Avatarland? scaleback

[johnGorski]

The huge announcement about Avatarland was out in the main stream media, something that not simply announced at d23. So the average joe was like wow disney is going to shell out half a billion dollars for a DAK Avatarland while us that follow this are show me something! Its been almost 9 months now and all we have heard there may be a flight sim E-ticket featuring Avatar. That points to me just a ride thats it, thats fine but use that extra money promised for other attractions. I would welcome a WoC type show even over a ride! Maybe with the negitive feedback with Avatarland they are rethinking it who knows.

 

[DCTooTall]

The huge announcement about Avatarland was out in the main stream media, something that not simply announced at d23. So the average joe was like wow disney is going to shell out half a billion dollars for a DAK Avatarland while us that follow this are show me something! Its been almost 9 months now and all we have heard there may be a flight sim E-ticket featuring Avatar. That points to me just a ride thats it, thats fine but use that extra money promised for other attractions. I would welcome a WoC type show even over a ride! Maybe with the negitive feedback with Avatarland they are rethinking it who knows.

Honestly.... I've said since the original announcement that a WoC Type show would be a great part of this expansion. If you think about it, It would fit extremely well with the whole "living glowing planet" look of Pandora, it would provide a way of them bringing the show to Florida that a lot of people have been asking for, And it would provide a night-time/closing spectacular entertainment option to AK that many guests feel is lacking at Animal Kingdom. Which in turn, provides a reason for people to spend more time at the park. And it would provide a way to do so without the "disturbing the animals" concerns that have preventing the use of pyrotechnics within the park.

 

[johnGorski]

Honestly.... I've said since the original announcement that a WoC Type show would be a great part of this expansion. If you think about it, It would fit extremely well with the whole "living glowing planet" look of Pandora, it would provide a way of them bringing the show to Florida that a lot of people have been asking for, And it would provide a night-time/closing spectacular entertainment option to AK that many guests feel is lacking at Animal Kingdom. Which in turn, provides a reason for people to spend more time at the park. And it would provide a way to do so without the "disturbing the animals" concerns that have preventing the use of pyrotechnics within the park.

i know people say there is a no waterspace for this kind of show, a man made lake could be but right in the front of the park behind Rain Forest Cafe with out interfering with the wild life. Another space the lake between dino land and EE.

IMHO the 70-100 million dollar investment of a WoC show would be well worth it.

 

[DCTooTall]

i know people say there is a no waterspace for this kind of show, a man made lake could be but right in the front of the park behind Rain Forest Cafe with out interfering with the wild life. Another space the lake between dino land and EE.

IMHO the 70-100 million dollar investment of a WoC show would be well worth it.

There are already a couple of options depending upon the amount of space needed.

1. There is a small outlet/lake just to the left of the existing bridge into the Camp Minnie Mickey area. It's not too big, but I don't see why it couldn't also be expanded slightly. (bonus: The fountains would help with the water circulation to help eliminate the nasty green buildup that's built up on the water surface on that side of the loop.)

2. There is already a lake behind where the Festival of the Lion King is located. (on the other side of a service road). Again... providing access/viewing areas and/or expanding the lake would provide a decent location.


Remember, Camp Minnie Mickey is located on only a very small portion of the land that was designated for the Beastly Kingdom.

 

[skier_pete]

Ha ha...I love the rampant pessimism that runs through the on-line community. Everyone was buzzing back In Feb/Mar. "We haven't heard anything...it's clearly been canceled." The knives and sharpeners come out from you guys..."See I told you, I told you."

Then, Oops, Iger says its still a go. Cameron says its still a go. Darn, we can't skewer Disney for that.

"Oh wait, Cameron only mentioned a single ride! Oooh, that must mean there's ONLY gonna be a single ride! Hey look, we got something new to get Disney on. They suck! SUCK I TELL YOU!"

Did it ever occur to you in the design phase that they aren't going to tell us non-Disney shmucks (or for that matter CMs like the one that started the rumor) details until its fully realized. When did we really first hear about the FLE expansion beyond vague rumors: when the blueprint dropped that has the entire expansion spelled out! SO, to me the fact we have seen no design work means nothing. They've probably learned the lesson pretty well not to leak stuff too early. Because, if you leak stuff and then it gets changed, you look like an idiot.

Here one thing I know: "James Cameron" and "scaled-back budget" are not two phrases that EVER show up in the same sentence. So, until they come out of his or a Disney exec's mouth, I will choose not to believe it.

(And people talk like $500 million is really a ton of movie....they spend $250 million on John Carter...so think on that.)

 

[johnGorski]

Ha ha...I love the rampant pessimism that runs through the on-line community. Everyone was buzzing back In Feb/Mar. "We haven't heard anything...it's clearly been canceled." The knives and sharpeners come out from you guys..."See I told you, I told you."

Then, Oops, Iger says its still a go. Cameron says its still a go. Darn, we can't skewer Disney for that.

"Oh wait, Cameron only mentioned a single ride! Oooh, that must mean there's ONLY gonna be a single ride! Hey look, we got something new to get Disney on. They suck! SUCK I TELL YOU!"

Did it ever occur to you in the design phase that they aren't going to tell us non-Disney shmucks (or for that matter CMs like the one that started the rumor) details until its fully realized. When did we really first hear about the FLE expansion beyond vague rumors: when the blueprint dropped that has the entire expansion spelled out! SO, to me the fact we have seen no design work means nothing. They've probably learned the lesson pretty well not to leak stuff too early. Because, if you leak stuff and then it gets changed, you look like an idiot.

Here one thing I know: "James Cameron" and "scaled-back budget" are not two phrases that EVER show up in the same sentence. So, until they come out of his or a Disney exec's mouth, I will choose not to believe it.

(And people talk like $500 million is really a ton of movie....they spend $250 million on John Carter...so think on that.)

Great point about the FLE, we had drawings right when it was announced. If this will not go to the full budget as promised, Iger will look like and idiot.

 

[Prock]

There is no way to be sure at this point...but for "cast member friend" type rumors...all of what you said see entirely within the realm of possibilities.

Studios still needs consistent, core investment...and will for quite awhile at their snails pace...

the Avatar announcement always seemed more like a "ride" than a land. Disney was using the announcement to try to make "their own" heavily themed concept like the harry potter addition at universal. I, personally, don't believe they ever intended on expanding past a ride...but were using it to deflect PR/...which is often the goal.

As far as the "mythical kingdom"...that may eventually be what goes in. As it was the original plan and has been pined for by both employees and the core fan base alike since the day it was scrapped by evil mikey eisner to rush the park opening and cut the budget. that of course was to "beat" the opening of IOA - two parks that are apples and oranges and aren't really comparable on any level.

But that sounds like wishful thinking - expanded parks require more staffing and operating costs...which - as we've seen - have been avoided like the plague for quite sometime.

We shall see.

On another related note: i read an article in the wall street journal (which i rarely do - because that paper spews all of whats wrong with the country and what is harmful to disney park fans) yesterday commenting on the expected rising returns on TWDC stocks because they a "exiting a period of heavy capital reinvestment" over the last few years.
Summary: they've spent SOOOO much money in their parks - now we investors can make the money off them we deserved as they begin to shake the money tree...

Unfortunately, WDW - in proportion - will not look a whole lot different after these fantastic expenditures...and if you think about it: the wrecking of pleasure island is almost off-setting the fantasyland expansion.
Which means that the only real huge bump of the last 10+ years are villas, toy story mania (which in reality is a kinda simple theme park ride with lots of money dumped on top), and apparently the failed Expedition Everest.

That's not to discount the money/improvements to fantasyland - which seem to be pretty good effort...but is it enough to keep wdw elite longterm? or better yet...anywhere close to the huge prices that they will slap on it going forward?

your opinion on that...i know what mine is.

But the end result is that i actually look for a significant "dead time" in capital investments to be in order.

And...big and...the impending retirement of Iger is a HUGE deal when it comes to park investments.
whoever they replace him with will probably try to "stamp" the operation - as all egotistical overpaid cutthroats do...

if its somebody young and imaginative like - ironically -the 1984 michael eisner...then the paying customer could benefit.

If its Tom Skaggs...a glorified accountant...my premise is only beginning.
more to come

Why does Eisner get such a bad rap around here? Id think the guy who built 3 parks in the US alone would be loved but no instead everyone hates him

 

[ChrisFL]

Why does Eisner get such a bad rap around here? Id think the guy who built 3 parks in the US alone would be loved but no instead everyone hates him

Ironic since all 3 parks were built with as low a budget as possible and 2 out of 3 are still trying to become full-day destinations, DAK and DHS

Things for Disney started to get bad around 1994, which is also the year that Frank Wells was tragically killed. He seemed to be a bit of a balancing point for Eisner, and without him, the company went into some of its worst days, imagineering-wise.

 

[skier_pete]

Why does Eisner get such a bad rap around here? Id think the guy who built 3 parks in the US alone would be loved but no instead everyone hates him

Ironic since all 3 parks were built with as low a budget as possible and 2 out of 3 are still trying to become full-day destinations, DAK and DHS

Things for Disney started to get bad around 1994, which is also the year that Frank Wells was tragically killed. He seemed to be a bit of a balancing point for Eisner, and without him, the company went into some of its worst days, imagineering-wise.

In his later years he did a lot of short-sighted crap, but we should all be thankful of Eisner for one major thing: He didn't just increase the number of parks, he turned WDW into a true resort, he was responsible for not just DHS and DAK, but the water parks, DTD, many of the resorts and don't forget he was the one that put in Pleasure Island, not the one that closed it.

I won't deny that there has been some short-sightedness over the last few years, but why won't anyone see all the things they are trying to do right lately. (1) Fix California Adventure, (2) expand DCL with bigger, better ships, (3) not only approve the FLE, but when they determined it skewed too girly they decided to fix that a bit, (4) put up the money for Avatarland. What I don't get - and I've said this before - is all the criticism dumped on Avatarland. Who really cares if you like the movie or not? Song of the South is not a great movie and many of us haven't even seen it, but they turnred it into a GREAT ride (Splash Mountain). You don't have to love Aerosmith to think Rock R Roller Coaster is fun. What should matter is that they are expanding animal kingdom by a significant amount, and likely putting in some pretty state-of-the-art stuff. Why fight so hard to be against all that? I know this rant isn't going to convince anyone that it'll be any good, but at least keep open to the fact that maybe it will be. And don't let "A CM friend of mine said...." get you down.

Maybe i should start a rumor "A CM friend of mine said that they've increased the Avatar budget by $100 million so that they could add a fourth ride to the three already planned." Of course, that no-one would believe.

 

[cmb5002]

I've always thought that "Avatarland" was a bit of a risk. It may have made more money than any other movie, but I've always found it to have a rather generic story. It always seemed like the combinations of the 3D and CGI graphics were the big draw. When compared to something like Star Wars (which is on its 2nd or 3rd generation of fans) it just doesn't seem to have the same staying power. I'd think that making a Star Wars Land in DHS would create much more of a draw. Maybe I'm wrong and Avatar 2 will really increase interest in Avatarland, but I just don't see it happening.

 

[DCTooTall]

Why does Eisner get such a bad rap around here? Id think the guy who built 3 parks in the US alone would be loved but no instead everyone hates him

Eisner did a lot of great things, and we can all be thankful of what he did for the Disney Company (The least of which helping to save it from the early-80's takeover attempts, the Renaissance of Disney Animation which brought us classics like Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast, and the expansion of WDW into a full fledge resort destination)..... But the problem with the guy was he ultimately become too comfortable in the position and too full of himself and lost track of what made the company what it was. He also didn't do his legacy any favors with the way he handled the situation that eventually led to his departure.

In his later years he did a lot of short-sighted crap, but we should all be thankful of Eisner for one major thing: He didn't just increase the number of parks, he turned WDW into a true resort, he was responsible for not just DHS and DAK, but the water parks, DTD, many of the resorts and don't forget he was the one that put in Pleasure Island, not the one that closed it.

I won't deny that there has been some short-sightedness over the last few years, but why won't anyone see all the things they are trying to do right lately. (1) Fix California Adventure, (2) expand DCL with bigger, better ships, (3) not only approve the FLE, but when they determined it skewed too girly they decided to fix that a bit, (4) put up the money for Avatarland. What I don't get - and I've said this before - is all the criticism dumped on Avatarland. Who really cares if you like the movie or not? Song of the South is not a great movie and many of us haven't even seen it, but they turnred it into a GREAT ride (Splash Mountain). You don't have to love Aerosmith to think Rock R Roller Coaster is fun. What should matter is that they are expanding animal kingdom by a significant amount, and likely putting in some pretty state-of-the-art stuff. Why fight so hard to be against all that? I know this rant isn't going to convince anyone that it'll be any good, but at least keep open to the fact that maybe it will be. And don't let "A CM friend of mine said...." get you down.

Maybe i should start a rumor "A CM friend of mine said that they've increased the Avatar budget by $100 million so that they could add a fourth ride to the three already planned." Of course, that no-one would believe.

I honestly think a lot of the hating on Avatarland comes from people who either don't want Avatarland to even be a thing, Can't see past the "Dances with Smurfs" stereotype of the movie, or just can't see how it'd fit in the parks.

I've always thought that "Avatarland" was a bit of a risk. It may have made more money than any other movie, but I've always found it to have a rather generic story. It always seemed like the combinations of the 3D and CGI graphics were the big draw. When compared to something like Star Wars (which is on its 2nd or 3rd generation of fans) it just doesn't seem to have the same staying power. I'd think that making a Star Wars Land in DHS would create much more of a draw. Maybe I'm wrong and Avatar 2 will really increase interest in Avatarland, but I just don't see it happening.

I think the big problem here is people are trying to picture this expansion as "Avatar: The Ride", instead of seeing what the property truly offers. I've said since the day it was announced that it was a great move, and an AWESOME fit for AK... but not because of the whole plot and conservation message of the first movie, but for the amazing world/ecosystem which James Cameron built in which to place his movie.

Don't think of this as "Avatarland", but instead as "Pandora".

A Lush planet full of totally unique creatures and plants. The Awesome evening look of the area as the plants and animals come alive and glow with a unique luminescence you can't see outside of the world of Pandora. It's this aspect that I think makes it fit wonderfully within the context of Animal Kingdom. Cameron created an entire world and ecosystem for the movie, in much more detail than was probably needed to tell his story... and it is in these details that I think provide Disney much more value upon which to build an interesting and cohesive land.

By comparison, the issue with building a StarWars Land is that you don't really have a single good location in which to build an entire experience. Since Star Wars takes place in many different locations, It's much harder to create a single land in which to incorporate multiple different experiencing into a cohesive story with amazing visuals like they can with Pandora. (Are you going to build a Corsucant City? Forest of Endor? Desert of Tatoonie? Ice Planet of Hoth? none really offer a great immersive visual experience with multiple possibilities for interesting attractions that fit the story location)

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Why does Eisner get such a bad rap around here? Id think the guy who built 3 parks in the US alone would be loved but no instead everyone hates him

I'm not sure i give michael eisner a bad rap...

He was really the driving force behind what made Disney an entertainment giant (there are only four or five now...and disney's one of them)..and that has given the fans a lot to be happy for...

But he did go off the rails in later years...he appeared to trust only himself and ignore the fundamental principle of entertainment that he himself was taught as a young man at ABC and then paramount: that new blood is needed and you get stale if you aren't pushed internally.

And he would have neither in his later years...a control freak and a bit of a xenophobe.

the 1994 death of his near equal frank wells is a good starting point...but disney started to change for the bad - in my opinion - for good when smiling Mikey walked out and to the podium and announced he was buying capitol cities - ABC - where he started.

There is a lot to not like about that move...as it has not made ABC the supreme entertainment power...but it has diverted their attention in many ways away from quality movie and theme park product...and thats an easy conclusion to come to if you just look at the timeline after the 95-96 buyout.

So while he is probably the third most important figure in Disney history - he did lead the operation into a period of stagnation that they still haven't quite got out of...they are really no stronger today than they were in 1998...chinese trade deals ...errr...i mean...."parks" aside.

He gets tremendous credit...maybe more than anyone else deserves...but the problem with legacies are that they are fragile and one bad move or collection of bad moves...as he had in later years...can ruin everything.

 

[DCTooTall]

So while he is probably the third most important figure in Disney history - he did lead the operation into a period of stagnation that they still haven't quite got out of...they are really no stronger today than they were in 1998...chinese trade deals ...errr...i mean...."parks" aside.

I'm kinda curious how you came up with 3rd most important. I figure 1 and 2 are obviously Walt himself and his Brother Roy, so on a personal standpoint, I have to wonder how you ended up with Mike for 3rd.

I agree... he's definitely up there as without his joining the Disney Family things would be a whole lot different today, but with so many other people who've contributed so much to the Disney organization.... such as Roy E.(Who ironically enough, Not only is responsible for bringing Eisner into Disney... but also for kicking him out), or Even some of the nine Old Men... I'm not even sure if I could easily rank some of those 3-10 spots effectively.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm kinda curious how you came up with 3rd most important. I figure 1 and 2 are obviously Walt himself and his Brother Roy, so on a personal standpoint, I have to wonder how you ended up with Mike for 3rd.

I agree... he's definitely up there as without his joining the Disney Family things would be a whole lot different today, but with so many other people who've contributed so much to the Disney organization.... such as Roy E.(Who ironically enough, Not only is responsible for bringing Eisner into Disney... but also for kicking him out), or Even some of the nine Old Men... I'm not even sure if I could easily rank some of those 3-10 spots effectively.

1. Roy O Disney
2. Walter E Disney
3. Michael Eisner
4. Roy E Disney
5. Donn Tatum
6. Card Walker
7. Ron Miller
8. Frank Wells
9. Barton "Bo" Boyd
10. Creative Tie: Marty Sklar, Ub Iwerks, Marc Davis, Herb Ryman


off the top of my head

 

[johnGorski]

Don't think of this as "Avatarland", but instead as "Pandora".

A Lush planet full of totally unique creatures and plants. The Awesome evening look of the area as the plants and animals come alive and glow with a unique luminescence you can't see outside of the world of Pandora. It's this aspect that I think makes it fit wonderfully within the context of Animal Kingdom. Cameron created an entire world and ecosystem for the movie, in much more detail than was probably needed to tell his story... and it is in these details that I think provide Disney much more value upon which to build an interesting and cohesive land.

I agree! thinking of it as Pandora, have a nice walk though gentle attraction featuring pandora! Then a thrill E-ticket and top it off with a WoC type fountain show would be a perfect DAK expansion. Personaly I hope they invest the full 500 million into this project! and make it great.

 

[cmb5002]

I don't doubt that the Imagineers will be able to create a wonderfully immersive environment. Nor do I doubt that the best fit for Avatar/Pandora was DAK, and vice versa. That park really needs another E-ticket to draw crowds, especially in the evening hours. Pandora at night should be nothing short of amazing and when I see it for the first time I expect my jaw to drop. I am really looking forward to it.

That being said, if my name is Bob Iger, I'm going to be looking for something to counter HP/Universal. Does Avatar have a big fan base? Without a doubt, but when you look at the age group it simply doesn't compare to Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels and cartoons, they help create a fan base that spans from 8 to 60. A group that large means more tickets and merchandize to sell, and that is the end game. I would pit Star Wars against Harry Potter all day every day before I considered Avatar. I just think Star Wars will, over time, be a bigger crowd draw.

It would be a challenge to fit a new land into DHS. The ABC Soundstage and Backlot Express would both need a refurb to match the new theme. After that the only other logical place to go is Indiana Jones. I really don't want that to go, but it would make sense, especially considering how old the show is. I don't deny that all of this is a hard sell, but it can't be much more than Avatar.

...unfortunately, my name isn't Bob Iger.

 

[DanBoris]

I don't doubt that the Imagineers will be able to create a wonderfully immersive environment. Nor do I doubt that the best fit for Avatar/Pandora was DAK, and vice versa. That park really needs another E-ticket to draw crowds, especially in the evening hours. Pandora at night should be nothing short of amazing and when I see it for the first time I expect my jaw to drop. I am really looking forward to it.

That being said, if my name is Bob Iger, I'm going to be looking for something to counter HP/Universal. Does Avatar have a big fan base? Without a doubt, but when you look at the age group it simply doesn't compare to Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels and cartoons, they help create a fan base that spans from 8 to 60. A group that large means more tickets and merchandize to sell, and that is the end game. I would pit Star Wars against Harry Potter all day every day before I considered Avatar. I just think Star Wars will, over time, be a bigger crowd draw.

It would be a challenge to fit a new land into DHS. The ABC Soundstage and Backlot Express would both need a refurb to match the new theme. After that the only other logical place to go is Indiana Jones. I really don't want that to go, but it would make sense, especially considering how old the show is. I don't deny that all of this is a hard sell, but it can't be much more than Avatar.

...unfortunately, my name isn't Bob Iger.

Expanding the Star Wars presense in DHS is such a obvious choice that I have to think there is a good reason it hasn't happened.

Dan

 

[DCTooTall]

I don't doubt that the Imagineers will be able to create a wonderfully immersive environment. Nor do I doubt that the best fit for Avatar/Pandora was DAK, and vice versa. That park really needs another E-ticket to draw crowds, especially in the evening hours. Pandora at night should be nothing short of amazing and when I see it for the first time I expect my jaw to drop. I am really looking forward to it.

That being said, if my name is Bob Iger, I'm going to be looking for something to counter HP/Universal. Does Avatar have a big fan base? Without a doubt, but when you look at the age group it simply doesn't compare to Star Wars. Say what you will about the prequels and cartoons, they help create a fan base that spans from 8 to 60. A group that large means more tickets and merchandize to sell, and that is the end game. I would pit Star Wars against Harry Potter all day every day before I considered Avatar. I just think Star Wars will, over time, be a bigger crowd draw.

It would be a challenge to fit a new land into DHS. The ABC Soundstage and Backlot Express would both need a refurb to match the new theme. After that the only other logical place to go is Indiana Jones. I really don't want that to go, but it would make sense, especially considering how old the show is. I don't deny that all of this is a hard sell, but it can't be much more than Avatar.

...unfortunately, my name isn't Bob Iger.

Expanding the Star Wars presense in DHS is such a obvious choice that I have to think there is a good reason it hasn't happened.

Dan

I'd be willing to put good money on one of the biggest reasons being named Lucas.

Between his desire for control and probably his financial demands, Disney probably came to a decision that it just wasn't worth the money or effort. (Even if star Wars increased crowds by 20%, if Lucas demanded 40% of total proceeds it wouldn't make financial sense to take the deal.) It's one thing to upgrade an existing attraction. It's another to build out an entire land.

The perceived value of Star Wars, and in turn, the leverage and power George Lucas would have in negotiating with Disney, has drastically increased since they started putting Together the original Star Tours in 1986.

 

[johnGorski]

It would be a challenge to fit a new land into DHS. The ABC Soundstage and Backlot Express would both need a refurb to match the new theme. After that the only other logical place to go is Indiana Jones. I really don't want that to go, but it would make sense, especially considering how old the show is. I don't deny that all of this is a hard sell, but it can't be much more than Avatar.

...unfortunately, my name isn't Bob Iger.

There is plenty of land "employee parking lot" behind Indy and star tours to create a "lucas land" As the other posted stated with the demands of Lucas himself it would a whole new theme area is far far away. I am sure it has been brought up many times behind closed doors.

 

[DCTooTall]

There is plenty of land "employee parking lot" behind Indy and star tours to create a "lucas land" As the other posted stated with the demands of Lucas himself it would a whole new theme area is far far away. I am sure it has been brought up many times behind closed doors.

As I mentioned in another thread though, The problems with utilizing that land however are 2 fold. 1. You'd then have to find someplace for cast to park. There really isn't anymore room in that lot to move cast member parking and still have enough for guests.... and the parking lot is surrounded by conservation land which could make expanding the parking lot troublesome.

2. You would need to worry about the main entrance drive which comes in that direction.