Disappointing News - Primeval Whirl

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Oct 21, 1999
I found out today that the height requirement for Primeval Whirl will be set at 48 inches. Yes, the same restrictive requirement that is in place for Rock n Roller Coaster. Seems as though the strongest proponents of Dinorama have been the folks that say that it adds more the whole family can do together. As it was coming out of the ground, it sure looked like a family-fun type coaster. Oh well, I guess Natalie can look forward to riding it in about 4 years.

So, it begs the question, does Disney think that Primeval Whirl will satisfy the "not enough thrill rides at WDW" crowd??? If you go to the AK web page on Disney's site, PW is listed under "Thrills". Does this mean that PW is the replacement for the Excavator?

This attraction seems to miss on all potential targets. It's a "coaster-lite", yet you have to be as tall as is required for Rock n Roller. I just don't get it.
 
No scoop when you have a ride that is great fun but poor theming you have a sixflags quality attraction not a dilemma. Just look at the photos on www.wdwmagic.com and you will see the lack of theme, especially in queue.
 
Why is it set at 48"? Is it that rough of a ride? It looks like a little kiddie rollercoaster, but I guess all the little kids will have to ride tricetops spin. :rolleyes: And BTW, it looks horrible. That looks like somting that they would put up at a local fair. :(
 
Like I said in another thread, Kennywood has a spinning mad mouse and it's height requirement is 46" to ride, and I guess those 46"- 52" have to wear a seatbelt.

The mad mouse is an interesting thing. They look pretty tame, but the lack of banked turns and speed means the ride has a lot of lateral G's. Basically you slam from one side of the car to the person sitting next to you, so it's pretty rough, and little kids would get smushed by an adult pretty easily. I don't know what the spinning does to the ride.
 


My post has nothing to do with quality or theming and all to do with target market and intent of the attraction. The question is - just what is this attraction? Is it a family ride, a thrill ride, what? Who is intended to please?

From the start, I assumed that it was a family attraction. Yet, WDW plants it's most restrictive height requirement at any of the 4 theme parks on it.

We are a family of three. A thrill-averse, motion sickness likely mom, a thrill is plenty fine dad and a 42 inch tall thrill seeking daughter. Well WDW is batting .333 on this one with us. Oh well, that gets you in the Hall of Fame.

So, it seems to fail on the "prefer attractions the whole family can enjoy together camp." I'll make Lesley the chairperson of that group (after reading her posts in the Horizons thread.)

Will it succeed with the "we have too many family rides, we need more thrill rides" camp? Of course, BobO is the chairperson of that group.
 
The “target market” for Primeval Whirl is not families, it’s not thrill seekers, and it’s really not the guests. The target market is a PowerPoint presentation that said one of the biggest guest complaints about Animal Kingdom is that “there’s not enough to do”. Primeval Whirl is the most cost effective way of checking off that item.

Animal Kingdom has had attendance problems since it opened. It failed to attract new visitors to WDW and it’s failed to retain the existing guests after their first visit. Florida was given orders to fix the problem and a flood of polltakers laid siege to DAK’s gate. Whether or not you think “it’s a half day park” or not doesn’t matter, the attendance problem exists whatever one’s personal opinion about the park.

One of Disney’s dirty little secrets is the concept of “perceived value”. When Disney switched from individual ride tickets to passports they faced a marketing problem: how many rides does a customer have to go on in a single day to get the perception they got their money’s worth? With tickets it was easy: the guests got exactly what they paid for. But with a “passport”, each guest started a stopwatch the moment they walked under the train station. A visit became a race to get on as many rides as possible. How many is enbugh?

Obviously, you can’t determine what that number is for each and every individual guest, so you estimate for the entire customer base. And it’s a number that doesn’t mean how many rides you build, it’s really used to determine the number of rides you open on any day, the park operating hours and the staffing levels of the attractions themselves (longer lines mean fewer rides in the day).

At the beginning (way back in the early 1980’s) both Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom were pegged at 13 rides. Shows and entertainment weren’t counted; they were “plusses” to the guests visit. Naturally, like any numerical target set for customer service, the target gets lowered over time. The cost of opening and running attractions, an over inflated sense of “brand value”, faulty comparisons of quality or size, and all the usual suspects that any customer-orientated company suffers from over time.

By the time Animal Kingdom and California Adventure opened, the magic number (according to rumors) stood at 6. Yes, you were supposed to get your full $50 or $43 value from seeing six attractions and shows (oh yes, shows are no longer a “plus”). Even Disney recognized that not every attraction is going to be interesting to every guest, so they built a few more than that just to make sure everyone got in their six. There were legions of MBA’s that poured over marketing data, guest surveys, and all kinds of spreadsheets. They were certain of the numbers.

One problem: Disney had lowered its perception of value, but their guests did not.

Take Disney’s response to a major problem at California Adventure – the place is a wasteland for children. The guests screamed up one side of Guest Relations and down the other side of City Hall. What was Disney’s initial response? They produced a handout listing the attractions for kids (including the tortilla making show) and denied – flat out denied – that there was a problem. They had spreadsheets – the spreadsheets can’t be wrong! We KNOW you’re going to get the value of a child’s admission because we can count the number of rides! Disney knew what “value” was, not their guests!!! It’s a merchandiser’s view: if the numbers are right, then everything is right.

After a while, it became apparent that millions of guests were missing. The parks were in trouble and something had to be done. The solution came once again from the merchandisers – maybe the number is really 7! The spreadsheets weren’t wrong, really, but maybe a little fine tuning was in order because Disney’s guests had become ungrateful (think about all the whining The Company is doing about per-guest spending in Tokyo versus here). So the goal became getting to 7 with the least possible cost. Hence, Dino-Rama in Florida, Flick’s Fun Fair in California (of the four kiddie rides, it’s rumored that two will be height restricted by the way).

Primeval Whirl is not the solution of a showman, it’s the solution of a shopping mall manager. It meets the quantitative requirement of a marketing survey, but it doesn’t meet the qualitative requirements that can’t be easily measured. All that matters is that the spreadsheet is completed. Whether you like the ride or not isn’t the issue. You’ll have your chance to catch seven attractions; your child has their seven. There is no problem.

Because the spreadsheet is right.
 
I notice that the SF papers are none too happy with DCA. They ask the rhetorical question, Why build a California park in California instead of Bejing?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/03/17/IN147298.DTL

Maybe because the spreadsheet said people would pay $43 for the six or seven attractions that DCA had...instead of "stick(ing) to what it does best: creating fantasies that excite children's imaginations." See above link.
 


AV, you have reached a new level of cynacism! LOL! I work in a "Powerpoint culture" and completely understand your point. The bigger the deck, the more data, the better. Often times, marketing data is "Massaged" to look better than it really is. The experts figure that nobody really understands it anyway.

Fortunately, eventually customers catch on. Usually though, the only way a "landlocked" company responds is by a leadership change. We are hoping.
 
Hmmm...I thought this one might actually be fun (though once again our 2yo is left out) but now I'm wondering if it will make me sick. I love RnR...but that seems to be a better quality coaster.

And I've been appointed chairperson of the "prefers attractions the whole family can enjoy together" committee? Yikes...better be more careful about those late night rants!

AV's explanation seems to make sense to me....fits with what otherwise doesn't seem to make sense at all. :rolleyes:
 
GCurling Im happy to be the chairperson of the Thrill Ride dept. When i ride a mad mouse i find them to be interesting coasters but not what i would call a thrill ride. The height limit seems a little high, we rode one at BuscH Gardens Williamsburg last year ands my daughter who was 44inches rode it numerous times and loved it. Im sure that due to lawsuits they will error on the side of being cautious.

AnotherVoice if Primeval Whirl was built for "Thrillseekers" than disney did another awful job of planning a ride for its target audience. It may be a thrill for disney but its nowhere close to being a thrillride for thrill seekers!!! I have always looked at mad mouse coasters to be family coasters and not a thrill coaster. If disney wanted a coaster for thrill seekers they would have one with at least a 200" ft drop or numerous inversions or a ride that would catapult you from 0-75mph in a heartbeat and a mad mouse coaster has none of these elements. I would agree that it was a ride that didnt cost much and could be put up quickly so as to add a attraction to the park. Another example of disney doing something on the cheap!! Alot of parks have these type of coasters because they are cheap to build as compared to a big coaster and it adds a coaster so they can use the number of coasters that they have in their pr campaigns.
 
AV, I don't know how many Disney Dollars you gave Show to keep quiet about your identity, but judging by the confidence you are exhibiting, it must have been a truckload...;)

Now, a few words from one of the moderate candidates...

Really, there are two levels of thrill rides. One is the kick-your-rear (KYA) type thrill ride, that our friend BobO is oh so fond of. (I am too, Bob). Examples of this would be Hulk, Dueling Dragons, Spiderman, Tower of Terror, maybe Terminator, that type of stuff. The other type offers tamer thrills. Not enough for the die-hard thrill seekers, but still enough that the squeamish won't ride them. This is stuff like Space Mountain, Dinosaur, and Big Thunder Mountain. Obviously, some rides are closer to the middle than others, but these classifications should do. Note that themeing and the "show", in and of themselves, are not a factor in this classification. If they contribute to and enhance the thrills fine, but this discussion isn't really about whether Disney still privides a "show", that's another topic.

So, what is PW, and does it belong in AK (again, only taking into account its "thrill" quotient)? Judging from the pictures and descriptions, PW would seem to be a tame thrill ride, and not a KYA thrill ride.

So does PW belong? Well, AK basically had two thrill rides prior to PW. Kali and Dinosaur. It's Tough is probably a borderline tame thrill, but I personally think its a notch below a true thrill attraction. So PW brings AK's total thrill to 3 relatively tame attractions. Generally, I think that's about the right number for a Disney park, though a larger park like MK can handle 4-6 without losing its family -friendly status.

That said, I think AK needs to be careful about its balance. Even with TS, there are still a limited number of family-type attractions. While Reign of Fire is an interesting rumor, I hope that even if it does materialize, it brings with it some non-thrill attractions, as the concept of AK is best suited to a family park, not a thrill park.
 
Raidermatt I would agree with you that there are different degrees of thrill rides and what place you put the rides that you mentioned. Now keeping that in mind that park needs a real thrill ride that thrill seekers would love. If mgm can have 2 more thrilling thrill rides their is no reason that Ak cant at least have one, and the same would go for the rest of the parks.
 
The whole section back there looks like something you'd find in a local fair. It's just plain cheesy. I didn't get it when I first read about the idea and now that I've seen in first hand, I really don't get it. PW is a "wild mouse" rollercoaster just like I used to ride at Crystal Beach. And, I did think this section was supposed to be for the whole family, so why is the height requirement so high?? This is just a huge disappointment, IMHO.
 
That's the point! It is supposed to look like a 'hucksters haven'. Don't you get it? Can't you grasp the irony? I think this is a brilliant idea (again with the assumption and belief that a real BK is forthcoming). Walt hated roadside carnivals for their dirty, in your face stye...Not because of the attractions. Walt knew that a simple spinner, like a carousel (brightly themed) could be as magical as a great ride like POC to some. It seems a shame that what Walt valued is somehow being lost today because people can't see past the fact that it's Eisner at the helm. Walt would love DinoRama because of what it will be offering a particular segment of the AK audience.

I agree with gcurling and I am shocked by the height requirement of PW, but it will still appeal to families with children from the age of 6 or so and up.

If you hate DR because of its simplicity then lets hear some negatisim voiced Walts way (or at least Roys) for the Carousel & Dumbo...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:
 
Walt would love DinoRama because of what it will be offering a particular segment of the AK audience.
CAPTAIN!!!! Did you say that with a straight face?!?!? Walt would love it!?!?! Have you finally lost it!?!?!

Now we can argue the finer point of theme if you like. And we can discuss the easy way out the Imagineers took with this… this… phony, fraudulent, sham of a theme. But to say Walt would LOVE it!?!? Come on, Cap. Even you know that’s not true!!
 
If you hate DR because of its simplicity then lets hear some negatisim voiced Walts way (or at least Roys) for the Carousel & Dumbo
...I (and others) have repeatedly pointed out that Dumbo was a late addition to WDW because management at the time believed they weren't giving people enough for their money, but thirty years ago and financially suffering, all they could afford was a spinner.

I imagine that your twisting this fact into Walt's tacit approval of installing the same ride three decades later while spending four and a half billion dollars on Power Rangers and a place to play them, well, I guess it must be some of that "humor" of yours you so often purport to be misinterpreted.

How the painstakingly detailled restoration of a 19th century carousel could find itself lumped in with what was then and now "the cheapest way to put something there to ride" is simply baffling to me.

Jeff
 
So Jeff, now I purport my humor to be misinterpreted? I thought others did that for me. Oh well...I know you don't like me & never will (unless perhaps you actually meet me someday) and you care even less about understanding my pov and thats ok, so I'll concur that you're right.

Landbaron, you know Walt would love DR...you know it deep within your soul. The simplicity, the irony the sheer audacity...Walt's probably cracked his frozen lips in his cryogenic hideaway after being read of these reports...Oh, Landbaron...you just know it, I can tell!
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:
 
It’s funny, but I know all about “irony”. In Hollywood, “irony” is a code word for “this script’s a load of steaming crud that really, really stinks but we don’t have the will or the talent to do anything about it and besides if we use a five dollar word that people heard about in their high school English class but that they don’t really understand we can con enough people into spending money on this and scram before they realize what a big pile has been placed in front of them”.

We don’t hate Dino-Rama because it’s simple. We hate it because it’s BAD! Animal Kingdom is supposed to be a place that inspires and brings joy out of the wonders of the natural world. How exactly is that accomplished by bringing in a cheesy roadside carnival?

The theme for the Dinoland was supposed to be a fossil dig site. You had the Dino Institute, the Dig Site itself (the children’s play area), the housing for the grad students working on the dig (the restaurant) and the lab area (the now destroyed real life working lab facility). Chester’s and Hester’s was just the one little shop. In fact the original roller coaster was supposed to run through another dig pit filled with fossils. The theme of the area was changed to a carnival because it required less decoration, and thus was cheaper than staying true to the original concept of the area. There was no intention to create a cheap carnival, but that’s how things worked out.

Dino-Rama has nothing to do about giving the guests what they want. It turned out that way because someone with a spreadsheet figured that carnival games would help the bottom line. I guess that's the difference between "designing a theme park" and "filling up slots at the shopping mall" styles of thinking.

Captain, since you seem to be in contact with Walt (I mean, you know that he loves Dino-Rama), please tell him to come back. The Company really needs his help.
 
AV perhaps this would be a perfect time to share your ancedote about how make make money off of Walt spinning in his cryo chamber.
 

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