5th Park inevitable ?

[DanBoris]

True, but you are also forgetting the Star Wars resort. I wonder if they don't go to that direction more if and or when they add a major IP? Moving away from the other resorts they have built in some areas. But I grant you other than Star Wars and Reflections....they are basically revamping existing.

Forgot about the Star Wars resort, although that is a different animal since it will be both a hotel and an attraction at the same time. I actually think this is the way Disney will go instead of building a whole new park, boutique up-charge experiences.

 

[DanBoris]

OK. Let's go with that being the absolute driving force (something I can believe).

So given that, it seems the common thread for new park building is "competition". Not "crowd control".

That makes sense.

I have had a hard time buying in to the notion that Disney would spend billions to build a new park simply because their other 4 are so packed. Another park, as I said waaaaay earlier in this thread, is a big risk and if (when) the economy takes a downturn that park would be a big expense. I don't see the risk being worth the reward based on crowd control alone.

Yeah, it really comes down to a question of diminishing returns. There is an upper limit to how many people will visit WDW. As you build more parks you eventually will hit a point where they don't draw in enough new guests to pay for themselves. I believe Animal Kingdom did not lead to huge influx of new guests but instead cannibalized guests from the other parks.

 

[Phicinfan]

Forgot about the Star Wars resort, although that is a different animal since it will be both a hotel and an attraction at the same time. I actually think this is the way Disney will go instead of building a whole new park, boutique up-charge experiences.

Fully agree, I wonder if the rumored Hotel and the entrance to Epcot was to be GotG based? Yikes if so, and I can see why it finally died. But...considering at one time there were plans to use WoL building plus the UofE for GotG. Makes one wonder don't it?

 

[ParkHoppers]

It wasn’t long ago that Disney was spending next to nothing on its US parks. They seemed to be dull and starting to fall apart. With all the new spending the last few years and more scheduled for the next few I find it hard to believe they will then go right into building a 5th gate. That is not usually their MO. I think Disney will add to the existing parks then wait to see the results. I can’t see a 5th park being built in the next 10 years. Maybe after that.

 

[Dfan79]

Studios was very much Universal. Animal was a reaction to other competition. They didn’t build a zoo to counter a mild thrill park. It was preemptive against Busch while also competing against Universal and SeaWorld.

Busch may have opened first, but when it opened it was a brewery and a garden. It opened with 4 employees and 4 parrots. It became the park it is today, much much later. In 1965, it expanded with a savanna for animals, solidifying it’s zoo status. It wasn’t until 1976 it got its first ride, the Scorpion coaster. In the late 90’s it started having more aggressive expansion plans, adding many coasters.

Busch Gardens is no threat, people weren't saving up their money to have Busch Garden vacations. Disney would laugh at the notion that it was anywhere near it on the competition ladder.

That mild thrill park (IOA) you're talking about is in not only in their backyard, but it actually has many headline IP's. It doesn't just have generic animal themed rides that you could find in any Six Flags.

 

[The Pho]

Busch Gardens is no threat, people weren't saving up their money to have Busch Garden vacations. Disney would laugh at the notion that it was anywhere near it on the competition ladder.

That mild thrill park (IOA) you're talking about is in not only in their backyard, but it actually has many headline IP's. It doesn't just have generic animal themed rides that you could find in any Six Flags.

At the time Animal Kingdom was being designed and built, people weren’t saving up for vacations to Universal either compared to the other Orlando area parks. SeaWorld, Busch Gardens, and Universal Studios all had fairly even attendance figures for years. And two of them had aggressive expansion plans. It was a counter to their competitors not simply one. Universal just had the fortune of being the only one of the three that didn’t fall apart, so they seem more relevant from today’s eyes.

And I’m only aware of a single Six Flags with animals, so not sure how you can find them at any Six Flags or how they’re relevant here.

 

[DanBoris]

At the time Animal Kingdom was being designed and built, people weren’t saving up for vacations to Universal either compared to the other Orlando area parks. SeaWorld, Busch Gardens, and Universal Studios all had fairly even attendance figures for years. And two of them had aggressive expansion plans. It was a counter to their competitors not simply one. Universal just had the fortune of being the only one of the three that didn’t fall apart, so they seem more relevant from today’s eyes.

And I’m only aware of a single Six Flags with animals, so not sure how you can find them at any Six Flags or how they’re relevant here.

Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ has a Safari like Animal Kingom...

https://www.sixflags.com/greatadventure/attractions/animal-attractions

 

[The Pho]

Six Flags Great Adventure in NJ has a Safari like Animal Kingom...

https://www.sixflags.com/greatadventure/attractions/animal-attractions

Which is the single Six Flags I was referring to.

 

[DanBoris]

Which is the single Six Flags I was referring to.

Sorry, mis-read your post, through you were saying that there "wasn't a single".

 

[Dfan79]

At the time Animal Kingdom was being designed and built, people weren’t saving up for vacations to Universal either compared to the other Orlando area parks. SeaWorld, Busch Gardens, and Universal Studios all had fairly even attendance figures for years. And two of them had aggressive expansion plans. It was a counter to their competitors not simply one. Universal just had the fortune of being the only one of the three that didn’t fall apart, so they seem more relevant from today’s eyes.

And I’m only aware of a single Six Flags with animals, so not sure how you can find them at any Six Flags or how they’re relevant here.

I was referring to the rides, not the animal safari which is only one attraction. All of them can be found at various Six Flags across America with different names. I would even put Six Flags ahead of Busch Gardens, because at least they have IP's like DC Comics and Warner Brothers. All Busch Gardens has is a bunch of lame generic animal named attractions.

Sheikra, Cheetah Hunt, Scorpion, Kumba, Montu, Sand Serpent, Cobra's Curse, Tigris, etc

 

[aristocatz]

I did not read all 20 pages of replies, so take it for what it's worth, but I don't think they should even consider building a 5th park until they have fixed or finished the current 4. I've been going to WDW since 1979, and during my last trip, I definitely felt a "ghost town" feel in some of the parks or areas of the parks. Areas that used to be purposed and detailed, but this time definitely just felt forgotten.

MK has rides and attractions that need re-purposing.
Epcot needs more countries.
DHS needs.......a theme park......and hopefully will return to being one after the Star Wars addition
DAK could also use some expansion & repurposing.

I would rather see them pool their money into enhancing what they currently have, rather than branching out to build another park filled with empty gaps.

 

[The Pho]

I was referring to the rides, not the animal safari which is only one attraction. All of them can be found at various Six Flags across America with different names. I would even put Six Flags ahead of Busch Gardens, because at least they have IP's like DC Comics and Warner Brothers. All Busch Gardens has is a bunch of lame generic animal named attractions.

Sheikra, Cheetah Hunt, Scorpion, Kumba, Montu, Sand Serpent, Cobra's Curse, Tigris, etc

Again how is that relevant at all to the state of theme parks in central Florida 20-25 years ago, of which Six Flags has none (Six Flags Atlantis was the closest but it was a water park that they sold in 1989 and then closed in 1992)? Most of those are recent additions after the park changed focus to become a thrill park. Busch had IP and heavier themed rides back then. They even had simulators and a Jungle Cruise style ride, but with actual animals. And Busch was still focused on expanding their animal offerings considerably, with a major one in 1997. Ultimately Busch Gardens is a very different place today.


And really none of this is relevant anymore to the discussion of a 5th gate at Disney.

 

[Dfan79]

Again how is that relevant at all to the state of theme parks in central Florida 20-25 years ago, of which Six Flags has none (Six Flags Atlantis was the closest but it was a water park that they sold in 1989 and then closed in 1992)? Most of those are recent additions after the park changed focus to become a thrill park. Busch had IP and heavier themed rides back then. They even had simulators and a Jungle Cruise style ride, but with actual animals. And Busch was still focused on expanding their animal offerings considerably, with a major one in 1997. Ultimately Busch Gardens is a very different place today.

My emphasis in my posts were that Busch Gardens is not a threat. And just because they have similar theming doesn't mean Disney sees them as one. Disney just saw a great idea for a park and ripped it off and then took it to a whole new level.

Since it opened Universal has always been the 2nd biggest fish in the area. Disney has opened things to counteract its real competition. Even if it meant opening parks before they were complete (with Hollywood and Animal).

Disney doesn't not care about the little clown fish that's an hour and a half away. When they have a 25 foot great white shark nearby.

 

[Captain Kittens]

A 5th park is NOT coming in our life times and this blog post nails it on the head as to why: https://www.disneytouristblog.com/no-fifth-park-disney-world/

Lets be real here: Busch Gardens is trash. Six Flags is even more trash.

I spent a third of my honeymoon at Universal and while its "alright" I felt it could not hold a candle to Disney World. We stayed at the Pacific Royal Hotel and we did Freight Night, Uni during the day and Islands of Adventure. My take away is this...more adult-themed rides but the overall theme parks themselves were a let down. Universal was BORING as can and there was absolutely nothing there that wowed me except for the Wizarding World. This was actually the best part of the whole Uni trip imo. We went during Freight Night and Diagon Alley felt looked and felt amazing. It was dark so the area was a more subdued and all the glowing amber lights definitely gave it this eerie "London at night" feel. It would absolute not be the same during the day.

Outside of that, MEH! The roller-coasters at Island of Adventure are fun but but it ends there. The customer service isnt as impeccable as Disney either.

 

[The Pho]

Since it opened Universal has always been the 2nd biggest fish in the area.

That is simply false. Universal had a famously poor start. They were behind SeaWorld and Busch for a while.

When they have a 25 foot great white shark nearby.

And SeaWorld also had the actual Bruce the Shark from Jaws on display, not Universal. Granted, once they actually fixed Jaws three years after trying to open it, they gained major ground.

 

[Dfan79]

That is simply false. Universal had a famously poor start. They were behind SeaWorld and Busch for a while.

Nope, you're wrong on this one. Compared to Disney their attendance was small, but they consistently beat Busch and Sea World, even in the bad years.

2000

1. Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, 15.4 million (up 1.3%)
2. Disneyland, 13.9 million (up 3%)
3. Epcot at Walt Disney World, 10.6 million (up 5%)
4. Disney's MGM Studios at Walt Disney World, 8.9 million (up 2%)
5. Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World, 8.3 million (down 3%)
6. Universal Studios Orlando, 8.1 million (flat)
7. Islands of Adventure, 6 million (first full year)
8. Universal Studios Hollywood, 5.2 million (up 2%)
9. SeaWorld Orlando, 5.2 million (up 11%)
10. Busch Gardens Tampa, 5 million (up 28%) *

2001

1 - The Magic Kingdom - 14.7 million - down 700K
2 - Disneyland - 12.3 million - down 1.6 million
3 - Epcot - 9 million - down 1.6 million
4 - Disney-MGM Studios - 8.3 million - down 600K
5 - Disney's Animal Kingdom - 7.7 million - down 600K
6 - Universal Studios Florida - 7.2 million - down 900K
7 - Islands of Adventure - 5.5 million - down 500K
8 - SeaWorld Orlando - 5.1 million - down 100K
9 - Disney's California Adventure - 5 million - opened in 2001
10 - Universal Studios Hollywood - 4.7 million - down 500K
11 - Busch Gardens Tampa Bay - 4.6 million - down 8 percent

* "One of the big winners in 2000 was Busch Gardens Tampa, which saw its attendance sky rocket 28%. The park's early season promotion for Florida residents paid off. The park gave away a season pass to residents who purchased a full priced, single day admission. According to the park they made up for the lost admission revenue with increases in merchandise and concession sales."

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Universal Orlando opened in the late 80's. Attendance estimates from a decade later don't mean anything.

 

[disnut4ever]

Universal Orlando opened in the late 80's. Attendance estimates from a decade later don't mean anything.

You should actually try reading before you post. Then maybe you'd know what people are talking about.

 

[The Pho]

You should actually try reading before you post. Then maybe you'd know what people are talking about.

The discussion at that point became Universal’s attendance when it opened, so the 2000 and 2001 figures are not relevant, as he said.

Nope, you're wrong on this one. Compared to Disney their attendance was small, but they consistently beat Busch and Sea World, even in the bad years.

2000

1. Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, 15.4 million (up 1.3%)
2. Disneyland, 13.9 million (up 3%)
3. Epcot at Walt Disney World, 10.6 million (up 5%)
4. Disney's MGM Studios at Walt Disney World, 8.9 million (up 2%)
5. Animal Kingdom at Walt Disney World, 8.3 million (down 3%)
6. Universal Studios Orlando, 8.1 million (flat)
7. Islands of Adventure, 6 million (first full year)
8. Universal Studios Hollywood, 5.2 million (up 2%)
9. SeaWorld Orlando, 5.2 million (up 11%)
10. Busch Gardens Tampa, 5 million (up 28%) *

2001

1 - The Magic Kingdom - 14.7 million - down 700K
2 - Disneyland - 12.3 million - down 1.6 million
3 - Epcot - 9 million - down 1.6 million
4 - Disney-MGM Studios - 8.3 million - down 600K
5 - Disney's Animal Kingdom - 7.7 million - down 600K
6 - Universal Studios Florida - 7.2 million - down 900K
7 - Islands of Adventure - 5.5 million - down 500K
8 - SeaWorld Orlando - 5.1 million - down 100K
9 - Disney's California Adventure - 5 million - opened in 2001
10 - Universal Studios Hollywood - 4.7 million - down 500K
11 - Busch Gardens Tampa Bay - 4.6 million - down 8 percent

* "One of the big winners in 2000 was Busch Gardens Tampa, which saw its attendance sky rocket 28%. The park's early season promotion for Florida residents paid off. The park gave away a season pass to residents who purchased a full priced, single day admission. According to the park they made up for the lost admission revenue with increases in merchandise and concession sales."

From Amusement Business, the precursor to TEA:

1991

Magic Kingdom - 18 million
EPCOT Center - 14.3 million
Disneyland - 11.7 million
Disney-MGM Studios - 6.8 million
SeaWorld Orlando - 6 million
Busch Gardens: The Dark Continent - 5.2 million
Universal Studios Florida - 4.3 million


Universal did not pass SeaWorld until 1994, and not by much.

 

[disnut4ever]

The discussion at that point became Universal’s attendance when it opened, so the 2000 and 2001 figures are not relevant, as he said.

We were talking about Islands of Adventure. You said Disney made "Animal Kingdom" because of "Busch Gardens", which is ridiculous. I don't know why you're bringing up the attendance about Universal in 91. Perhaps because you're wrong.

That has nothing to do with the Busch Garden topic.