Continued Cut Theme Park Hours

[padisneyfan]

I almost hate to get in this discussion, but having just returned from WDW on 6/27 I want to share that during my stay hours in the MK were extended on 6/24 until midnight and 6/25 until 11pm because of the expected increased crowds. Apparently, it was crowded in MK on 6/24 during the daytime (but that was a Monday and MK is always crowded on Monday), however we went over in the evening on both 6/24 and 6/25 after the rain stopped and walked onto all the rides. As stated before certain rides in future world in EPCOT were open till 9pm and MGM RRC and TT were open until 10:30pm along with Fantasmic at 9pm and 10:30pm. Having just returned from 7 days, the crowds are down and the current times in the parks seem to be accomdating the people who are there. We usually go a week earlier and I was concerned that because of the decreased park hours the parks would be really crowded, but I just didn't find this to be a problem. So I really can't complain about the park hours.

 

[d-r]

No offense is taken - DVC -Landbaron - we just have different opinions about it. While we do not go to WD during the summers now, many a summer night did both DR and I spend at MK. We never noticed there being a problem - if it was crowded or on a weekend the hours were extended or open late automatically and now as adults - I guess outside of the occasional e-night - after 10pm we generally go to bed. My point is that not everyone spends everynight at MK - there are many other options of places to go in the evenings - whether or not they appeal to you is another story, but WDW can't possibly make everyone happy.

Quite the contrary to what some people may think - neither DR nor myself think that WDW can do no wrong. Going during the off seasons park hours can drive us nuts - mostly because ticket prices are the same, but that's the way things go. I do however think its relevant to look at what other companies within the same industry are doing - we would with any other industry.

Ultimately it boils down to choosing whether or not to go. If the crowds are that unbearable and it makes the evenings so unpleasant and you have let you concerns be known directly to WDW with no response to your approval - you don't have to go.

Melissa

 

[manning]

I have been going to WDW since early 1972, and as remember the parks stayed open late in good times and bad. That is except since recently.

Something has changed. All of a sudden penny pinching. That is not a good sign.

 

[Another Voice]

Enron and Worldcom went under because it gave its customers too much? I missed that explanation on CNBC.

Late closings and slow closings have been a feature at the parks since they opened. There’s really nothing new to that practice. But the fact that WDW seems to have to resort to that really does indicate the demand for the parks is greater than the hours they are willing to post.

And I think the entire issue would be different if the hour cutbacks were really the result of attendance levels at the parks. But they’re not. For the last five years The Company has relied more and more on the parks to generate ever greater amounts of money to offset the problems with the rest of the company. With growth and price hikes at the parks no longer possible, it’s now a matter of profit margin: reduce costs against the same amount of revenue.

If anyone can remember back to the letter Eisner sent out before the annual report, he talked about all the cutbacks in response to 9/11. And he also mentioned that he expected even greater benefits once the parks “returned to normal” because many of those cuts would not be restored.

We’re in the middle of that right now.

P.S. – How long do you think it would take before some one would post “it’s not like I go to Animal Kingdom every day of trip, so I don’t mind if it’s closed on Wednesday”?

P.S.S. - If Disney is supposed to be so responsive to crowds these days, do you think they reopen 'Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea' if a whole bunch of us showed up and stood in line?

 

[Another Voice]

The more important question is will Disney really listen if a whole bunch of people don’t go to WDW anymore.

That’s certainly the situation at California Adventure, yet The Company’s main response is simply more cutbacks. If attendance at WDW continues to decline – who’s to say that simply won’t trigger deeper cuts?

 

[Figmentrocks]

AV, Exactly.

Eeyore, Enron and Worldcom didn't have their problems because of the great things that they did for the consumer... Far from it.. More like corporate executives taking hundreds of millions of dollars EARNED by the company from the consumer and pocketing that money and others taking out minimal interest loans. I don't understand your analogy. Cooked numbers, etc, all out-of-greed.

Bashing Disney and not IoA.. That's not what I did.. Yes, we've been to IoA and Universal many times since February, and they were doing the same thing as Disney, however, Universal has been losing money on their property and the loss of attendence really hurt them a lot harder money-wise. Disney was hit with a partial loss of business and was still reaping huge profits. However, in the months since February there have been major changes at Universal with expanded hours, productions, and so-forth with their new President. Closed dining spots are not in the same league as closed attractions, though. Disney has been doing plenty of this, well with both, actually. We love going to Disney, but I find that it's very fair to point out the truth about their business practicies. That's not bashing. Just because you're loyal to a political party doesn't mean that you have to going lock and step with every position of their party, same deal here.

Eeyore, I also understand that people enjoy going to Disney, that would seem like a no-brainer, but many people are very loyal to the company because of Walt Disney and will give the company the benefit of the doubt all these years later. That's the truth, I've seen it in my own family.

The point that AV and that I've been attempting to make is that Disney is using current events as an excuse, but that is not why Disney is doing this. These are LONG-TERM changes that they are doing to add to their bottom-line. I guess we should all cry the night away when this is a company that earns $260 million in PROFIT each quarter on the theme parks.

AV, what we assumed was that these changes were coming anyways and the company had the perfect excuse put into their laps. Would that be a fair assessment?

When business slumps, companies usually invest in bringing customers in, not taking away from them. If any of you have been to DCA, you might see why some of us really have a new perspective on the company.

There isn't much more to say, except that when you visit in a few years, the MK is incredibly busy at 10 PM, and you then go "Why are they closing this early?", remember when and why they supposedly reduced hours, and what they were really doing. This is a company that only takes, not gives... They'll give $1 million dollars to open an education center down here in Central Florida, but ONLY if a half-cent sales tax increase occurs in Nov. Why? The truth is that their property rates will be slashed. So nice to see that they care so much, but only if something better happens for them. No sales tax increase and lower property rates, no money for the center. Nice folks, huh?

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Eeyore2U


Should Disney operate like Enron or Worldcom? Should they give and give put themself out of business?

HA !!!

Wow these two Company’s problems could not be further apart from what Disney is doing if they tried. The only common thing they share within each other are neither of them followed GAP and Anderson did some work for WorldCom as well. What exactly do you think that Enron or WorldCom was giving to their Customers? There was no giving by these two companies. Disney is not giving us anything either. I seem to remember paying a higher price every year for less attractions, less onsite perks and less operating hours. If this is what you mean by giving then yeah they are "giving" it to us all right.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I seem to remeber paying higher prices every year for less attractions...

A little nitpicking, but, WDW did not raise prices this year and they were the only Orlando theme park not to do so..

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate

A little nitpicking, but, WDW did not raise prices this year and they were the only Orlando theme park not to do so..

I guess we will all start to qualify our statements. Should I say a trend of higher prices over several years?

Of course there are more attractions now after AK opened then there were before. Heck there are more attractions now then when WDW was still swampland and orange groves.

I'm sure that Universal raised prices as well...but seems like I'm going to be paying less this year for my tickets then we did in 1999. Maybe raised them but are giving better discounts.

 

[raidermatt]

I'm sure that Universal raised prices as well...but seems like I'm going to be paying less this year for my tickets then we did in 1999. Maybe raised them but are giving better discounts.

Universal discounts because they have to. They are not a benevolent non-profit organization that just feels like collecting fewer dollars. They need to charge the discounts they do because if they didn't, they'd be lucky to break 5 million in attendance. Besides, I thought Disney was supposed to set its own standard, not try to match others on price?

Figmentrocks- Look, I'm not going to say that I wouldn't be happier if hours were longer. But this thread was started with a comparison to last year's attendance and a claim that the cut in hours from last year far surpassed the attendance drop. That is simply not true. Yes, the same points about attendance from 3+ years ago can be made, and that's fine. But they do not apply to a 2002 vs 2001 comparison.

When business slumps, companies usually invest in bringing customers in, not taking away from them.

This is simply not true. Companies take different strategies, but "re-trenching" and "belt-tightening" are far more common than increasing investment. When people just refuse to get on airplanes for 3-4 months, or get laid off, they are not going to WDW. Offering a discount, or keeping the parks open until 1am will do very little to change that.

AV, 2002 hours are in line with pre 9/11 hours, assuming that attendance is still off by 6%, or even 2%. The letter you referenced also specifically pointed out that some of the cuts would not be sustainable and would be returned when attendance improved. There was nothing about which cuts would stay or go, but the numbers do not support your statement that hours are one that is staying. Compared to 3+ years ago, yes, but you specifically used 9/11 and that is not yet supported with respect to hours.

That’s certainly the situation at California Adventure, yet The Company’s main response is simply more cutbacks. If attendance at WDW continues to decline – who’s to say that simply won’t trigger deeper cuts?

Very good point. I think you could throw in AK as well, though to a lesser extent. Plans were scaled back or completely cut when attendance was less than anticipated.



Again, to clarify, I am not saying that keeping the parks open less than in 1999 is a good strategy, or fits with the philosophy Disney should be operating under. But using inaccurate info to support the position does not further the cause.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by raidermatt


Universal discounts because they have to. They are not a benevolent non-profit organization that just feels like collecting fewer dollars. They need to charge the discounts they do because if they didn't, they'd be lucky to break 5 million in attendance. Besides, I thought Disney was supposed to set its own standard, not try to match others on price?

Not reallly my quote you used there about Disney standards..nore did I make the comparsion with Universal to start with. However Universal prices for the guest are less then they were in 1999 and they have not cut back on attractions and are in the process of adding new attractions as well. They also have the same if not better onsite perks as Disney. So seems in this case Universal is setting the standard or at least adhearing to it. But alas many people will throw the "magic" in your face everytime you do any comparsion with Universal.

 

[Another Voice]

Mr. Raidermatt, what I’m saying is that the hour cuts have nothing to do with the response from 9/11 but are part of a longer and more significant trend.

The Company is cutting operations regardless of attendance.

Margins are driving the hours. The point of Eisner’s letter was to expand that concept to the investors – cuts made by this temporary downturn will be kept to generate greater profits later. Closing down a hotel when you’re not selling rooms is not really a cut – those rooms weren’t going to sold anyway. But reducing hours of operations even though people have already bought tickets is a cut.

The fact that this year’s hours are only slightly less than last years – for the Magic Kingdom only I might add – only points to the fact that the “temporary” cuts aren’t. If the attendance is off so much, why haven’t hours been cut even more? And why are people somehow willing to brave air travel to get to the Magic Kingdom, but are too scarred to fly to the Animal Kingdom?

And the cuts at DCA and AK being justified by their attendance levels, yes there are to a degree. My concern is that cuts are Disney’s only response to those two troubled places. Would not a smarter business move to be fixing those places so that they can live up to their potential, rather than hacking them down to the guests’ lowered expectations?

 

[raidermatt]

However Universal prices for the guest are less then they were in 1999...

Again, due to discounts that are only offered out of necessity. The poor suckers who aren't shrewd enough to find discounts pay more. Single day tickets are higher than WDW.

...they have not cut back on attractions and are in the process of adding new attractions as well.

WDW is opening two new attractions next year.

They also have the same if not better onsite perks as Disney.

Again, because of bottom-line financial motivation. The main perk sited is FOTL, which is offered out of necessity, and because the attraction:guest room ratio is much smaller at Universal.

So seems in this case Universal is setting the standard or at least adhearing to it.

Low prices and discounts set a standard alright, but it has little to do with quality entertainment.

But alas many people will throw the "magic" in your face everytime you do any comparsion with Universal.

Maybe, but I didn't. I was just pointing out the reality of how "un-magical" those discounts are.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by raidermatt


The poor suckers who aren't shrewd enough to find discounts pay more. Single day tickets are higher than WDW.

A point I think I brought up in another post. But I don't think that all discounts are out of need.

WDW is opening two new attractions next year.

Now what will the quality of those be? Still up in the air I guess at this point. I guess Universal could throw the next two attractions in the toliet to match Disney if they wanted to.

Again, because of bottom-line financial motivation. The main perk sited is FOTL, which is offered out of necessity, and because the attraction:guest room ratio is much smaller at Universal.

And what is Disney's response to lower Finanicals?? Remvoe the onsite perks and hours and charge the same price? I'll take Universal's ideas over Disney's

Low prices and discounts set a standard alright, but it has little to do with quality entertainment.

Ok so your not a fan of Universal? Fine ... I'll say that you just don't get the "French Magic".

 

[raidermatt]

AV, maybe I'm following the Pirate's lead and nitpicking, however...

I remember the margins reference, and it was very vague. It could have been interpreted to mean just what you said, or it could have meant that since part of what was cut was "fat", it wasn't coming back. It didn't differentiate between hours, room closures, or the number of maintenance workers on staff.

The point is, any interpretation of what it really meant is so subjective there isn't much point. We just have to look at what actually happens.

I honestly can't say what % of the shows have comeback. The answer to that (which somebody probably has) would be key.

You asked this question: "If the attendance is off so much, why haven’t hours been cut even more?" I think this proves the point that we don't yet know if the hours cut from last year will be returned or not. If there were plans to slash hours by x% anyway, wouldn't 9/11 have been used as an excuse to cut them even more? Yet the cuts have for the most part coincided with attendance estimates. As attendance has creeped closer to 2001 levels, so have the hours.

Yes, the hours being cut at MK are less than at the other three parks. I did a quick estimate, and got about 6% at MGM, 10% at AK, and 17% at Epcot, though that counted FW as being closed at 7pm, which isn't really true since TT, SE, HISTA and I think Innoventions remain open. Regardless, when factored in with MK's cuts, it comes out to about 8%, slightly more than the 6% attendance drop. However, that assumes no changes to hours during July. Any adds (or cuts) would change that %.

Now, again, I'm not saying I support mgmt's overall philosophy, and specifically the reduction in hours from 3+ years ago. My point (and maybe it is just nitpicking), is that when bringing these issues out in the open, I feel we need to stop crying wolf everytime there is an announcement or change. There are enough concrete changes that can't be explained away, that we shouldn't have to pull up hour cuts that pretty much fall in-line with what we'd expect the company to do given current attendance.

I look at it as if we were trying to make these points to somebody who actually had some authority to make some change, but needed to be convinced with concrete facts. Any potential symptom that can only be supported with speculation hurts our credibility.

And the cuts at DCA and AK being justified by their attendance levels, yes there are to a degree. My concern is that cuts are Disney’s only response to those two troubled places. Would not a smarter business move to be fixing those places so that they can live up to their potential, rather than hacking them down to the guests’ lowered expectations?

This, I agree with completely, though I see adding ToT to DCA as being a significant move. I know, the indications you've heard are that its watered down, and I agree that is a mistake. Its just that by nature, I have a hard time taking that as fact just yet. Bugtown? We'll see. Admittedly, I would prefer to see more of these potentially significant moves being made. (I consider the concerts to be a nice little move, but only a drop in the bucket).

 

[All Aboard]

Epcot, though that counted FW as being closed at 7pm, which isn't really true since TT, SE, HISTA and I think Innoventions remain open.

I wondering what peoples' thoughts are on this. Was this the better PR move for Disney? Show the closing time as 7pm, but keep the more popular attractions open until 9. Or, show the closing time as 9 but list some of the attractions as having limited operating hours?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Lets not forget the most recent updates from WDW have Disney drastically increasing hours on demand (I believe I read 12,11 & 11 in one week alone).

So this may show us that the hours of the future will be a 'game time decision'. I know this doesn't help vacation planners & the potential for let down certainly exists, but Landbaron if during your July visit, its unexpectedly busy & Disney opens the MK to midnight two or thee times will the effect be magical or dismay?

cool:

 

[manning]

Universal is, I think, making the right move. Yes, they have raised prices, but they are also bringing their operations back. When you cut hours and not prices it is a price increase. Disney just hopes you don't catch on. Also, when Disney is closed, where else do you go. I'm sure Universal folks have asked that question.

As I said before, prior to the last couple of years, Disney stayed open late in the summers. Now they close earlier and on certain nights they have E-night. another price increase.

Hour cuts plus E-nights equals how many price increases?

And the thing that's driving it is executive stock options and pay. You pay and they play.

Gee, hope I know what I'm talking about or I'm going to look silly.

 

[Peter Pirate]

raidermatt already pointed out that Disney's hours were on track to be minimally down this year from last and that didn't take into account the extra hours that have now been reported for June. So I'd say Disney did not raise their prices, US & SW did and also cut their hours...

 

[EUROPA]

I think that AV pointed out as well what the hours were down compared to two years ago....