Marathon Weekend 2023

[striker1064]

Interesting to hear your experience with different training balances! I like doing other kinds of workouts, especially strength training, in addition to running, which is what drew me to the Higdon novice plans as well for my upcoming HM. But I wonder if I might be better off switching to something with more running when I start training for the marathon.

@DopeyBadger is very much the person who would know about this, but almost everything I've ever read states that the main thing that will make you a better runner is more running. Running more easy miles for a longer duration will make you a better runner over pretty much everything else. The only exception is if you're pushing 90-100 miles per week already without any injury issues; then it makes sense to incorporate strength training and other kinds of workouts. But at the weekly distances the vast majority of us are running, the gains made from other types of workouts are always going to be marginal compared to the gains made from running. And I think that tracks pretty logically. When I'm trying to hone a specific skill, I practice that skill, not other things. There may be other things I can do that help around the edges of whatever I'm trying to improve, but by and large the thing that makes me the most better is practicing the specific skill. Anecdotally, this has tracked for me with running as well. I did other workouts along with a little less running volume for my first HM. I did really well at that race, but that's also when I set out to really improve my running, and I started running more and doing other things less. It's made me a better runner. Conversely, I'm a much worse power lifter than I was when I was deadlifting and squatting 3x times per week, but those things aren't my personal goals anymore. At least not right now.

All that being said, I think it's important to remember one thing -

Try and find ways to make running not something you have to do, but that you get to do. A privilege more than an obligation.

If you like doing other workouts, they're certainly not hurting you! They may not make you as much of a better marathoner as replacing them with more running would, but if replacing all your other activities with running makes running something you have to do, then that's going to be worse in the end than keeping your normal routine.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Interesting to hear your experience with different training balances! I like doing other kinds of workouts, especially strength training, in addition to running, which is what drew me to the Higdon novice plans as well for my upcoming HM. But I wonder if I might be better off switching to something with more running when I start training for the marathon.

I think it's important to experiment with yourself over the course of several training cycles and years. No better evidence than to say there is no one accepted method to endurance training. There are key philosophies that you'll find in most modern day training plans, but there's no one plan or methodology that research or general wisdom dictates is the single correct one for everyone.

With this in mind, I am of the mindset that everyone has a personal limit of running volume in terms of performance. Some runners do best when they're doing 15 hrs of running per week with little other cross training activities. Just more and more and more running. Other runners do better with a mixture of 10 hrs running + some strength training + some other cross activities. These runners have tried the 15 hrs of running per week and found their performance either suffered or they couldn't stay healthy. They've also tried solely doing 10 hrs of running compared to when they did 10 hrs of running + some strength + other cross and found differences in their performance/injuries. Maybe separately, some runners can handle 3 hard workouts per week. Other runners can only handle 1 or 2 hard workouts per week.

I've seen all these things in the very limited number of people I've coached (around 200) compared to the population as a whole. So I think the breadth of experiences I've seen in other runners is probably a good population spectrum in that the basic tenets of modern endurance training hold true with variations in other aspects that maximize one's potential. In my recent dive into Canova's marathon methodology he explains this very thing with two different sets of his runners. Some do about 120-150 miles per week and reach their maximum performance. Some other runners do 80-90 miles per week and reach that same level of maximum performance. But if that second set of runners tried to do 120-150 miles, their performance suffers and they end up injured more often.

When it comes to endurance training and maximal performance, it's all about trying to find the line between enough and too much. So for you personally, if you found in the past you could handle 6 hrs of running per week and you stayed injury free, but weren't satisfied with your performance, then try 8 hrs of running per week the next time around. If you previously tried 9 hrs per week and your training suffered, you had more niggles, then try something a little less but maybe with some cross added in to see if you can find your sweet spot, or maybe tweak the type of hard workouts, or the frequency of hard workouts. It's all about experimenting with yourself over time.

At the end of the day, the vast majority of us do this for fun. As a hobby. So ultimately, find that balance between what keeps it interesting to you and your goals you have for the hobby.

 

[sandam1]

Almost everything I've ever read states that the main thing that will make you a better runner is more running.

When I'm trying to hone a specific skill, I practice that skill, not other things. There may be other things I can do that help around the edges of whatever I'm trying to improve, but by and large the thing that makes me the most better is practicing the specific skill.

I'm going to agree with part of this thought, but very much disagree with the conclusion. My perspectives are informed by my physical therapist who is a runner and deals with runners all of the time in his practice and in a very successful side business.

Yes, the primary way of being a better runner is to actually run. However, there is a point where the potential gains of running more are outweighed by the potential risk of injury. And if you are injured, you aren't getting better because you aren't running, are extremely limited in what you can do, and/or are in a constant state of rebuilding your base after an injury. Adding things like strength training (particularly runner-specific exercises) and cross training can help balance out that risk and stay on the road over the long term, which will absolutely make you are better runner.

Personally, I know that I feel soooooo much better and recover soooooo much faster when I am doing my strength exercises. And if it is at the cost of 30-45 minutes on the road or one extra run a week, I'll deal with it. I've been on the injury train and it was not a fun trip. My goal is to toe the line for Dopey healthy and well-trained and, for me, I know that that means doing the strength and flexibility exercises that I was given religiously.

 

[sandam1]

I know the Galloway plans are usually only 2 short weekday runs. I’ve done half cycles with that approach and finished, but those were not my best race experiences. Do you think there is a way to do as little weekday running as he Galloway plans and still feel well-trained?

I recently signed up for the customized training plan (CTP) through Jeff Galloway. As a result, I've been learning a lot about the Galloway method and, honestly, I think that the generic plan on the runDisney simplifies it way too much and doesn't do it justice.

Yes, the RD plan looks like you can do two short runs and one long run and that's what I'm doing with the CTP. However, I am also doing 45 minutes of aqua jogging once a week - these workouts are no joke and seem to replace a traditional running speed workout without subjecting your body to the pounding - plus one or two days of cross-training. In the end, I have only have one complete rest day. It's a different system, but I've been able to follow it and ramp up my training significantly over the past couple of weeks without lingering soreness, which is a huge success in my book.

 

[Baloo in MI]

SAFD:
I am putting the question out the night before, cause in the morning I will be racing to the gates at Disneyland!!! And I am excited!

So, good evening Disney All Stars, it is time for Saturdays are for Disney. And thank you to @Ariel484 for today’s question - What training plans are you following/planning to follow for Marathon Weekend?

I am following a mash up off Galloway and my PT. With a focus on getting ready for the New York Marathon and then transitioning to Dopey prep. I am running 5 days a week - one day speed work, one day hill/trail work two maintenance runs and a long slow run. I will continue to follow Jeff Galloway’s run, walk, run. I have stayed pretty injury free since adopting it.

 

[Naomeri]

SAFD: I’m currently doing my own kind of ”winging it” training plan leading up through Wine & Dine. I don’t worry too much about specific pacing or effort levels; I run anywhere from 30-90 minutes 3 weekdays a week, and then a longer run on Saturday (or Sunday, if weather or other things interfere). On non-running days, I do either yoga or upper body dumbbell workouts.

 

[jpeterson]

SAFD: I got a customized plan from Chris Twiggs Customized Training. He is the Program Director for Jeff Galloway Training. I'm finding that very handy, since as a novice I was having trouble syncing up where I was in my fitness with the Galloway program. Especially with multiple race weekends booked.

It was super helpful to have someone with experience give me a plan tailored to my needs and goals.

 

[FFigawi]

SAFD: I’m following the “recover from an Ironman and run Dopey 4 weeks later” plan. It’ll probably be a lot of swimming to maintain fitness, plenty of cycling to keep endurance up including the Rapha Festive 500, and some moderate runs to get a bit of time on my feet. Can’t say as it’s recommended by Higdon, Hansons, or by @DopeyBadger.

 

[azrivest]

SAFD: I'm starting a McMillan plan on Monday for his Level 2 Downhill Marathon, as approved by @DopeyBadger . I like that it incorporates planned strength and drill sessions in the plan, and not just runs.

 

[MissLiss279]

SAFD: I’ve been using my Stryd (power) footpod’s high mileage (6 days a week) marathon (or half) plans. I think I’m going to switch to the ‘low’ mileage plans (5 days a week), but add back in the 6th day at an easy pace at the same time/effort as the two other strictly easy days. The high mileage plans were working, but I was starting to struggle with the motivation to run the weeks that had 3-5 weekday runs that have 1.5 hour runs. Either before or after work just wasn’t working great for me. I have several marathons in the fall and my goal is to just finish with no time goals, so hopefully this plan will work without burnout!

 

[camaker]

SAFD: I'm using my time-tested @DopeyBadger Dopey training plan from 2018 Marathon Weekend to train for Weymouth Woods 50k on Labor Day Weekend. From there I plan to do a quick recovery and rebuild to a late October/early November marathon, tentatively the Emerald Isle Marathon on October 22nd at this point. After that, it's back through the later stages of the plan to be ready for Dopey. The plan has served me well for many years now and I hope to continue using it for many more.

 

[Herding_Cats]

CURRENTLY I'm just trying to get some runs in. It's been a mixed bag of results for actually managing to get out the door and run, but now that school is out for the kids (and therefore I have less sports and daytime babysitters) I'm much more optimistic about getting in the miles.

My tentative plan is to do one more week of whatever I can manage for runs (goal right now is 3x/wk) and then to start some iteration of the Higdon novice 1 half marathon plan. That should get me through mid-September when there is a half about 15mi down the road. And then after that hopefully a DopeyBadger plan. I'm guessing it's going to be similar to what I did last year for Goofy, but probably a bit more mileage since I have found that galloway-style intervals are nicer to my body (and brain/attention span) for runs over 6mi (which is about the 90min range) and my plan for last year was written for a continuous running pace, not intervals.

 

[DisneyMountainWoman]

SAFD: I signed up for Jeff Galloways Customized Plans. So far I am loving it. I changed to 20 sec run/30 walk intervals for marathon training based on his suggestions. I also got injured and he changed the plan for my injury (trying to train my new dog to run with me and I injured myself, my new doggy is soo strong), then he added in all my little races to change it. So I do 2 short runs and one long run a week and they stress 3 days of cross training too. I was weak on my cross training, so this really forces me to do that. I write little messages about my run and he will message me back. Also there is a weekly zoom call, I have only made it on once but that is nice to know it is there if I really need to talk it out. So far I have gotten a faster MM base which is nice, since I am a slow runner.

 

[marty3d]

SAFD: Will likely do some variation of the Galloway plan but first I need to figure out what my goals are for Dopey. i Think I’m going to stay away from any real time goals and focus on being fast enough to do all the picture stops I want without ever having to worry about the balloon ladies. just looking to enjoy the races again.

 

[The Expert]

SAFD: I've been thinking about it for while, but I think @sandam1 and @DisneyMountainWoman have convinced me to pull the trigger on a custom Galloway plan. At least for now. I've been focusing on just doing something two or three days a week, but planned to start more focus on Dopey around the end of the month.

Once I hit the long runs that start to creep up into the 3 hour range, I'll switch to a DopeyBadger plan that spreads the mileage out through the week to make it more manageable (and injury less likely).

 

[nekonekoneko]

I'm on the beginner's course, so I just run/walk on the treadmill for 20-30 minutes a day, 2-3 days a week.

My DW is going for her 4th Dopey, and Galloway does her well. We augment it with races in the area. The first one we found is Philadelphia Marathon Weekend is aligned quite well with Galloway's calendar, so we signed her up for that!

 

[jpeterson]

SAFD: I've been thinking about it for while, but I think @sandam1 and @DisneyMountainWoman have convinced me to pull the trigger on a custom Galloway plan. At least for now. I've been focusing on just doing something two or three days a week, but planned to start more focus on Dopey around the end of the month.

Once I hit the long runs that start to creep up into the 3 hour range, I'll switch to a DopeyBadger plan that spreads the mileage out through the week to make it more manageable (and injury less likely).

If you already like the Galloway method, Customized Training is an absolute bargain, in my opinion.

 

[eey777]

SAFD: I'm doing marathon only, and it will be my first, so I've been stewing quite a bit about a plan, so I really appreciate this question! Sorry this is long!

I am leaning to the Hanson's From Scratch plan from their "Hanson's First Marathon" book. This is an 18 week, 5 day / week plan with a starting week of 17 miles / 28 km, and peak week of 46.5 m / 75 km.
I did the 2019 Princess Half using the Galloway plan as provided on the RunDisney website, and I was woefully undertrained*.

I love having a plan, and checking off runs, but I am struggling a bit with realizing that I will need to do more days, and longer days (as DH put it, I wanted a marathon training plan that didn't actually require any running! haha). Like everyone, I have challenges around work/commuting and family, so I had been hoping to find a 4 day plan, or at least something with shorter mileage during the week, but I also want to cross the line feeling like I've done the best I possibly can, so I've mostly made my peace with having no life for the next 7 months LOL.

One thing I find difficult is _how_ to get faster. I have a very shuffly gait, and I feel like very little power is pushing me forward. I do speed runs sometimes on the Nike Run Club app, and I've gone for a gait assessment, but I think I might need to find some in person coaching or something.

My husband is also a first-timer, and he's never done a race longer than 10k, so I'm more concerned about him. He also has an intense work schedule, and realistically can't do mid-week runs of >6k more than occasionally. We found a 32 week beginner plan with 4 runs/ week, low mid-week mileage and peak of 53.5 km, but it says it is not for people with a finish goal, and he has one. So I think we may need to try to bodge something together for him, or get him to let go of a finish goal.

We are in our late 40s / early 50s, both mildly overweight & have desk jobs, and have been running only for the last 8 years, mostly 5-10 km 3-6 days/week.

I'll be watching this thread with interest!

*re: Galloway: I am sure it works for some people, but for me (kinda fat, very slow) I just went along, "Yay, I only have to run/walk 2 x 30-45 min and 1 long run per week and I'll be golden!" - my MM times seemed to indicate that 2:30 half was realistic, but my actual time was way, way slower (it was hot & I did stop for pictures, but I don't think that accounts for all of it). Having said that, Jeff Galloway is a lovely man, and there is no way on earth that I would have even registered for a half if I had to use a "normal" plan (Higdon etc) - too intimidating. So he got me there! And I crossed the line running & smiling! But there's no way I'd use one of those plans again. (I think the most confusing bit is the suggested / recommended intervals... when I did 30/30, the suggestion for my pace, I was way slower than when I did 2 m / 30 sec, which is the suggestion for 9 min/mile people. None of these charts seem to allow for the fact that people run at different paces, or tell you that if you're not reaching that pace in that interval, you need to speed up (or how to speed up) - I know that should be obvious, but it is really a missing piece IMO).

 

[Kerry1957]

I'm only only doing the half this year, so I really haven't started thinking about a Marathon Weekend specific plan. I also have a few 10Ks and halfs (including W&D) before Marathon Weekend.

I may recycle an old @DopeyBadger plan (he has done 4-5 for me) or ask him to do a fresh one. I tend to use his plans for "A" races and just recycle old plans for fun runs.

 

[sandam1]

SAFD - As I mentioned yesterday, I'm doing a Galloway customized training plan. I struggled a lot with this decision and had a massive meltdown at one point because I was just sooooo confused. I was leaning towards it for a while, but I had some serious questions about the massive amount of mileage in the long runs. As someone who struggled with an overuse injury, I will thoroughly admit that I was spooked by the long runs. But then I heard Chris Twiggs, the CTP coach, talk and he said that there are a lot of plans out there that will get you over the finish line, but that CTP is designed to get you to the start line healthy. That was exactly what I needed to hear. I also cleared the program with my PT and it didn't set off any serious alarm bells for him, which gave me the final confidence to pull the trigger and join.

What originally drew me to CTP was that a) Jeff Galloway and his people know run/walk/run and Dopey inside and out - my PT also creates training plans, but he will be the first to admit that he doesn't have strategies for back to back (to back to back) runs like Dopey and b) I don't know enough to figure out how to juggle a plan properly when days have to be changed or skipped. I know that with CTP I can send Chris a note and he will rearrange things. Also, if I have a thought, he is available to say "yep, good idea" or "not the best idea" based on his years of experience/training people for Dopey.

Also, I got someone to offer to give me the first six months as a gift so that didn't hurt.

SAFD: I've been thinking about it for while, but I think @sandam1 and @DisneyMountainWoman have convinced me to pull the trigger on a custom Galloway plan.

Welcome aboard!

Once I hit the long runs that start to creep up into the 3 hour range, I'll switch to a DopeyBadger plan that spreads the mileage out through the week to make it more manageable (and injury less likely).

One thing that I think gets missed with the CTP long runs is that some of them you are encouraged to WALK. Yes, walk! So while you are getting the time on feet that you need, you aren't getting the pounding of a long run. Just something to consider.

(I think the most confusing bit is the suggested / recommended intervals... when I did 30/30, the suggestion for my pace, I was way slower than when I did 2 m / 30 sec, which is the suggestion for 9 min/mile people. None of these charts seem to allow for the fact that people run at different paces, or tell you that if you're not reaching that pace in that interval, you need to speed up (or how to speed up) - I know that should be obvious, but it is really a missing piece IMO).

Again, the ratios aren't as set in stone as the RD plan makes them out to be. Chris always says that it is the pace that is the most important thing and that you can play around with the ratio that works best for you to get the specific pace. I didn't understand that before and it was a huge ah-ha/lightbulb moment. I will admit that I'm not 100% on this and am still learning, but it's not as confusing as it was at the beginning.

If anyone is interested in learning more about Customized Training, Chris did a two-part appearance on the Rise and Run podcast (https://riseandrun.buzzsprout.com/ May 5&12 episodes, also available on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, etc.). Rise and Run is also going to have Jeff Galloway himself on the end of June.