DEBATE: They’ve successfully trained us to “settle”

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. What I really want is agreement from all Disney fans, a grassroots movement that threatens the Boards of Directors, Ei$ner's exit interview convened as soon as possible and someone in his place that ‘gets it’!! But as someone once said: You can’t always get what you want!!

But in this case I get what I need! Disagreement!!! So, on guard!

Good stuff, and boy were you getting used to having things a certain way. Well, anyway, that is where I begin to lose you.

I don’t see why that would lose you! Sure, we were used to getting good stuff. It was the way Disney did business. It is what I fell in love with.

And don’t forget my friend, that I left out the first twenty years of Disneyland!!! Even more impressive ‘stuff’ was handed out then. Especially when you consider the shoestring budget that they had to live on!!

I am also curious as to why you did not include a paragraph that pictures a Disney of 10 years ago

I thought by now you would know me better. The slippery slope was already in place ten years ago. It’s just that the slide wasn’t going as fast as it is today.

Full blown stuff, WOWing, big ideas, etc. Morocco, please.

I assume the “please” was sarcastic. So! Morocco doesn’t WOW you, eh? It did me! A whole country, rich in texture and theme. Something added, an entire country, within a couple years of opening!! Not bad! And then Norway (which I forgot in my post) complete with ride and movie!! WOW! And again, within a couple years!

Tell me, what have they done since then? Ooooh!! Ooooh!! I can answer that!! NOTHING!!!!

Furthermore, many of those big ideas never happened (hmmmm - kind of like BK, huh?)

Oh, my friend!! I could tell you blood curdling tales of ‘broken promises, even under Walt’s administration. It has always happened. That’s one of the main reasons for this tread. To differentiate between the specific (BK) and the general (anything else as wonderful and Disney ‘Magical”).

In addition, there was no neglect of the MK.

I’m afraid you are simply wrong. We lost quite a bit of ground. Remember 20K? Or how about the inception of E-Tickets!! Now that’s quite a concept! What about CoP? Timekeeper? Skyway? That beautiful bit of landscaping next to Space Mountain filled to the brim with pay-for-play video games? Those lost hours that I’m always harping on? And I’m sure there are hundreds of other items that I can’t recall as fast as I am typing. OH! I just thought of another!!! How about that infamous - Mickey head butter!!!

No! I really think it was a net loss, especially when you consider the deferred maintenance and general poor long-term planning.

You have a DTD expansion incuding Cirque, Disney Quest, the West Side, more shopping

I was going to ignore this, but….

Cirque?!?!? Cirque?!?!? You’ve got to be kidding!!! Disney hired a show just as any other city or entity could!! I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s just NOT Disney!! Disney Quest was a valiant effort, I think, but I’m really not sure. All I know, positively, is that it failed. And the West Side!!!! Surely you jest, my good man!!! Have you been to the Mall of America? Or in Chicago, Woodfield Shopping Center, or any other good sized mall in the country? Why on earth would I want THAT in my Disney? Do you really want it in yours?

I’ll give you the water parks and DVC. But to be honest I’ve heard that Ei$ner hated Blizzard Beach because of the cost. Just a rumor, but very telling if true!!

First off, as you point out, it's origins were an Epcot pavillion. Could they really turn a pavillion into a park the size of MK or Epcot?

Absolutely!!! You do it right – or – you don’t do it at all!!! (how many times do I have to say that?!?!?! )

In MGM and AK I believe the concepts are smaller and more focused.

WHAT!!!!??? More focused than EPCOT??? You’ve got to be kidding!!! And just because they are focused (which in the case of MGM they clearly are NOT) why build small?

I completely disagree with the 'size as part of the standard' concept.

Maybe you like paying full price for something half done, but I don’t!!

Change in philosophy is a big theme for many, and I don't think anyone has yet argued that there hasn't been some change in philosophy, with both good and bad motivation.

PLEASE, PLEASE!!! Show my that ‘something’ that was created using the changed philosophy!! Please. I really want to know what piece of ‘magic’ was created by something other than Walt’s way of doing things. Of the “old” philosophy.

You like to use analogies. I like that about you. Cause, so do I!!!

It is like filet mignon is all you ever eat. A new chef takes over the joint and likes to offer a New York strip. "My, my - I won't eat NY strip" says the Baron. Well, guess what, NY strip has a heck of a lot more flavor.

No!! Not at all!! We’ve been eclectic in our dining, but it has all been haute cuisine!! Very fine foods, with subtle spices, gentle herbs that tickle and delight the tongue and palette. And the new chef steps in and starts serving frozen TV dinners, but nicely decorated!! I’m afraid that it’s easily detectable, barely eatable and a little shocking to the system.



Peter:

OK! That's more like it...I'm glad you see my point.

Peter!! Again, you just crack me up!!!

 

[Lesley]

AK is not yet a work of art in and of itself....it *has* plenty of art....but is not yet a cohesive work as a park.

An art museum is not necessarily art.....

 

[DisneyKidds]

I do like to give people at least what they need .

Yes, Lord Baron, I bow to you on the 'game of give and take'. I will always lose that battle as you are well informed and well spoken, as are many others here. Lest I reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes .

Yes, if you look at all the revenue and expenses that are the changes at WDW over the years, perhaps we have a net loss on paper. But the WDW I love is about more than paper losses. I thought that was the point of your thread. It is not about E tickets, what is added (whew!, made sure I didn't use the G word ) or what is taken away - it is about the 'experience'. While I was sucked into the 'game of give and take' (BTW, I find Magic in MGM and AK, it's ok that you don't. You find Magic in Morocco, it's ok that I don't) that isn't what I intended to be the focus of my post, or you yours. I still maintain that change is a constant in life. I also maintain that not all changes are bad - although many are. But bottom line you have to look at the 'experience', as you pointed out. That is still there, and even you can't deny it .

Humor me, good Baron. Help us Benchmark the Disney Magic. Step outside the 'game of give and take' and come clean on what makes the Magic for you. Does that Magic transcend the takeaways? If it does, is it just possible that all the changes in philosophy, all the things 'done wrong', all the take-aways don't amount to a hill of beans in this WDW?

p.s.

Good stuff, and boy were you getting used to having things a certain way.

That may be what you had become accustomed to, but it doesn't mean doing something else is wrong.

I see a big part of the problem not that some people expect 'more', but they expect things a 'certain way'.

I would use a different "S" word than you.

I was attempting to go for an overgrown Garden path here . I still maintain that to say if a park isn't MK or Epcot it is 'half done' only clouds one's judgement. And thanks for getting my sarcasm on Morocco - see, we are communicating better .

BTW, while I am not the seasoned traveller and elder statesman that you are, I have eaten in some pretty fine establishments and have yet to be served Swanson chopped steak at WDW. You know what, I hated it at first when the Asian Trio became the new trend (philosophy if you will) in so many restaurants a number of years back. But you know, it lead to some pretty haute cuisine of its own and now I don't mind it mixed in with my classic French, old world Italian, or basic American fare.

Leslie - even if you view AK as an art museum, art is still part of the equation. It is not just a big empty building with big empty walls for people to congregate in. Disney wanted to give us art, not just train us to stand around in a big empty building.

 

[Peter Pirate]

First off thanks to Landbaron & Disneykidds in recognizing (and adding) the humor oft lost in these discussions. This is after all, done in fun, right?...And as you know, my jokes will keep on coming whether anyone thinks they're funny or not...

As to the subject, again Landbaron you are just too preoccupied with the negative. We all understand and feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to totally strip away the enjoyment of the Parks?

The WDW experience is the whole package and I feel bad for some unsuspectig DIS posters who come here all happy with Disney and thrilled about their upcoming trip and leave here all depressed, mad at Disney and ready to hang Eisner because he killed Walt.

I'm sorry that everybody doesn't love AK like I do, but the fact that you don't and I do shouldn't besmearch my opinion of it or color the credbility my opinions have. I think Alien Encounter, Astro Orbiter & CoP suck andwithouta single decet place o eat...making Tomorrowland SM & Buzz for me...Do you hear me crowing about how lame these things are because I don't like them? No, we all have t try and understand where this is all going. So Disney has changed the AK plan mid-stream, thats ok...Let's wait and see it DR is the best we'll ever get. So the hours are down, too bad, but they seem to be accomodating crowds with the 'game day' decisions - not ideal but hardly a negative. So Space isn't going to be as huge it could have been...Hey neither is ToT, Splash Mountain or PoC - Everything could be or could have been better.

I really think Disney has problems, but they have not eclipsed the Park experience yet (not even close) and as Eyore2U points out, ABC is only 2 or 3 hit shows from being profitable - Anything can happen.

Fodder, fodder is the Pirate the fodder?

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

We all understand and feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to totally strip away the enjoyment of the Parks?

Just to stomp all over Greg's noble efforts, I will now throw around Car analogies like crazy.

I believe the 'Baron has "Car #3" tattooed across his forehead... I don't think I'm stereotyping by placing him there for the purpose of this post. And we all know about his imminent season in WDW.

Doesn't that already answer your question, Tom? No, cut hours do not "totally strip away the enjoyment" of WDW. Car #3 is going _to_ WDW, Landbaron individually is going _to_ WDW.

No one in Car #3, to my knowledge, has ever said "enough to totally strip away the enjoyment;" indeed, that description actually adorns Car #4, not Car #3.

Tom, you didn't use the Car terms, but I feel that your statement above is dismissive of facts you know and opinions of which you are aware. Instead of offering a dissenting opinion on the hours topic (as a matter of fact, you appear to _agree_ with the complaint/opinion), you question the validity of something no one has said.

It's impossible for the Car analogy to mean anything at all if people decide that the Car definitions can mean whatever they want them to mean, rather than what the words attached to them actually mean.

I'm sorry that everybody doesn't love AK like I do, but the fact that you don't and I do shouldn't besmearch my opinion of it or color the credbility my opinions have.

No one ever argued that you secretly don't like Animal Kingdom. We've heard your opinion, we know you like it.

We just don't think "Tom likes it" means "Animal Kingdom is as Magic as Disney could make it." Nothing about you or your perfectly valid opinion; just pointing out that your opinion loses validity if you try to substitute it for everyone else's opinion.

I really think Disney has problems, but they have not eclipsed the Park experience yet

Okay, when there's no way to avoid a fight, you might as dive in.

Tom, I respect your opinion: your opinion absolutely gives me goosebumps, it's so damned valid.

But to compare the words you used to the words draped across the Cars, it appears that logically you would be in Car #2: problems, but you are confident that they will be worked through. There are quite a few good folks in Car #2, and as long as we're all going _toward_ WDW, we've got something in common, right? There's nothing inherently _wrong_ with Car #2, right?

But I suspect your reaction to this part of the post is going to be defensive. Like I was trying to trick you or actually knock you out of Car #1, as though there was some value inherent to the Cars.

As though the thought of you being in any Car but Car #1 was a personal insult to you.

Suggesting that Car #2 is the Car that most accurately fits your statements is not an insult and is not a slam, it is trying to understand what you are saying.

Suggesting that Car #1's banner might send Disney an inaccurate message is not invalidating your opinion, it is pointing out that criticism can be more constructive than silently accepting acknowledged problems.

Do you see what I mean? There's an awful lot of room for agreement between you and Car #3 based on your fourth paragraph; and Car #2 seems like a perfect fit.

But based on previous posts where this topic has been broached, I fully expect you to respond sounding like some wounded kitten, crying that the mean ol' Headsicle is trying to push you out of Car #1 and deprive you of your birthright.

Come on Tom: make me look like an idiot, here. There's a lot of room to talk about topics, here: different people reading the Car descriptions different ways, Car membership becoming a source of pride to Car riders instead of merely a convenient shorthand, posts proselytising against Car members rathr than commenting on the topic... you wanna take any of that and run with it, or you wanna dwell on a couple harsh words I sprinkled here and there, and declare Victory through Victimization, again?

-WFH

 

[DisneyKidds]

WFH - I'll run with some of that.

I won't speak for the Pirate, but let me make his statement in my words.

We all feel the pain of the loss of hours, but still is this enough to diminish the Magic?

You say yes. Pirate and myself, as well as Stanley, Scoop, the Captain, the Duck (who am I leaving out?) say no. However, many a reference has been made to how no one can understand how we could possible feel that way. I think that there is a lot of egocentric thought out there on the part of many. Is that an 'idea' we can discuss or is it not a valid statement or opinion? You see, the Magic is absolutely different for each and every person. To suggest that the problems you see (and we see, too) should diminish everyones Magic is just plain wrong. It might affect some of the experience, but that isn't necessarily the same as the Magic. To suggest that there is no logical way to believe what we do based on known facts and opinions and that we really belong in a different car is to, how should I say it, oh, reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes.

It's impossible for the Car analogy to mean anything at all if people decide that the Car definitions can mean whatever they want them to mean, rather than what the words attached to them actually mean.

I think there are quite a few people guilty of this. As I remember reading it Car #1 was - 'the Magic is as strong as ever'. Car #1 didn't say - 'current management is doing a wonderful job and is headed in the right direction and has not made a mistake that in any way affects the WDW experience and those in this car are sending that message to Disney'. Those seem to be words that someone else attached to Car #1. Remember, the Magic is different for each and every person. Some feel the old Magic withstands the rigors of time and mistake and that new Magic has been created. Some don't. But to say one is wrong is to, how should I say it, oh, reduce the opinions of others to uninformed, undefendable stereotypes.

We just don't think "Tom likes it" means "Animal Kingdom is as Magic as Disney could make it."

And I don't think the Pirate implied that everyone should feel that way. Also, we can agree that things in AK could have been done better, could have been a little more Magic - but that doesn't mean that Magic, strong Magic, isn't there for some. Perhaps not for you and that's ok. Just don't try and tell us it is not Magic as that is dismissive of facts you know and opinions of which you are aware. Nothing about you or your perfectly valid opinion; just pointing out that your opinion loses validity if you try to substitute it for everyone else's opinion.

Here is a topic not many have bitten on. What is the Magic for you (generic 'you')? You see, we might all be using a different vernacular. Is there a definition of Magic that we all share? I don't believe so. So, perhaps understanding what the Magic is to other people will help to shed some light on why people believe what they do. After all, the Magic was what the carpool poll was all about. It is fine, well, and good to discuss how current management and various problems effect your Magic, but if we don't baseline that Magic to begin with the discussion loses its effectiveness. I'll continue the Baron von Disney example for a bit. As you pointed out, Baron will have his tatooed head in the World for an entire season as the experience has not been stripped away completely, but has been reduced by the problems. However, what is the Magic he imbibes while he is there? While parts of his experience may have been affected, has the Magic he craves actually been reduced? How do we know if we don't know what that Magic was or is? Can we seperate the wheat from the chaff, the Magic from the problems? I think we have to. Only then can we understand how the problems effect different people's Magic. Join in the Benchmarking the Disney Magic thread and tell us what Magic it is frozen body parts are drawn to Disney for. Everyone join in - maybe that can help us all understand one another a wee bit better, because I truely belive we are not that far apart .

 

[YoHo]

And so once again, we've decided that "MAgic" is fully subjective, and thus really we have nothing to talk about any more.

MAgic in the Context of this discussion CANNOT be subjective if we are to have a conversation or debate. Perhaps we need a pinned thread that defines these terms in a way that we can all agree on so that we can actually have a constructive conversation.

There is a lot of Subjectivity here to begin with I know people that hated Disney World and Land well before the current administration was involved. Still, There is no subjectivity in what Walt Disney and his successors did to maintain that magic. The fact that even car 1 people speak in terms of negative terms. (nothing has harmed the magic as opposed to these tings have improved the magic) is a major fundimental change.

 

[DisneyKidds]

As much as one would like to box it up and package it, the Magic is always going to be fully subjective as everyone takes something different away from a WDW experience. Was it ever decided that it wasn't (remember, I'm somewhat new to this board)? Has anyone ever submitted a definition of Magic that all agree on, if that is even possible? As you can see from the Benchmarking thread (not many responses yet) no two people have the same Magic.

Unfortunately, so many discussions get melded and intertwined that they do become ineffective. So much emphasis has been placed on the cars, which are all about the subjective Magic. Perhaps to have an effective discussion on certain things we need to get out of the cars and stop shouting back and forth as we hurtle down the Disney highway at 65 mph. Perhaps we need to better define the discussions and remove the Magic from the fray. I was toying with another new thread regarding the Pilfering and Proliferation of WDW in the Post Walt Era. Such a thread could be used to discuss problems, issues, adds, deletes, neglect, etc, and how it effects the general experience without asking how it effects the Magic. For instance, if hours are cut it affects all of our experiences in some way. However, it doesn't effect what I see as the Magic. The experience and the Magic are two different things, yet we talk about them as one in the same. Discussions might be a bit shorter (i.e. - shorter hours suck because you have less time in the park, I agree, end of discussion or AK has fewer rides than MK because they didn't build BK, I agree, end of discussion, etc.) but may be more effective.

I do find the carpool discussions, Magic and all, to be very interesting and they can continue. However, we all need to be open to the fact that what diminishes the Magic for one might not diminish it for another. I would love for people to understand how I can see all the problems but still maintain the Magic is just as strong for me. If you look at what makes the Magic for me perhaps you'd see that. I'd love to learn the same about others. Ultimately I think it can add to all our Magic.

 

[Lesley]

DisneyKidds, you are entirely missing the point....

I was referring to AK not being a work of art in itself...as the other Disney parks are. I know there is plenty of art within the part....its one of the things I love about it.....but its not the same at all.

The Disney Park as an art form provides an immersive experience with many different yet cohesively themed options for guests. AK has many of the facets of this, yet falls short of being cohesive and complete (as a work of art....I'm not referring to how many hours one can spend or how many $) There are too many different ideas in the park that don't fit together into one "work" as of yet....BK is sort of a "missing link" between the elements that they already have. They may decide to go in another direction....but if they don't find a different link to pull it all together the park will forever remain just a theme park and not a complete work of art.

Does anyone at all get what I'm saying? Probably not...oh well......I've learned not to expect to be understood!

 

[Lesley]

So you're saying the experience is not "the Magic"? Or that "magic" is not simply a way of defining the experience?

Hmmmm......

 

[DisneyKidds]

Lesley - I get what you are saying so please don't pull your hair out . However, this is one of those agree to disagree areas I think. While BK would be nice and add to the experience, I feel (for my family and a few others) AK is effective without it. I guess what I got caught up in was that I thought you were agreeing that Disney was trying to 'train' us to forget about art and just 'settle' for a 'theme park'. I don't get the impression that you really feel that way. While the park may not have jelled yet, it appears you agree they were going for art. I apologize if my understanding was mistaken.

 

[YoHo]

In fact, we have had this discussion before. And I believe some conclusions were drawn although I've been out of it a while.

Here is the logic. Obviously the magic is created and cannot be fully subjective, because then why go to WDW?

You go to Walt Disney World, because they provide you something. The Walt Disney company now and always has defined this as magic. Since Disney says they provide you magic, it cannot be subjective.
Truth be told if magic is completely subjective, then I suggest not spending so much money on a Disney Vacation, because you could get that just about anywhere. No, the "Magic" is a substance that can and Should be defined. Nobody talks about the MAgic at Six Flaggs. Oh there are people that love the parks and would rather go to Six Flaggs then Disney, but nobody uses such a powerful term as magic to describe the expireance. that in and of itself means Disney is providing it and means it can be quantified.
The real difference is how much objective magic does and individual need to subjectivly feel the Magic.

Yes, Shorter hours reduce the magic, For landbaron, that was it, that was his breaking point. for others, that was no big thing.

There is also the concept that Disney provides magic in ways that certain people don't need it, again with landbaron, the park hours and the Way those hours were structured and how the company treated guests at the end of the night was a fundimental part of the magic for him. For sayCaptainPeter Crook Pirate, it was not so important for whatever reason.

For me, its the Alternate Transportation. For GCurling it was in part Surprise mornings.

Each of these things are fully a quantifiable magic. The difference is the preceived Value of that magic.

The current administration is in the buisness of reducing the Magic to a "happy" medium where the preceived magic of say 80% of the Visitors is still high while those lost in the shuffle have a minimal effect on the bottom line.

The way Disney used to do things and the way (IMO) they should always do things is to Provide Magic to an exceedingly high level and Satisfy 99.99% of their guests. Car 3 simply should never have existed. The required Magic for You to have a magical expireance as compared to me should not enter into the equation.

 

[DisneyKidds]

So you're saying the experience is not "the Magic"? Or that "magic" is not simply a way of defining the experience?

Now let me tear my hair out trying to explain this....but YES!!!!!

Keep in mind, the Magic is what makes a Disney experience different form a (insert other theme park) experience.

Here is the Disney 'experience' (VERY abbrviated version):

I enter the MK and stroll down the Main St. and hit the central hub. The park opened at X and will close at X. I ride many different cool rides, I wait in lines, I see a variety of good shows, have a decent meal, see some fireworks, and leave the park.

Here is the (insert other theme park) 'experience' (VERY abbreviated version:

I enter IOA and stroll down the main entrance and hit the central hub. The park opened at X and will close at X. I ride many different cool rides, I wait in lines, I see a variety of good shows, have a decent meal, see some fireworks, and leave the park.

What is different about the 'experience'? Well, different rides and shows, but is that what makes Disney different? Not for me. The difference is the 'Magic', and the 'Magic' is something unique and individual I take away from the Disney 'experience' vs. the Busch Gardens 'experience'.

Am I making any sense here? All to often it seems I don't .

Let me go a bit further with this with a very simple example. If the hours at the MK change and now they close at 10 instead of midnight the 'experience' is changed, but is the 'Magic'. No, not for me, because my Magic is the mystical journey I take from the real world to the Disney world when I arrive. Yeah, I may spend a couple hours less in the Disney world, but I am still transported to another time and place, away from my real world cares for just a short time. With me?

So yes, I think the 'experience' and the 'Magic' have to be two different things. Otherwise, a lot of people would let the diminished 'expereince' keep them from going. But they don't because there is something more, something 'Magic', that seperates one 'experience' from another. We all pretty much have the same 'experience' but we each take away different 'Magic'.

I'll return to beat my head agaist the wall later if I've lost you .

 

[DisneyKidds]

YoHo - I'm just not with you. You say the Magic is objective, yet I have yet to see anyone define it, bottle it up and sell it. You say it is subjective yet agree that a change illicits a different reaction in one person than it does in another as far as the Magic is concerned. Did Walt say Magic equals keeping the parks open until midnight? Did he say it was letting people in an hour early (btw - did EE even exist during Walt's time)? Did Walt ever indicate that the Magic had anything to do with hours? or transportation? or whatever? Walt created the 'Happiest Place on Earth' but did he say THIS HERE is what makes each person happy? The Magic is the result of a combination of so many different things on so many different level that I doubt it could ever be quantified. That is why they call it Magic. Magic by it's nature is something that cannot be explained, and in the theme park world only Disney has it.

Maybe you need to call it 'Magic (trademark)', or maybe people use the term Magic too lightly. But still, where in the Disney handbook does it say THIS is the Magic. It is just don't believe it is that simple.

 

[YoHo]

Actually, Walt had Firm beliefs about every single aspect of his park and how it affected the magic. Hours were not Cut for profits sake, etc.

Walt Created the Happiest Place on Earth By making Darn good and sure to look in to every Detail so that the SUbjective could be ignored.

The fact is that every single aspect of a Disney park from the Paint on a building to the Smile on a CM to the Food on you're plate is an objective aspect of the MAgic of Disney.

The Subjective part is what you the individual guest takes from the expireance.

In other words there are parts of the Disney Magic that you will never ever expireance, because you are not wired to notice them. Another will see them, but not notice something that deeply affects the magic for you.


The Magic isn't an elixer to be sold, it is a buisness concept that should apply to every single solitary aspect of the Disney Parks from The greatest E-ticket to the lowliest flower. THAT is what creates the magic. Call its Attention to detail on a gigantic scale and yes, that is what Walt was all about. That's what Walt screemed and yelled about. That's what caused him to fire CMs. That's what caused him to change Pirates from a walking tour to a boat ride. etc.

It is all quantifieable.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Am I making any sense here?

Yes, you are. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that the root of the frustration in this case is that, even though we understand what you are saying, we don't care about the particular question you are answering. I think there are people trying to get you to answer a slightly different but related question, one that we have not seen answered.

I feel that you keep answering the question "Does DisneyKidds like WDW?" I think that's the question you answered when you picked your Car. And that's well and good, except that it degenerates the Cars into a simple and subjective rating system: How much do you like Disney, 1 is most, 2 is medium, 3 is least.

Beyond tallying the vote and marvelling over the wide range of experiences wedging themselves into a few strata, making the Cars a measure of how much one loves Disney simply gets us nowhere. No one wants to minimize how much Disney means to you, and as you already seen, several people will fight you if they think you're minimizing what Disney means to them.

If the Cars measure _our_ input to the Magic equation, there's no point for anyone to be here other than to see their own pretty typing, because everyone's opinion is theirs and just you shut up about it. There's nothing but hot air exchanged.

If the Cars measure _Disney's_ input to the Magic equation, there's room to discuss the effort and techniques involved. There's actual meat, there.

Which way we headed, gang?

-WFH

 

[hopemax]

The Magic is the result of a combination of so many different things on so many different level that I doubt it could ever be quantified.

I agree with the first part, but not the second. I think the "Magic" can be quantified, but that people would just sit back and call it "magic" then go through the trouble of sitting down and working it out.

Feeling "magic" is just a reaction. And the only thing you need to know to create "magic" is to push people's buttons. And for all the many ways people are different, the majority of us all react in a more or less same way under certain circumstances. The key words are "majority" and "more or less." All that's required is to get people to respond within a certain "zone" it doesn't require that each person's response be identical.

The "Magic" is like a percale sheet. Every thread of the 300 ct. fabric can be assigned a tag. All are woven together to form a sort of a "solid" object. And sure you can remove a thread here or there without really affecting the appearance or functionality of the sheet. But remove too many, and the sheet starts to appear ratty and does affect it's functionality. The question becomes then, if you found your kids playing with the sheet and pulling out the threads, do you

1. Tell the kids to knock it off, ASAP because you recognize that if they keep it up that sheet isn't going to be useful anymore.

2. Recognize that at the moment the sheet is still useful, and close the door without telling the kids they are doing anything wrong.

Did Walt ever indicate that the Magic had anything to do with hours?

Actually, yes. During DL's early years, Walt couldn't do everything "his way" in the park. He had organized a group of sponsers to fund the Tomorrowland attractions, and run them. The sponsers had other ideas about good business and would operate their spaces at hours less than DL's. Walt was extremely pissed off and dumped many of those sponsers as soon as the sponsorship agreement ended. Some of those sponsers wanted to renew their relationship with the park, but Walt turned both them and their "free" money away. Because in his mind it was more important that everything within the park be open. Source: "The Nickel Tour."

 

[YoHo]

The "Magic" is like a percale sheet. Every thread of the 300 ct. fabric can be assigned a tag. All are woven together to form a sort of a "solid" object. And sure you can remove a thread here or there without really affecting the appearance or functionality of the sheet. But remove too many, and the sheet starts to appear ratty and does affect it's functionality. The question becomes then, if you found your kids playing with the sheet and pulling out the threads, do you

This is exactly What I'm saying. The magic is the sum of the parts and each Magic Thread pulled out alters the Whole. Some will notice it, others will not.

 

[DisneyKidds]

In other words there are parts of the Disney Magic that you will never ever experience, because you are not wired to notice them. Another will see them, but not notice something that deeply affects the magic for you.

You seem to think people don't comprehend this, yet you are wrong. If you notice EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) and are not blinded by other things, you can continue to see the Magic, even if a thread gets pulled out. It is that all encompasing layering, the incredible detail that Walt insisted on that makes the Magic. So Dino Rama stinks, that doesn't undermine the intricate layers of detail that already were placed in the AK. Fine, quantify it as the paint, the sidewalk, this ride, that tree, this smell, that light, those shows, these CM, that meal, this fountain, etc. Yes, ok, you can quantify it, but the list would be a million entries long. So they may not have added many entires recently (not that I agree), and they have only erased a few. All of a sudden, because the threads that rubbed you the right way were pulled out anyone who doesn't feel the same way is just going by feeling, or perception - they are ignorant to the real issues of CREATION and destruction. I respectfully disagree.

If the Cars measure _Disney's_ input to the Magic equation, there's room to discuss the effort and techniques involved. There's actual meat, there.

I don't see much of this. Some think AK is a stinker, with fact and opinion to back it up. Some think AK is really good, with fact and opinion to back it up. Yet those who see good things CREATED there are brow beaten because we are in the slight minority.

I think there are people trying to get you to answer a slightly different but related question, one that we have not seen answered.

Please enlighten me as to what this qustion is so I may answer it the way you like.

Some will notice it, others will not.

I figured when the day came that someone indicated that some people just weren't capable of seeing IT, it was time for a break.

Oh Captain, Captain, where are you? Let me look for him over here.

 

[hopemax]

I figured when the day came that someone indicated that some people just weren't capable of seeing IT, it was time for a break.

I can't stop people from feeling offended if they want to, but...

If you attend a football game with 29,999 other fans do you expect yourself to be able to describe all of those other people?

I would guess you don't. And I doubt that you would feel offended if someone said they were at the game and ran into your neighbor, but you didn't see them. You would chalk it up to the size of the stadium and the fact that you simply can't see all 29,999 people.

IT is like the packed stadium, made up by thousands of pieces, so why get bent out of shape when someone says there are parts of IT you may not have seen?