Deep dive into Fastpass/Genie+ on Defunctland

[Jrb1979]

All Disney needs to do is have longer park hours. The recent hours are significantly less than they have been in the past. I think even before the shutdown, hours had been reduced a little bit.

Extending hours isn't happening. Not when they can charge people for another ticket for the evening hours. IMO what hurts Genie+ the most is not enough attractions and that everyone still has access to Genie+. Genie+ would work if less people had it.

 

[Rileygirl]

Extending hours isn't happening. Not when they can charge people for another ticket for the evening hours. IMO what hurts Genie+ the most is not enough attractions and that everyone still has access to Genie+. Genie+ would work if less people had it.

There’s the rub. Genie was invented so it would level the playing field…. So access for all.
(Btw, I am not against having equal opportunity for all. But as others have stated, Genie is not making everybody even moderately happy. Instead it’s frustrating and pissing everyone off possibly)

Time will tell if things get better or worse, as there are IT problems in the mix.

Going back to the absolutely awesome video, I found it super interesting that using fast pass plus and genie plus- makes the parks feel more crowded everywhere as people are waiting in virtual lines. I suppose this is obvious, but I just did not put two and two together.

I’m guessing this impacts the experience in the parks negatively, because there is more waiting, at counter service, carts, stores, everything, because people are not sucked into ques. Wonder how Animal Kingdom is going to fare this Xmas season…..

 

[_19disnA]

Didn't spend 2 hrs watching the entire video but 'fast forwarded' thru different parts to get a sense of the key points. Seems to summarize the main issues along with providing their opinion (some of which I agree with and others I don't) on what problems there are. To me the main problem is Disney lets too many people into the park for the available ride capacity. This causes lines to be too long. Schemes like FastPass or Genie seem to be attempts to manage the crowds but doesn't really solve that problem and creates a number of new ones. It clearly isn't news to Disney that rides lines are too long and people get frustrated with wait times. But then they design Star Wars with insufficient capacity so that the entire day's ride is sold out within a few minutes of the park opening? How does that make any sense?

We reserved our 3 daily FastPasses when we last went in 2019. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that using FastPass on the most popular rides (i.e. ones with longest lines) is probably the best use of them. After using those up and maybe being able to get a few more, you still have the same issue with capacity. Disney parks are HUGE and the idea that someone is going to walk from one end of the park to another area just because posted ride times are a bit shorter doesn't seem like reality. By the time you walk there, lines could be longer and/or a ride might be down for maintenance. Even with the new Genie scheme, that could still be an issue. Regardless of how familiar someone is with Disney, no amount of advance planning is going to make the park any less crowded.

The bottom line to us is Disney is too crowded and too expensive compared to other places we like to vacation so we have ZERO plans to return anytime soon. The introduction of Genie isn't going to change our views on Disney and just adds another layer of complexity we find annoying.

 

[mab2012]

FP+ wasn't biased against first-time guests. It was biased against people who couldn't be bothered to do any research or planning around their expensive vacations in advance. All of the information needed to make best use of FP+ was just as available to first-time guests as it was to veterans, and I'm sure many first-time and occasional visitors (including my own family) did just fine with it.

"Not planning" is a valid personal choice, but it's usually going to lead to worse outcomes in basically every aspect of life. A business might reasonably decide that any given system or process is not meeting their objectives, but blaming people who DO take the time to plan for ruining the experiences of those who don't is nonsense, IMO.

And as others have pointed out, G+ doesn't fix it. It might "level the playing field", but that field is one in which the minority of guests who used to be able find some value in the system have a much worse experience, and the rest have the same crappy experience they always had. Disney is the only "winner", at least in the short term, with the additional revenue G+ creates. What, if anything, it costs them in the long term remains to be seen.

 

[shawthorne44]

FPP was biased against those with short trips since the most popular rides were gone at 60+4 or 5.

 

[T-Daddy]

Guest experience could be enhanced with more attractions, more capacity, longer hours. And for the love of God, stop the cuts to entertainment and streetmosphere. But those measures cost money, and this is a short term money grab.

 

[CBMom01]

FPP was biased against those with short trips since the most popular rides were gone at 60+4 or 5.

Eh, yes and no. Something always opened up but you had to be diligent and flexible to take advantage

 

[5DisneyNuts]

For those saying the reason for G+ was to improve the experience of the one time non-planning guest, why didn't Disney leave FP+ in place and distribute availability? Decreasing the amount available at 60 days, dropping headliners at 30, and day of?

 

[disneyseniors]

or
Unlike at a restaurant, f
example, the devoted, repeat customer spends considerably less per visit to Disney. The occasional or once-in-a-lifetime won't have an AP and they will try to cram as much into the trip as they can. That means doing things like eating in-park to avoid having to leave. Probably buying tours, maybe club-level back when that allowed you to buy extra FPP.

I don't agree with the statement that repeat customers spend less. I think some of that might true. But we visited once a year and we ate at disney only, bought lots of souveniers for kids/grandkids/ and ourselves each time. We never cut back because it was our favorite vacation and we didn't limit ourselves.
I tend to think that others save up or budget to buy things and eat good meals and QS . The AP'ers might not spend as much, but I bet alot do spend!

 

[Bruggok]

For those saying the reason for G+ was to improve the experience of the one time non-planning guest, why didn't Disney leave FP+ in place and distribute availability? Decreasing the amount available at 60 days, dropping headliners at 30, and day of?

To do what you recommended would be low cost and logical. However, it is far more profitable to make CMs paint new signs, learn new G+/LL system, and charge guests up the wazoo. Put out enough marketing and people will be fooled into believing that the new system is "fairer", when they just ditched FP+ that gave free FP to ALL guests in favor of G+/LL, which is biased toward people willing to spend $. Interesting how many people claim to hate planning ahead for FP+, but love waking up at 7am every park day to pay more $. If that isn't doubletalk I don't know what is.

 

[CBMom01]

Still, a system that no one can game is fairer than a system that a small percentage of guests game to the detriment of everyone else

 

[5DisneyNuts]

Still, a system that no one can game is fairer than a system that a small percentage of guests game to the detriment of everyone else

The percent of people "gaming the system" was, I would believe, incredibly small and Disney closed the loopholes. There is an entire thread dedicated to strategies on using G+. Is that gaming the system or trying to maximize value?

Disney current management created this and are now literally saying the loyal frequent visitor is not their focus.

This from a company who was the gold standard for guest experience.

This is a money grab IMO and their corporate speak of democratizing the system is hard to swallow.

 

[jimmymc]

Didn't spend 2 hrs watching the entire video but 'fast forwarded' thru different parts to get a sense of the key points. Seems to summarize the main issues along with providing their opinion (some of which I agree with and others I don't) on what problems there are. To me the main problem is Disney lets too many people into the park for the available ride capacity. This causes lines to be too long. Schemes like FastPass or Genie seem to be attempts to manage the crowds but doesn't really solve that problem and creates a number of new ones. It clearly isn't news to Disney that rides lines are too long and people get frustrated with wait times. But then they design Star Wars with insufficient capacity so that the entire day's ride is sold out within a few minutes of the park opening? How does that make any sense?

We reserved our 3 daily FastPasses when we last went in 2019. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that using FastPass on the most popular rides (i.e. ones with longest lines) is probably the best use of them. After using those up and maybe being able to get a few more, you still have the same issue with capacity. Disney parks are HUGE and the idea that someone is going to walk from one end of the park to another area just because posted ride times are a bit shorter doesn't seem like reality. By the time you walk there, lines could be longer and/or a ride might be down for maintenance. Even with the new Genie scheme, that could still be an issue. Regardless of how familiar someone is with Disney, no amount of advance planning is going to make the park any less crowded.

The bottom line to us is Disney is too crowded and too expensive compared to other places we like to vacation so we have ZERO plans to return anytime soon. The introduction of Genie isn't going to change our views on Disney and just adds another layer of complexity we find annoying.

You're right that Disney is getting more and more crowded faster than the new lands and attractions can keep up. One point you missed or just didn't mention is that when Disney was coming up with Fastpass+, they realized that for every guest to have 3 fastpasses every day, they needed to start including more things. Even every attraction in the park having FP+ wasn't enough, so they added characters and stage shows. And that still wasn't enough, so they added things like fireworks and Fantasmic, and that was finally enough. Only the crowds continued to grow after that, resulting in fewer good Fastpasses being available.

The other big issue with Fastpass + is it increased the gap between people in the know and people who didn't plan ahead. If you didn't make ride reservations at 60 days, you were out of luck. With paper tickets, you could at least learn about Fastpass during your first day and use it well the rest of your trip. This is actually 1 thing I like about Genie+, no need to book at 30 or 60 days.

In the end, paper Fastpasses allowed the average guest to experience more rides, while FP+ allowed the experienced guests to get on even more than before by making 3 good advanced reservations and adding them throughout the day. Both Fastpass systems allowed guests to get on more rides than with zero fastpass, because people actually started doing the smaller rides instead of waiting all day for just the E-tickets.

 

[kathy884]

Just a guess, but I am guessing it's primarily onsite guests who are missing fastpass + and are the group that it worked pretty well for. As an offsite guest who travels at busy times and maybe does one or two Disney parks every other year I found it pretty worthless. I would typically just make two reservations. I use touring plans (from the unofficial guide people) and typically there wasn't anything except maybe a fastpass for Space Mountain and Pirates that actually would save me any time, so having three was actually worthless (back tracking that would take more time than what the fastpass would save time for). The recommended fastpasses to try to get and times to try to get them (TP people) have never for any trip that I've taken been available 30 days in advance. FOP and 7DMT for example were never available, so the first I've never done and the 7DMT was a one and done that I skip because of long lines (and I wasn't inclined to try refresh strategies and thing like that (wasn't worth it to me) or wait in the long lines that formed, even at rope drop (again not worth it to me).

 

[Rileygirl]

Again I say, this video is fascinating and thought provoking. It’s so well done. I hope Disney watches this and extrapolates information, because I think it’s going cause an implosion.

I do not think that Genie is going to level the playing field. It’s going to sink it below sea level. For everybody. From this video, Disney appears to be trying to improve the experience of the first time guest. This is going to backfire.

Fact: This video details that under the fast pass plus regime, there was not enough rides, experiences, shows to handle handing out 3 fast plus per day for everybody, the best they could do was for a certain percentage of guests. What that percentage number is, I don’t know. But it’s not 100, and I would not even guess 60%. The number of available new attractions coming online will not alleviate this problem.

Fact: This video explains how the virtual que impacts on how crowded parks feel. only a small percentage of people are actually standing in line for an attraction, so everyone else is standing in line at bathrooms, food carts, stores, counter service restaurants, D level attractions. So every thing you do in the theme park is significantly more frustrating. This is going to lower the quality of the day for EVERYONE, in every respect.

Fact: It appears that the cost of Genie plus, and the additional LL costs are not causing a significant enough threshold to deter a large percentage of guests from getting it. I am extrapolating this information based on the reviews of some very savvy vets from this board who have returned from Disney, completely frustrated with the experience. There was just too little to choose from, and the competition for a decent LL was fierce.

Disney is going to have to limit the number of people who can book genie plus, or raise the price. Both of these things are fraught with problems for Disney. The problem is only going to compound, a worse overall experience for everyone, frustrated and angry guests, and more expense vs a dwindling quality of experience.

I think many newbies coming for their once in a lifetime trip are told, hey, just add 15 bucks to your ticket and you can skip a lot of lines, well, of course they are going to purchase it. But the reality of their experience trying to compete with some savage vets out there, I just don’t think many of them are going to feel happy with their purchase.

With the overall cutbacks that appear to be happening across the board at Disney parks and hotels, new attractions, the things that made Disney magical are diminishing right along with the park experience.

 

[jimmymc]

Just a guess, but I am guessing it's primarily onsite guests who are missing fastpass + and are the group that it worked pretty well for. As an offsite guest who travels at busy times and maybe does one or two Disney parks every other year I found it pretty worthless. I would typically just make two reservations. I use touring plans (from the unofficial guide people) and typically there wasn't anything except maybe a fastpass for Space Mountain and Pirates that actually would save me any time, so having three was actually worthless (back tracking that would take more time than what the fastpass would save time for). The recommended fastpasses to try to get and times to try to get them (TP people) have never for any trip that I've taken been available 30 days in advance. FOP and 7DMT for example were never available, so the first I've never done and the 7DMT was a one and done that I skip because of long lines (and I wasn't inclined to try refresh strategies and thing like that (wasn't worth it to me) or wait in the long lines that formed, even at rope drop (again not worth it to me).

This is basically what the video says. People who use the 60 day window are able to get on 2-3 more rides than with paper Fastpasses, while people who are off-site or last minute get on 1-2 fewer rides. The total average rides per guest was the same, but the divide was larger between those in the know and the average guests.

 

[shawthorne44]

This is basically what the video says. People who use the 60 day window are able to get on 2-3 more rides than with paper Fastpasses, while people who are off-site or last minute get on 1-2 fewer rides. The total average rides per guest was the same, but the divide was larger between those in the know and the average guests.

Yes, as the video says, some people were being sacrificed to the FPP Monster.

 

[TommyJK]

Yes, as the video says, some people were being sacrificed to the FPP Monster.

Not just some. The video showed that in practice the vast majority were being sacrificed to the FP+ Monster (Approx. 65% of visitors experiencing 0-3 attractions vs. approx. 10% experienceing 8+)

 

[Bruggok]

I watched the video again and found it entertaining, but really this issue is not so difficult.

Your doctor's offices and restaurants effectively use a fastpass (free appointment) setup. Some even take standby patients/walk-ins while some don't. Most places are setup like that because it minimizes # of patients in the queue and time spent waiting. They especially don't want people to wait in a queue, but end up never seeing a doctor or getting seated at the restaurant at day's end. If this free appointment+standby system didn't work for WDW, it is not because it was broken, because the basic appointment+standby setup works EVERYWHERE ELSE. It is WDW's implementation that is botched. Check out TDL/TDS - they even have a raffle/drawing system for shows to keep things fairer when demand outstrips supply.

WDW's FP+ implementation gave 3 FP+ 60 days ahead, then once you spent 3, you get more. People game the system and standby too long? Stop giving out more after 3. Standby line too long during early morning rush? Only give out FP+ to quieter time of the day to flatten out the curve. Need to save room for nonplanning guests? Give out only 1 or 2 FP+ and save 1 or 2 for people who didn't reserve. The possibilities are endless.

Now if WDW decided to let too many guests into the park, that is not something that can be fixed by tinkering with appointment and/or standby. Nothing will fix too many guests until there are more attractions, i.e. adding more doctors to see patients, more tables at restaurant, etc. In real life, no sane doctor's office or restaurant will let more and more people to line up on standby, like WDW "increased capacity" but knowing they've not hired additional staff or setup more tables (equiv. to WDW holding ride capacity/hour x # of rides constant). I pay docs and restaurants plenty of money, and literally none of them screw up their capacity management so consistently. Only at WDW, would people accept getting told that free appointments ahead of time are unfair and paying more to cut in front of fellow vacation-goers is a better way forward.

 

[Kestryl]

I watched this the night it dropped and literally gasped at the Shapeland review. I have a shirt in preorder.

If you enjoyed this, check out Defunctland’s other projects. Kevin Perjurer (aka Defunctland)produced a documentary on Halyx, a Star Wars-esque band that was in Disneyland in the 80s. A very different topic, but also a compelling story.