camaker]

Currently I am staring down a hot summer of marathon training and wondering how in world I am going to manage it - I went out for 12 miles yesterday, but it turned into 8 because it was already 72 degrees and 95% humidity when I started at 7 am and even trying to slow down my HR just got out of control fast.

I feel that. I did Corning marathon last year - it was in early October and I swore to myself I'd never train for an early October marathon again after running in Atlanta summers.
And then I got in to Berlin - in late September. I am NOT looking forward to my 20 milers being at the end of August and beginning of September.

I definitely feel your pain. I'm getting ready to head out the door for a 10 miler with a temp of 96 degrees and a dew point of 75 degrees (T+D=171). The AccuWeather app is giving me a "Feels Like" of 108 degrees. Time to slow way down!

 

[Jason Bryer]

I have used the Jenny Hadfield plan for the last several marathons. I now use the advanced plan. Just started for Chicago and will be doing Goofy MW (unless I somehow can upgrade to Dopey, still bitter about registration day).
https://www.jennyhadfield.com/training-plans/marathon/

 

[Bree]

SAFD: I'm training for Chicago too (please be good weather this year!!!!!) and using Hanson's Beginner Marathon. The mileage was way too low for the first few weeks so I tweaked it a bit. I really like the variety of workouts from week to week and I'll be ramping up from running 5 days per week to 6. My long runs will be on Thursday, but that's what works best with our horse show schedule. I really should have paid the money for a custom plan, but maybe next year. I've been very consistent with my strength training this year and can totally see a difference compared to last year at this time. I just gotta fit in some more yoga for my hips!!! After Chicago I'll take some time off and ease back into Dopey and probably just recycle the Chicago plan. I have zero time goals other than maybe an attempt at a sub 2 half if I don't manage to pull it off at Space Coast in November.

 

[Bree]

SAFD: I am running the Chicago marathon and then Dopey, so I plan on using the Higdon Intermediate 1 for Chicago, and then transition into the Dopey plan after a couple of weeks of recovery stuff.
While I would love to shave off some time and PR, I know the amount of work it takes to do that and I just don't have the fire inside of me for it. Currently I am staring down a hot summer of marathon training and wondering how in world I am going to manage it - I went out for 12 miles yesterday, but it turned into 8 because it was already 72 degrees and 95% humidity when I started at 7 am and even trying to slow down my HR just got out of control fast.

I live in the Orlando area and trained for Chicago last year. I try and run at 5-5:30am for the longer runs or hop on a treadmill. It's been brutal here with "feel like" temps over 100 degrees every day. It feels more like July weather right now.