Canadian Drivers, AWD? Gimmick, Good to have, Must have?

For today I agree, but I expect harsher weather here in the years to come which is why I wanted the opinion of folks that are already living my worst case weather scenario.

Not sure that even if harsher DC winters turn out to be a reality that it will necessarily equate to the Canadian experience you're asking about. First of all Canada is quite large and winters vary depending on the region. Here in Detroit metro I actually live north of (part of) Canada. Windsor, Ontario has essentially the same winters as I do. Parts of northern Michigan have more extreme winters than Toronto, Windsor or Detroit. Listening to the various posters here who hail from the Winnipeg area it seems their winters are much more similar to what a great deal of Minnesota experiences.

What I can tell you is I've driven through decades of SE Michigan winters without the necessity for 4WD, AWD or even snow tires. Personally I don't see it extremely likely that DC's winters are going to eclipse those of SE Michigan during the lifespan of your next vehicle purchase and become equivalent to that of Minnesota or Winnipeg on a routine basis.
 
The biggest difference with stopping is the transmission. Manual transmission I don't even use the brakes to stop. I downshift as I see a stop up ahead and coast to the stop. Obviously this doesn't work with panic stops, but with a manual, you have a positive clamped connection between the engine and transmission. With slushboxes, it is fluid and you don't get hardly any of the benefit of compression braking.

My priority list for winter driving is manual trans first, then snow tires, then true 4WD, then AWD, then the sensing automatic AWD.

I also greatly prefer no stability control. It has prevented me from doing what I need to do to weight transfer to get the car oriented how I want or get out of a slippery situation. Traction control I'm on the fence about. Sometimes I can't get out of my place because the traction control cuts power down to nothing and I stall the car. Anti-lock brakes have come a very long way. Use to hate them because they activated at every little thing. Now you don't notice them at all and I can actually threshold brake my car without the ABS activating getting the most from the brakes rather than my car just letting the brakes go because it thinks it's too slippery out.

Actually, before all that, the number 1 factor that determines how the car drives in the snow/ice is the driver's skill level. If all you are is a pedal masher and wheel spinner, you shouldn't be driving in snow, IMO rather than flooding the cars with bandaids to overcome the lack of skills.

:confused: The only thing I think I can agree with is that the number one factor in ice/snow is the driver. Sorry, but the rest doesn't make sense.

The transmission is not the biggest difference with stopping. Not even vaguely close. Tires are most important, followed by the braking system. The transmission itself is of minimal value. Yes, you can get some compression braking, but passenger cars/trucks don't have jake brakes, so the compression braking you get is mild at best. Not to mention that unless you know how to rev match really well, or ride the clutch hard (which is murder on it), you leave open the very real possibility of inducing wheel hop/chatter which leads to loss of traction and control. In fact, if you want compression braking, you're FAR better off with an automatic. They all have the ability to be "forced" into a gear, like a manual, and they'll do a much better job of making that gear change smooth, using their torque converter (or whatever system it uses).

Stability control is also far superior to any driver on the street in controlling the car in a slippery situation. You're not getting much weight transfer in slippery situations anyhow. Weight transfer is really more of a racing thing than street driving. Stability control can apply the brakes to an individual wheel, or possibly cut/apply power to an individual wheel. You can't do that from inside the car. You don't have to like stability control, but it's far superior than trying to do it yourself in a slippery situation. If you're trying to use weight transfer to "orient how you want", then that means you're sliding around in a slippery situation...not a good thing.

With ABS, if you're still "threshold braking", you're doing it wrong. Stomp on the pedal. ABS will do a far better job than you ever can, in any situation. Even the early adoptions of ABS were better than nothing, they've just gotten more and more sophisticated. If the brakes say it's slippery out, they're right. ABS does threshold braking, much better than you or I ever can dream of.

I respect that you like your old fashion stuff. I'm a car guy too, I love nothing more than driving and racing. But there's no way around it. Some of the technology in today's cars do a far better job than any human can.
 
Love our AWD Chevy Equinox here in PA. Best car for snow I've ever had (previous cars were all FWD sedans). Note, at least in my case, we do not have a select system. It's AWD all the time.
 
With ABS, if you're still "threshold braking", you're doing it wrong. Stomp on the pedal. ABS will do a far better job than you ever can, in any situation. Even the early adoptions of ABS were better than nothing, they've just gotten more and more sophisticated. If the brakes say it's slippery out, they're right.

What I've been told, what I've witnessed as a passenger and what I've experienced as a driver with ABS is not to stomp on them in a slick situation, but to steadily press down on the pedal -- unlike the pumping the pedal we were taught back in the day before ABS was the norm. Whenever I've experienced a stomp situation the vehicle was very challenging to bring under control on slick roads. Whenever I've experienced the steady pressure on the pedal the vehicle responded with much more control. I'm talking experiencing this as driver and passenger over the years. Is stomping on the pedal really effective with ABS? (Obviously any braking system is going to have difficulty if a very sudden, very unexpected slick situation occurred at speed with a sudden need to stop on a dime. That's not what I'm suggesting.)
 


What I've been told, what I've witnessed as a passenger and what I've experienced as a driver with ABS is not to stomp on them in a slick situation, but to steadily press down on the pedal -- unlike the pumping the pedal we were taught back in the day before ABS was the norm. Whenever I've experienced a stomp situation the vehicle was very challenging to bring under control on slick roads. Whenever I've experienced the steady pressure on the pedal the vehicle responded with much more control. I'm talking experiencing this as driver and passenger over the years. Is stomping on the pedal really effective with ABS? (Obviously any braking system is going to have difficulty if a very sudden, very unexpected slick situation occurred at speed with a sudden need to stop on a dime. That's not what I'm suggesting.)

Good point in that we should probably level set so that we're not talking apples and oranges. In normal driving, say for instance just coming up to a red light on dry roads and casually stopping, no you don't stomp the brakes. Same with "normal" driving in snow/rain. If you just want to slowly come to a stop, yes you start with normal "gentle" pressure and increase as necessary. What I'm referring to is panic braking, emergency stopping or even stopping with anything more than moderate pressure in snow. If you need to stop as fast as humanly possible, stomp the pedal....rain, snow or sun. Even in snowy conditions, ABS may come on even if for a fraction of a second, to help control lock up and let you stop faster. You just won't really notice. It also acts as a function of stability control (hence the improvements in ABS) in that it can control each wheel individually and help you stay straight. "Threshold braking" has been replaced by "Stomp and steer", it works far, far better.
 
Good point in that we should probably level set so that we're not talking apples and oranges. In normal driving, say for instance just coming up to a red light on dry roads and casually stopping, no you don't stomp the brakes. Same with "normal" driving in snow/rain. If you just want to slowly come to a stop, yes you start with normal "gentle" pressure and increase as necessary. What I'm referring to is panic braking, emergency stopping or even stopping with anything more than moderate pressure in snow. If you need to stop as fast as humanly possible, stomp the pedal....rain, snow or sun. Even in snowy conditions, ABS may come on even if for a fraction of a second, to help control lock up and let you stop faster. You just won't really notice. It also acts as a function of stability control (hence the improvements in ABS) in that it can control each wheel individually and help you stay straight. "Threshold braking" has been replaced by "Stomp and steer", it works far, far better.

That's interesting. My experience with quick stops on slick roads with ABS has always been much more controlled with the steady pressure and the vehicle has always tended to swerve more if the pedal is stomped.

To be fully clear, when I've experienced this behind the wheel myself it may be important that my vehicle is now over ten years old and might not have the improvements in ABS you're talking about. (Yep, I know I'm one of those diehards who hangs onto my car as long as it's running great and the wheels haven't fallen off. Most people I know don't like that idea, but it works for me.)
 
We had about three inches of snow on the road the other day, and DD had to go to an early morning clinical in her FWD car. She told me when she made a turn, the rear of the car slid sideways. I told her she was likely going too fast for those conditions, then. (And actually, a cinder block in the trunk probably wouldn't be a bad idea. DH used to use them in his 4WD pickups.)

My own story. We live in New England. Winters can be harsh. I didn't know my now-DH - always a Jeep man - during the Blizzard of '78, which was one of our worst ever, but he, along with other Jeep/4WD owners, was recruited then by the police to drive nurses and doctors to their local hospital for several days as there was no other way to get them there. There weren't a lot of 4WD vehicles around then; certainly not nearly as many as there are now.

When I became a nurse/essential employee in the 80s it made sense for me to get a Jeep as well, so I did. (And 4WD back then was really just a part time function on most Jeep vehicles; in other words, you had to either be in deep snow or sand or something in order for it to drive right as all four wheels spun at the same time, there was no slip differential if I'm saying that right in which the wheels could spin individually, like there is now.) I knew I had to get to work in the snow, regardless of the time of day or night, etc. (And proud to say that I have never missed work for a snow day, ever.) I've driven either a Jeep or an AWD van (T&C when my kids were little) or crossover since, and that's all I will buy. There have been times I've driven to work in the evening for an overnight shift where the highways hadn't been plowed yet. One ride, when I was pregnant with my twins (during the April 1st storm if anyone from NE remembers that) was the hairiest ever when there was very poor visibility and I was the only one on the road. That got pretty scary because I couldn't even tell where the bridge abutments were. But I inched along slowly and made it to work so someone else could go home.

I agree I've also seen plenty of 4WD/AWD vehicles off in the ditch and I usually chuckle a bit (as long as nobody's seriously hurt, obviously). I've always chalked that up primarily to user error. As others have mentioned here (and admittedly I only scanned responses), using 4WD or AWD doesn't mean you get to drive like a jerk. You still have to drive slowly, deliberately and safely. I just bought an AWD crossover (which I've had before in a different make and model) and I like it but it still does not drive as well as my Jeep in the snow, IMO. Jeeps are still very popular here for a reason (even though they pretty much get trashed here on the Dis!).
 


We live in Colorado -have one FWD, one AWD and one 4WD rig. All seasons radials on FWD and AWD and mud and snows on the 4WD. In all honestly we drive the FWD rig most often and it does just fine although I like the handling of the AWD vehicle better and its newer so it has more 'smart' safety features. I think knowing how to drive in crap weather superceeds what ever type of drive train your vehicle has. The number one rule-AWD and 4WD equal four wheel go and not 4 wheel stop. The majority of vehicles that we see in slide offs here are by people transferred here by the military who don't understand that and so their vehicle suffers from operator malfunction. Day to day front wheel and common sense seem to get us through most weather situations.
 
We've done it both ways over the years, it's really pretty common here. There are some tire shops that will even store your other tires, for a fee, so you don't have to haul them back and forth. Right now I'm in a new vehicle I got a few months ago and I didn't get winter tires at the onset of the season. I thought I could just "deal" for a single winter but I regret it almost every day. :scared:
 
Actually, before all that, the number 1 factor that determines how the car drives in the snow/ice is the driver's skill level. If all you are is a pedal masher and wheel spinner, you shouldn't be driving in snow, IMO rather than flooding the cars with bandaids to overcome the lack of skills.

Have you seen the Ford commercial where they are touting the electronic nanny on their mommy-mobile to people who don't know how to use their mirrors properly? Makes me sad.
 
We’ve had 8 measurable snowfalls here this year that I’ve driven in. I would say AWD (or 4WD) was “necessary” for 2 of them. I have a 4WD truck with “severe weather” rated tires. Not true “Winter” tires, but way better than typical “all season” tires. I used my 4WD in 6 of the 8 snows, though I could have survived without it all but 2 of them. The extra traction was helpful though, even if not always “critical”.
 
Haven’t read all the replies but make sure you take hills into account. AWD is super helpful going up icy hills.

I have the AWD sienna with studded snowtires. We live and drove in the mountains. It also helps when your car is heavy which the Sienna is. My car is like a tank getting around but the one thing it lacks is clearance. I like being lower to the ground though and this less likely to roll.

Been driving in snowy mountain conditions my entire life.

Also want to throw in that not all AWD systems are created equal. The Sienna’s is only OK. But it’s good enough.
 
All season tires are crap in the snow. All weather tires that are rated M&S with the little mountain and snowflake symbol are good.
 

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