DEBATE: They’ve successfully trained us to “settle”

[DisneyKidds]

Hopemax - no offense taken. This is only a Disney discussion board after all and I have a few more important things to worry about than to become offended here. Just that I need to focus on some of those other things for a bit.

As to seeing IT, I wholeheartedly agree with not being able to see every little thing, every person in the stadium. However, when someone implies I'm watching a different game because I don't know as much about football, well that is a different story.

 

[YoHo]

even if a thread gets pulled out. It is
that all encompasing layering, the incredible detail that Walt insisted on that makes the Magic. So Dino Rama
stinks, that doesn't undermine the intricate layers of detail that already were placed in the AK.

No, but it is like a Black Thread amidst and All White blanket.

So they may not have added many
entires recently (not that I agree), and they have only erased a few. All of a sudden, because the threads that
rubbed you the right way were pulled out anyone who doesn't feel the same way is just going by feeling, or
perception - they are ignorant to the real issues of CREATION and destruction. I respectfully disagree.

You may Disagree, but this is in fact the point.

It isn't that Disney pulled a few strings out here and there, that is just a catalyst. It is the Fear that Disney is simply going to keep pulling and pulling until there is nothing left, because the people in charge are (Please Choose: Incompitant, Evil, money grubbing, all of the above).

People in Car 3 (and in fact Car 2) are saying LOOK OUT, because Disney the Company doesn't care any more about Disney the Magic. And someday, you too could be in car 3.
I am not in Car 3, but I will say that Disney The company has done little to nothing in the past 3 or so years that makes me thin that they are putting the cloth back together again. Disney "The Company" is still ripping it out Thread by Thread.

Where is Landbaron? He loves a good analogy.

However, when someone implies I'm watching a different game because I don't know as much about football, well

I have not been in this discussion long so I pray you don't mean me, but most of the People here are funloving and would never suggest such a thing. Tempers do run High though after all, we have all adopted Disney as are own.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Reaching......groping.....stretching for that limb......don't get sucked back in........Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh.............................

You may Disagree, but this is in fact the point.

YoHo, please tell me you want to rethink this one. It does appear you are saying that those in Car #1 are ingnorant on the subject at hand.

I have not been in this discussion long so I pray you don't mean me, but most of the People here are funloving and would never suggest such a thing.

I had not been referring to you. However, if you are really saying what it is you just said.... well I might have to reconsider.

 

[YoHo]

Well, that is in fact the Point that Car 3 people were trying to make. What I meant to say is that you may disagree that it is a valid conclusion to be drawn, ie, you are in Car 1, but that is none the less the Argument at hand.
The point is that just because what floats your magic bubble has not been affected at all does not mean that fears of the Car 3 people are invalid. Its not a negative thing. It's the football game.


Well, I've probably just dug my hole deeper. I'm not a mean guy, REally I'm not!

Its not about Ignorance per se' its about observing something that has yet to affect you in an objective way. (Take someone elses magic as your own as it were.)

 

[DisneyKidds]

YoHo., YoHo, YoHo, Yeeeoww.....

No, you are not mean. However, I will point out this one subtle difference that may never have come thru (before I run to catch a train).

The point is that just because what floats your magic bubble has not been affected at all does not mean that fears of the Car 3 people are invalid.

I would never presume to say your fears were not valid when it comes to the Magic you derive from the Magic that has been created and presented (a subject on which we have differing opinions). You, on the other hand seem to be invalidating the Car #1 lack of fear and dismissing it as the incoherent babblings of an ingnorant, dare I say, apologists.

Dig, dig, dig - the holes get deeper.

Sclock, Slurp, Suck....... as I try to pull my shoes out of the muck.

 

[YoHo]

Hey now, I don't like being accused of Car 3 status.


In my defense, I have never accused anyone of being an apologist. and I only call people ignorant when they talk about Eisner's Reputation and skills at handling Studio Finances, since there is absolutly zero evidence to back that up at all.

BUT, by definition, the opinion I expressed, the opinion of Cars 2&3 must state that the opinion of Car 1 is Wrong. The "Magic" as defined in the Carpool thread is the Objective not the subjective. It has to be logically. The difference is that for some, the Subjective and the objective have become one and it is gone.

If I feel that the Magic is fading, that the Thread is being pulled out of the cloth even as we speak, then logically, I cannot agree, that the MAgic is as strong as ever, that the cloth is still whole and undamaged.
We could agree to disagree on it all, but that would pretty much shut down all debate. Plus, I've never seen an instance where statements like that lasted for more then a few days on this board.

So logically, I simply cannot agree with what Car 1 thinks on this subject. And When the subject comes up I will feel free to disagree strongly. While also attempting to remain as civil as possible, because it makes things easier if and when I ever actually make it to a Dis Rumours meet.

 

[airlarry!]

Voices cackle in the background as Yoho! presses 'submit.'

"He is dawdling, yes, but he is inching ever closer to the Dark Side."

"Agreed. He will be one of us soon. He only has to admit it."

"Yes, yes, yes, we have watched this one these last few years, and he will soon be another backseat driver in Car Three........"

 

[YoHo]

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Soon I will be the Most Powerful Car Three Jedi Ever!!!

It's all Peter Pirate's Fault, He's Holding me Back!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

YoHo

Where is Landbaron? He loves a good analogy.

Reporting for duty, SIR!!! (And you are right. I does loves them analogies!!)

I am not in Car 3, but I will say that Disney The Company has done little to nothing in the past 3 or so years that makes me think that they are putting the cloth back together again. Disney "The Company" is still ripping it out Thread by Thread.

That is the point!! Perfect, Mr. YoHo!! Well said.

If it were some random act, an anomaly or just some stupidity I could be very happy leaping between cars #2 and 1. BUT IT IS NOT!!! The company, our company, the Disney company, is doing it intentionally and with deliberate action. They themselves are soiling and picking apart the cloth. So even if it doesn’t affect your magic directly, you should be concerned. It is only a matter of time before what you hold dear in the Disney Company is no longer there!

Just to stomp all over Greg's noble efforts, I will now throw around Car analogies like crazy.

Man!! This was the first post I read after work today. I nearly died!! Thanks for the laugh!!

I believe the 'Baron has "Car #3" tattooed across his forehead...

Yes!! In a way I hope Ei$ner never leaves. I hear tattoo removal is very painful!!!

But still, where in the Disney handbook does it say THIS is the Magic. It is just don't believe it is that simple.

I keep telling you to read about Walt. It’s all there. The blueprint for the magic is in those stories. READ THEM!!!!

If you notice EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) and are not blinded by other things, you can continue to see the Magic, even if a thread gets pulled out.

But that thread diminishes the whole!! AND, more importantly, who’s doing the pulling? If it is coming from within, then we are in grave danger!! “GRAVE” danger? Is there any other kind? (Obscure movie reference. Anybody?)


ps: YoHo! You've been riding shotgun with me for a long time now. You just didn't know it!!!!

 

[raidermatt]

...“GRAVE” danger? Is there any other kind? (Obscure movie reference. Anybody?)

Lord Baron, to this, I can only say: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

No truth-handler, you!

-WFH

 

[YoHo]

I think I'm entitled to the Truth.

 

[Lesley]

DisneyKidds...didn't want to leave you hanging....I understand perfectly what you are saying. I just don't happen to agree.

No time to get involved further here....I'm heading off to WDW tonight and have many things to do!

Love the sheet analogy.....to add one little bit to it.... I think we're down quite a bit on that thread count, and things like DinoRama aren't adding black threads....they are adding a horrible, scratchy, screened-on print on top of the sheet. Adding black threads would be too costly and would keep the sheet feeling luxurious. Keep taking away threads and adding more printing and the sheet becomes unpleasant. (much like my ds's Star Wars sheets which were so abominably scratchy when we got them that he couldn't sleep on them)

Ok, gotta go.....

 

[raidermatt]

Awhile back in this thread (and in other threads), the cryogenic cranium made some very good points about differentiating between what "I" like and what the overall trend is.

That's why describing how we feel when we walk down Main Street, and using that to say the Magic is as strong as ever doesn't really carry much weight. Sure, it carries a lot of weight when we decide whether to vacation in WDW or Borabora, but not in these debates.

The car 3'ers (there's that nasty label again...) make a very good point when they say we have to look at the total gains and takeaway's, and not just what we care about. For example, I never used EE, and probably never would have, but I have to admit that it still must be recognized when we discuss overall mgmt decisions. Same with the Mickey head butter that used to be falling out of the sky at WDW.

However, when I say that the Magic hasn't faded (or at least hasn't faded enough to move me to car 2), I'm not basing that only on what I like; I truly am taking into consideration other things that have happened. Its just that I'm also trying to consider what impact these things (and others) have had on ALL WDW guests, not just our fun-loving little community here on the R&N board, or even on the DIS.

So while I understand the lack of Mickey head butter can be a significant hit to a Disney afficianado, how big a hit is it in the big picture?

EE has to be seen as a bigger hit, but still, in the big picture, how many WDW guests miss it? Is it a takeaway? ABSOLUTELY! But is it a bigger takeaway than FastPass is a gain? Not even close.

So when I say I am in car 1, I am not ignoring the impact on others, but rather am trying to keep things in perspective, and consider the true big picture that includes ALL WDW guests, not just my friends here on the DIS.

I don't like the direction some of the decisions are taking, I just don't think enough damage has been done to truly fade the Magic. That doesn't mean I won't care until its too late. On the contrary, I let Disney know about things I don't agree with. If they were my decisions to make, I'm sure I'd be doing some things differently. But in my truly best effort to remain objective, I don't see the overall damage that some here see. So, I'm in car 1.25. I see zero to minimal Magic being faded, but I do see the possibility that current mgmt could do some real damage in the future, if trends continue as they have been.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

So while I understand the lack of Mickey head butter can be a significant hit to a Disney aficionado, how big a hit is it in the big picture?

EE has to be seen as a bigger hit, but still, in the big picture…

NO!! They are both equally as important!! I know that’s a hard thing to understand, but it is really what I believe. It’s like dropping a piece of lead and a piece of balsa wood from a building at the same time. It would seem that the lead should fall faster. But they both fall with the same speed!! And I contend that the butter and EE are equal!! They are equal to themselves and they are equal to the elimination of 20K with no replacement.

I will agree that EE has a much bigger impact on someone’s vacation and magic quotient than a pad of butter, but in the ‘big picture’ they are the same. One is no more significant than the other. They are representative of the change in philosophy that I’m always talking about. In fact, in my mind, the pad might be more important because it goes to those little details that set Disney apart from the rest. All amusement parks have rides that they close here and there. And some my initiate perks for special guests that they may cancel. But hardly anyone in the world has the minute details that Disney does, as represented by the stinking butter!!

So when they take away the butter, or the chocolates or use decorations instead of theme or put hideous icons on top of spaceship earth, or ruin the entrance of EPCOT with a cheap hustle or ALWAYS use primary colors, or… (I think you get the picture) I feel the magic fading much faster than when they close CoP or don’t add an E-Ticket fast enough. And if you feel the same way, do yourself a favor. Don’t try to explain it lightly. Hardly anyone will understand it!!

And when you look at some of these things you also have to look behind the spin. You mentioned that fastpass was a great benefit. Well, I’m not so sure on the face of it, but that’s not my point. Nevertheless, I think we have to examine the motivation behind the program. Was it solely to relive the guest of those tired, long lines? Or was the primary motivation to sell more Mickey ice cream bars and plush toys?

Now let’s look at the butter. What was the prime motivating force behind that? I suppose one could be a cynical as possible and claim that it advertised the brand, but I really don’t think so. I think some Imagineer somewhere or an executive with a little vision thought it would be nice for the diner guests! It is another example of what sets Disney apart. That little Disney ‘touch’ that we all love. Therefore, in the ‘big picture’ outlook, that little pad of butter is much more important than an e-ticket or fastpass or almost anything else you care to mention. It’s the live tree in the middle of an indoor restaurant, or an expensive chandelier in a burger joint (see benchmarking the magic thread). They certainly didn’t have to do it. But they did it anyway!!!

Am I making any sense?




BTW: 10 points Sir Raider for being the first to answer the movie reference!!

 

[airlarry!]

Sir Baron, we can grapple all we want with the hows and whys of these decisions, but it comes down to an easy explanation, and I believe Monsieur AV would back me up.

Ei$ner's decision to repeatedly ask for 10/10 -- that is 10% cuts in budget with 10% growth in profit -- means that our favorite little touches at Disney are sometimes the first to go. That includes the individual newsletters that we used to get at the themed resorts, that talked resorts and what was happening but it was typed up like a themed 'newspaper' tied to that report. Those are long gone now, a victim of 10/10 for the resorts.

On the one hand, I would anticipate that some would argue that without certain cuts, jobs may be lost, capital improvements can't be made, etc. They believe it to be an evil but necessary step in maintaing the status quo. Theirs is a valid and arguable point.

I just don't happen to agree. I am biased, yes, but I believe that when a CEO is paid in compensation that is directly affected by the stock price, and the **future** bottom line is what the stock market rewards or punishes the stock, then it is easy to see that Ei$ner was, at least in part, selfishly asking each division to cut things like MHB (Mickey Head Butter) or resort newsletters or magic shops or so many other little things in an effort to boost the stock price--to his gain of course.

At what expense? Car #1 argues that these changes are ice cubes in the water. Car #2 gets worried, but figures thinks are ice sheets that will be avoided. Car #3 says it is an indication that in the future, maybe even the near future, cuts like these are the tip of the iceberg.

The 'training to settle' comes in the promises Ei$ner makes that each year is a bad year and the company needs these cuts to survive. Many of us want to believe that he is telling the truth, and next year we will see the old Disney ways returned. We just forget all the sacrifices Walt made to ensure that his products were made with quality and care every chance he could.

 

[Sandy Fisher]

Once again I find myself reading 2+ pages to catch up.
YoHo, I must say you finally defined what I've been trying to tell myself is missing. Somebody somewhere is removing threads. And I'm one of the Disney fans who worries that it will continue. Are they replacing the good threads with something "not quite" the same quality? Or are they not replacing them at all, which eventually will weaken the fabric? Could be some of each.
But I agree that all the little things, the special touches that go unnoticed by so many, are important and are part of the magic.
Everyone sees the magic differently and puts their own spin on things according to where they are in life.
Months ago someone mentioned that if CoP had been drawing enough people it wouldn't have closed, temporarily or permanently. A reply (and I can't recall who posted it) said "But what about all the families who never saw it?" And I got to thinking that there are people going to WDW for the first time every day. Think what they've missed - and they won't know that kind of magic - Horizons, CoP, Motion, Figment and Dreamfinder, the butter pats, early entry, late-night closings, and on and on.
It would be nice (but unlikely to happen) if someone with believable clout would reassure the faithful that the magic will remain strong and visible and won't be chipped away piece by piece or thread by thread.

 

[Samirella]

Originally posted by gcurling

Disney-MGM studios has seemed to be a haphazard, constantly changing (isn't Beauty and the Beast in it's third home right now) layout.

Beauty and the Beast has only been in Theater of the Stars and Backlot Theater. Theater of the Stars used to be where Sunset Boulevard meets Hollywood Boulevard before Sunset was built. They just moved it back once the area was built.