Disney lowers capacity on low crowd days

[Amii]

If the parks are going to be busy all the time, it's incumbent upon Disney to do what they can to maximize capacity and minimize wait times. They can't have their cake and eat it, too, i.e., they can't rake in all the billions in profits that come from busy parks, while short changing us by keeping the lines long all the time.

Not to mention another point made earlier in this thread: people in line means less people spending in the shops and restaurants. And it means potentially alienated guests, who may decide to come back less often, or not at all.

If enough people go to the parks then they can have their cake and it too. Disney is a business.

If the parks are going to be busy all the time, it's incumbent upon Disney to do what they can to maximize capacity and minimize wait times. They can't have their cake and eat it, too, i.e., they can't rake in all the billions in profits that come from busy parks, while short changing us by keeping the lines long all the time.

Not to mention another point made earlier in this thread: people in line means less people spending in the shops and restaurants. And it means potentially alienated guests, who may decide to come back less often, or not at all.

Disney is a business. If they can raise prices and have longer wait times they will. If people keep filling the parks it will not get any better. Less staff and less operating costs means more profit. If people stop going to the parks then they will be forced to change this.

They now open up Main Street before park opening which means people are eating or shopping during that time. I would guess people get fast passes and have time to kill between fast passes since they might not have time to wait in a long line before the next fastness. They probably walk around the shops or get something to eat. Some people might choose to walk around and look at shops when lines are too long. Disney knows what it is doing. I'm sure they are not missing out on people shopping.

I was just at WDW last week. The parks were much busier than expected. Would it have been nice if the parks were empty? (by Disney standards) Yes. It wasn't. I chose to go and I still had a good time.

 

[Amii]

I don’t think they’re losing $$. But, the after hours stuff brings up another point. I’m one who usually pays for those hard ticket events b/c I feel it’s the only way to escape the ridiculous crowds. But, this thread does make me rethink that. So wdw reduces capacity & staffing so that it always feels packed & then they upsell event that is promised to be less crowded... hmmm

Not to mention the desert parties that will get you a good spot to see the shows, selling extra fast passes, etc.

 

[Colleen27]

This isn't true.

Monday, 1/1 - MK open from 8 am to 11 pm
Tuesday, 1/2 - MK open from 8 am to midnight
Wednesday, 1/3 - MK open from 8 am to midnight, with EMH until 2 am
Thursday, 1/4 - MK open from 8 am to midnight
Friday, 1/5 - MK open from 8 am EMH to midnight
Saturday, 1/6 - MK open from 8 am to 11 pm
Friday, 1/12 - MK open from 8 am EMH to 11 pm
Saturday, 1/15 - MK open from 8 am to midnight
Sunday, 1/16 - MK open from 8 am to midnight
Saturday, 1/20 - MK open from 8 am to midnight
Saturday, 1/27 - MK open from 8 am to midnight

You're right. I pulled up the travel agent calendar but it is still showing the initial hours, not the subsequent updates.

However, even this is a significant reduction compared to years ago. As I said, we were at MK until 3am - something you can't even do at peak season now - and we were there in the middle of the month when crowds are generally low (12 nights, starting MLK weekend). I get why Disney is doing it - I'm part of the problem, to be sure, buying tickets for DAH to get at least one late evening during a week of 8pm closings - but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

 

[kagmypts]

Every member of our family is an AP holder, but we are rethinking that. While we still enjoy Disney (and Orlando), we really feel that our guest experience has been diminishing. Our idea of vacation is not waiting in long lines, especially in slower times, and our recent trips have been less enjoyable as a result. In prior years, we felt relaxed and refreshed on the way home, but that doesn't seem to be the case any more. We are seriously reconsidering how frequently we vacation at Disney.

For the record, my brother's family feels the same way. They are heading down to Orlando this week and have decided to spend their time at Universal. They chose not to renew their APs.

 

[Jen_G]

You're right. I pulled up the travel agent calendar but it is still showing the initial hours, not the subsequent updates.

However, even this is a significant reduction compared to years ago. As I said, we were at MK until 3am - something you can't even do at peak season now - and we were there in the middle of the month when crowds are generally low (12 nights, starting MLK weekend). I get why Disney is doing it - I'm part of the problem, to be sure, buying tickets for DAH to get at least one late evening during a week of 8pm closings - but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

I'm sorry, but again, this isn't accurate - at least not if you're comparing January 2008 and January 2018. In January 2008, the latest MK was open was on the Sunday of MLK weekend, when it was open until 2 AM due to the 3-hour extra magic hours. It was open until 1 AM a few times during the first week of the month, when the NYE and Christmas crowds were around, but after that the majority of its closing times were around 8 PM on weekdays and 11 PM on weekends. In January 2018, MK also closed at 2 AM once (EMH during NYE week), and while it didn't have any closings past midnight for the rest of the month, it had a greater number of after-8 PM closings than in 2008, as well as more 8 AM openings.

To use your example, starting the Friday of MLK weekend, the hours for MK were:

1/18/08 9-8 1/12/18 8-11
1/19/08 9-8 1/13/18 8-12
1/20/08 9-2 1/14/18 8-12
1/21/08 9-7 1/15/18 9-10
1/22/08 9-8 1/16/18 9-8
1/23/08 9-8 1/17/18 9-10
1/24/08 8-8 1/18/18 9-8
1/25/08 9-8 1/19/18 8-8
1/26/08 9-7 1/20/18 8-12
1/27/08 9-11 1/21/18 9-9
1/28/08 9-8 1/22/18 9-8
1/29/08 9-8 1/23/18 9-8

Total hours for 2008: 143 for the 12 day period starting MLK weekend, 385 for the month
Total hours for 2018: 157 for the 12 day period starting MLK weekend, 408 for the month

If you want to include hard ticket events like EMM or DAH, where the times are outside of the normal MK operating hours, then MK is open for significantly longer this year than it was in 2008. Even without them, it was still open for longer than it was ten years ago. I'm not saying this will be true every year - I think that Disney specifically increased hours for 2018 to deal with that they saw were going to be increased crowds - but if you want to compare 2008 and 2018 and claim that hours have been significantly reduced, then that is just flat out not true.

Operating hours from 2018 were taken from TouringPlans, and operating hours from 2008 were taken from http://www.magicalkingdoms.com/wdw/parks/hours/jan08.html

 

[puffkins]

MK may now have significantly longer operating hours as compared to 10 years ago but the experience is completely different. Increased crowds do not fully explain why wait times are exorbitant. It may be coincidence, but the experience (for me) has degraded with the introduction of PF+.

 

[AngiTN]

You're right. I pulled up the travel agent calendar but it is still showing the initial hours, not the subsequent updates.

However, even this is a significant reduction compared to years ago. As I said, we were at MK until 3am - something you can't even do at peak season now - and we were there in the middle of the month when crowds are generally low (12 nights, starting MLK weekend). I get why Disney is doing it - I'm part of the problem, to be sure, buying tickets for DAH to get at least one late evening during a week of 8pm closings - but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

MK was open till 3:00 AM (EMH) on 12/30. We were there till about 2:30 ourselves. I agree it's much more rare than it used to be but they do still open late.

 

[hakepb]

MK may now have significantly longer operating hours as compared to 10 years ago but the experience is completely different. Increased crowds do not fully explain why wait times are exorbitant. It may be coincidence, but the experience (for me) has degraded with the introduction of PF+.

I imagine Disney knew FP+ would cause that.
The increased wait times are the result of a lot more guests using a ton more FP+ Than ever used FP-

Unfortunately to make more guests happy, it did result in a reduced experience for a few FP- power users.

 

[KickassPrincess]

We were there last week also, and while we did okay with the lines inside, getting into the parks could be difficult. MK was easy, AK was mediocre, but Epcot was a hot mess. It took us close to an hour from when we got there to actually get into the park. Only a handful of security guards and a small number of gates open. People were getting really distressed and frustrated in the mob scene it created. I've never had so much trouble getting into the park before, not even in the middle of spring break. That was Monday morning and as the week went by, day by day we found more staff at the gates, so it seems like they really were trying to get away with bare bones staff numbers and had to adjust it up.

 

[MermaidMommy]

Josh has a really interesting post about January wait times at AK. According to his (extensive) data, January 2018's wait times are 26.9% higher than January 2017's, and there's a 70.7% increase in wait times over the past four years. It's definitely worth a read. But his conclusion is this:

"Wait times are (probably) up in part due to increased FastPass+ utilization, in part due to attendance increases, in part due to capacity decreases, in part due to Pandora, and in part due to other variables."
https://www.easywdw.com/easy/blog/n...sney-world-january-at-disneys-animal-kingdom/

ETA: He also makes the point that Disney has traditionally been bad at figuring out when to increase and decrease staffing. He said they were slow to figure out that attendance was decreasing in the summer, which led to artificially short wait times during the summer season, and slow to figure out how much attendance was increasing in the fall, leading to much longer wait times in October. January may turn out to be another instance of Disney's failing to increase capacity and extend hours as a result of higher attendance.

 

[Davey Jones II]

If enough people go to the parks then they can have their cake and it too. Disney is a business.


Disney is a business. If they can raise prices and have longer wait times they will. If people keep filling the parks it will not get any better. Less staff and less operating costs means more profit. If people stop going to the parks then they will be forced to change this.

They now open up Main Street before park opening which means people are eating or shopping during that time. I would guess people get fast passes and have time to kill between fast passes since they might not have time to wait in a long line before the next fastness. They probably walk around the shops or get something to eat. Some people might choose to walk around and look at shops when lines are too long. Disney knows what it is doing. I'm sure they are not missing out on people shopping.

I was just at WDW last week. The parks were much busier than expected. Would it have been nice if the parks were empty? (by Disney standards) Yes. It wasn't. I chose to go and I still had a good time.

Yes, Disney is a business. I still say that happy customers are the best thing for any business. And I'm not saying that Disney has alienated a critical mass of their guests. But the danger is there, if they take us for granted.

And might I point out that these are fan forums, not a Wall Street site. I, and most people here, speak from that perspective. I don't much care how much they are raking in, except to point out that every penny of those profits come from us, the fans. It only makes sense to plow much of it back into the guest experience.

 

[Davey Jones II]

ETA: He also makes the point that Disney has traditionally been bad at figuring out when to increase and decrease staffing. He said they were slow to figure out that attendance was decreasing in the summer, which led to artificially short wait times during the summer season, and slow to figure out how much attendance was increasing in the fall, leading to much longer wait times in October. January may turn out to be another instance of Disney's failing to increase capacity and extend hours as a result of higher attendance.

I actually hope that's true. It would mean Disney is trying to keep up, instead of making cynical and cold calculations about "what they can get away with".

 

[bryanb]

It’s very easy to pick out posts from any given year, out of the hundreds of trip reports, and serve them up as anecdotal evidence for anything you want to prove. And I don’t think it’s disingenuous to do so, but just a product of confirmation bias.

I will acknowledge that the parks were less crowded for a period as the economy tanked from 2006 and the housing bubble peaked around 2008 on. So they were after 9/11 as well. But those times aren’t evidence of Disney getting worse and worse.

Edit: for clarity

 

[Mome Rath]

Disney is the only entity (besides God, Ha!) that has all the stats and numbers about every aspect of the parks and the company as a whole. It is obvious that they love data and statistics and they are indeed monitoring everything. They are trying to forecast weather in a sense, and they will always be somewhat behind because of the changing pattern of the parks and guest experience, lines, etc... So they'll adjust as they go. They do owe both their guests and their stockholders certain things, and so far, I'm happy with both aspects and the balance they are striking, others disagree and that's great too. What is the actual area I think they are going to have to tackle again? Housekeeping, esp. with this new security mess.

As pointed out above, the crowds have indeed changed over time, both up and down. I've experienced it over the years, and not just in times of disaster (such as when Desert Storm started, you could walk down streets in MGM and be the only one on the whole street, and my family was on a plane with only 4 other people) but also just normal ups and downs. Now Disney is working on hitting a certain level and maintaining it all year. People talk of the lines, well, I'm one of those that frequented the parks before any FP whatsoever, and I can remember standing in line, in summer, for about an hour and half to ride 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Ugh. I remember when the parks started looking like Six Flags with trash everywhere, we actually didn't go back for several years at that point, and Disney had taken care of it. In short, as Disney grows, it gets harder to turn the ship on a dime, but I believe they are working on these things, and will continue to do so.

 

[AngiTN]

I actually hope that's true. It would mean Disney is trying to keep up, instead of making cynical and cold calculations about "what they can get away with".

Now you are going to go and take away all the fun the negative trending posters are having. Some around here couldn't say a nice thing about Disney if they gave them a free Annual Pass. For them, it's always cynical and cold and all about what they can get away with, every day.

"Wait times are (probably) up in part due to increased FastPass+ utilization, in part due to attendance increases, in part due to capacity decreases, in part due to Pandora, and in part due to other variables."
https://www.easywdw.com/easy/blog/normal-off-season-wait-times-at-walt-disney-world-january-at-disneys-animal-kingdom/

He has nailed it there. It isn't one thing at fault

 

[zebrastreyepz]

I don’t think they’re losing $$. But, the after hours stuff brings up another point. I’m one who usually pays for those hard ticket events b/c I feel it’s the only way to escape the ridiculous crowds. But, this thread does make me rethink that. So wdw reduces capacity & staffing so that it always feels packed & then they upsell event that is promised to be less crowded... hmmm

NM

 

[MermaidMommy]

I actually hope that's true. It would mean Disney is trying to keep up, instead of making cynical and cold calculations about "what they can get away with".

Well, there still seems to be some of “what they can get away with” thinking. Also from Josh’s post:

“Thinking within the company seems to be that guests should be willing to wait a standard amount of time to experience attractions, whether they’re visiting during a relatively “high” or “low” crowd time. That’s part of why you’ll see a 45-minute peak wait at DINO whether you’re visiting on a day with attendance in the 25th percentile or the 75th percentile.”

 

[AngiTN]

Well, there still seems to be some of “what they can get away with” thinking. Also from Josh’s post:

“Thinking within the company seems to be that guests should be willing to wait a standard amount of time to experience attractions, whether they’re visiting during a relatively “high” or “low” crowd time. That’s part of why you’ll see a 45-minute peak wait at DINO whether you’re visiting on a day with attendance in the 25th percentile or the 75th percentile.”

Sounds like they've set an acceptable wait time limit and as long as the wait time hovers around that, they are happy.
I don't think their goal is to make folks wait in line more, for the sake of waiting in line, just they are willing to give up some wait time (since wait time = guest not spending money) in exchange for lower payroll costs. They found a balance they are happy with.

 

[Airb330]

Josh has a really interesting post about January wait times at AK. According to his (extensive) data, January 2018's wait times are 26.9% higher than January 2017's, and there's a 70.7% increase in wait times over the past four years. It's definitely worth a read. But his conclusion is this:

"Wait times are (probably) up in part due to increased FastPass+ utilization, in part due to attendance increases, in part due to capacity decreases, in part due to Pandora, and in part due to other variables."
https://www.easywdw.com/easy/blog/n...sney-world-january-at-disneys-animal-kingdom/
.

Thanks for sharing. I just said the other day in this thread I'd hope he'd have some numbers. I also agree with his conclusion, it's more than 1 factor causing the increases.

 

[HydroGuy]

Yes, Disney is a business. I still say that happy customers are the best thing for any business. And I'm not saying that Disney has alienated a critical mass of their guests. But the danger is there, if they take us for granted.

I think you are one-third right. Happy customers are essential. But so are happy shareholders and happy employees. The first is hard to do if either of the latter two are not true. Doing all three? That is what makes for a long term, successful business. And it is very hard to do. Disney has done it far better than most, especially since Iger took over 10 some years ago.

And might I point out that these are fan forums, not a Wall Street site. I, and most people here, speak from that perspective. I don't much care how much they are raking in, except to point out that every penny of those profits come from us, the fans. It only makes sense to plow much of it back into the guest experience.

I think you are 100% right on this!