Disney pricing the middle class out

[Andrew015]

But was available to everyone. I would guess 90% of DVC members that bought in that early to mid 2000's, even late 2000's-still own and are basically staying on dues. These things were all offered during the time in question.

Today for under $10K (far less than most cars) you can get a week at OKW every year for no extra charge (by renting 1/2 your points-75), then sell the 150 points when you feel the time is right. Probably get your $10K back, or at least a big chunk of it.

Then get $150 each off the AP as well.

About $18K will get you a week at GFV every year, POLY for even less-maybe $16K.

Or about $5K can get you 75 resale points. Now in that case you would be also paying full dues of what..$400 annually?

$400 for a week at the BWV, around $50 a night.

You're not going to hear any anti-DVC arguments from me. It is far and away the best "bang for buck" option for frequent WDW flyers, and is currently the only tool offered to hedge against management's philosophy of large, YOY price increases on the resort side of things. Fact of the matter remains that for most, this is a moot point that does not apply. Nor does this help explain the massive, YOY price increases in every other category.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

You're not going to hear any anti-DVC arguments from me. It is far and away the best "bang for buck" option for frequent WDW flyers, and is currently the only tool offered to hedge against management's philosophy of large, YOY price increases on the resort side of things. Fact of the matter remains that for most, this is a moot point that does not apply. Nor does this help explain the massive increases in every other category.

Why? $5K is too much for the middle class?

The used DVC market is out there because WDW invented the program-for anyone that wants in.

And my point is the savings they offered in the 2000's on resort stays-were far larger savings than the other price increases.

So the argument of constant prices increases across the board with no new options (in the 2000's) is false.

I noticed you dismissed the "tickets and food" discounts with DVC discount and kitchenettes/kitchens, that and ME.

 

[pilferk]

You could even say "in every category".

Direct sales going from 90-ish a point in 2007 to 160-ish a point in 2015, to me, falls directly into a management directed massive increase in the category.

Yes, there are better resale options out there. No question. But Disney controls those prices only through ROFR. They don't directly set them.

As an add to my earlier post, I went back to those sheet comparisons. In 2007, a Savanna view room at AKL, during Regular season, was $335 a night. In 2015? $507 a night. DVC DEFINITELY gives us a MUCH better deal than current rack rates (esp considering we have 5 people).

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

You could even say "in every category".

Direct sales going from 90-ish a point in 2007 to 160-ish a point in 2015, to me, falls directly into a management directed massive increase in the category.

Yes, there are better resale options out there. No question. But Disney controls those prices only through ROFR. They don't directly set them.

As an add to my earlier post, I went back to those sheet comparisons. In 2007, a Savanna view room at AKL, during Regular season, was $335 a night. In 2015? $507 a night. DVC DEFINITELY gives us a MUCH better deal than current rack rates (esp considering we have 5 people).

Yep I didn't mean DVC points haven't gone up-just the overall "program" was a much larger discount (the resort stay) than the price increases of the rest. Also the DVC AP of $100 wiped out about 5 years of increases as well. Kitchenettes/kitchens dropped food prices, ME dropped car rental prices.

 

[pilferk]

Yep I didn't mean DVC points haven't gone up-just the overall "program" was a much larger discount (the resort stay) than the price increases of the rest. Also the DVC AP of $100 wiped out about 5 years of increases as well. Kitchenettes/kitchens dropped food prices, ME dropped car rental prices.

Yup, I got what you meant. I was really replying to Andrew015, but the stupid reply button didn't quote his post, so...it wasn't obvious.

You and I were typing at roughly the same time....but you beat me to the "Post Reply" button by a bit...so mine popped after yours.

 

[Andrew015]

Why? $5K is too much for the middle class?

The used DVC market is out there because WDW invented the program-for anyone that wants in.

And my point is the savings they offered in the 2000's on resort stays-were far larger savings than the other price increases.

So the argument of constant prices increases across the board with no new options (in the 2000's) is false.

I noticed you dismissed the "tickets and food" discounts with DVC discount and kitchenettes/kitchens, that and ME.

First off, just so everyone in the audience knows, you're strictly talking about DVC purchased via resale, which while open to everyone, still represents a small segment of total DVC purchases. The vast majority of owners are probably unaware that a resale market even exists (I'm yet to speak with 1 family in all of my trips that has purchased second-hand). Secondly, $5K isn't going to buy you much in the way of points. A quick look at TTSS's current inventory shows that the average asking price is just under $17K. And yes - for many, many middle class families, $17k is a large chunk of disposable change to drop all at once on anything in the "vacation" category. Sure, over the long haul, it starts making sense if Disney is your "thing", but the upfront purchase cost is very prohibitive to most families, let alone the fact that most guests really don't make good DVC candidates (you really need to visit once per year or at minimum, once every two years to justify a purchase, and again, we are in the minority). Many that do jump off the cliff end up financing their purchases, incurring additional expenses in the form of interest. Add on top of that the annual recurring dues, the need to purchase ever-increasing park tickets and food, and the total investment is a big nugget for most. I'm not saying that it's out of reach. However, considering that the average U.S. household has ~$9K in credit card debt, it becomes clear that DVC isn't an option for the average family. Those of us who own DVC are in the minority of WDW goers. Those of us who purchased via resale and are really capitalizing on the ROI of the program are in the minority of THAT minority. If it really, truly were that accessible to everyone, or the numbers worked out for everyone as they have for you or I, then we would have seen full blown, 100% conversion of the Poly, GF, Contemp, WL, etc. etc., because everyone would be in DVC.

Discount DVC tickets and kitchenettes don't help the 75%+ of guests that aren't members (taking a swag at that number - feel free for anyone who knows the real number to correct me) nor the 50+% of members that don't cook in their rooms. If you're stooping to those levels for ammunition, you might consider getting the white flag handy. While you and I have weathered the storm better than most, the facts remain that the vast majority have been exposed to massive increases across the board. It's undeniable.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

First off, just so everyone in the audience knows, you're strictly talking about DVC purchased via resale, which while open to everyone, still represents a small segment of total DVC purchases. The vast majority of owners are probably unaware that a resale market even exists (I'm yet to speak with 1 family in all of my trips that has purchased second-hand). Secondly, $5K isn't going to buy you much in the way of points. Most resale contracts are going to be in the $7-10K range and on up from there. A quick look at TTSS's current inventory shows that the average asking price is just under $17K. And yes - for many, many middle class families, $17k is a large chunk of disposable change to drop all at once on anything in the "vacation" category. Sure, over the long haul, it starts making sense if Disney is your "thing", but the upfront purchase cost is very prohibitive to most families. Many that do jump off the cliff end up financing their purchases, incurring additional expenses in the form of interest. Add on top of that the annual recurring dues, the need to purchase ever-increasing park tickets and food, and the total investment is a big nugget for most. I'm not saying that it's out of reach. However, considering that the average U.S. household has ~$9K in credit card debt, it becomes clear that DVC isn't an option for the average family. Those of us who own DVC are in the minority of WDW goers. Those of us who purchased via resale and are really capitalizing on the ROI of the program are in the minority of THAT minority. If it really, truly were that accessible to everyone, or the numbers worked out for everyone as they have for you or I, then we would have seen full blown, 100% conversion of the Poly, GF, Contemp, WL, etc. etc., because everyone would be in DVC.

Discount DVC tickets and kitchenettes don't help the 75%+ of guests that aren't members (taking a swag at that number - feel free for anyone who knows the real number to correct me). If you're stooping to those levels for ammunition, you might consider getting the white flag handy. While you and I have weathered the storm better than most, the facts remain that the vast majority have been exposed to massive increases across the board. It's undeniable.

I have never come close to saying all guests have enjoyed resort stay savings through DVC. But many have-and during the era in question, WDW/DVC was huge savings for many folks-that is my point about that era, it wasn't all bad.

Most of the "complaints" of the 2000's would have to come from repeat visitors. Otherwise how would a guest even know when what was built-much less what the past costs were?

It's a % no doubt, but it is there so my argument holds for them anyway. WDW does deserve credit for the points I made. Folks too ignorant to look into such savings are not my or WDW's fault.

The repeat visitors know of DVC.

Secondly-there are also rental markets that drop room rates dramatically as well. Even POLY DVC rented at $13 is under $200 before a tax rate.

I'm not so sure buying a week at POLY for $165 ($19,470) direct from WDW is that bad of an option. If you stay at the POLY anyway (and many do), the room on dues is only about $100 a night and no tax. As long as you can assume your $19,470 initial investment holds. It is an asset, similar to buying a home, and likely much better than buying a car.

Actually can that be? My minds rambling sorry.

 

[pilferk]

Ah...thanks minnie-apple-mouse. That reminds me of ANOTHER savings on top of the room rate....we're not paying tax, on top of the room rate, either. Because that $507 a night is really more like $540 a night, in practical terms.

*runs off to update spreadsheet*

 

[Andrew015]

Most of the "complaints" of the 2000's would have to come from repeat visitors. Otherwise how would a guest even know when what was built-much less what the past costs were?

I translate that to read that only folks who visited frequently were going to know that they were being screwed, so the hell with everyone else.

It's a % no doubt, but it is there so my argument holds for them anyway.

Again, it holds for about 2-3% of the WDW-going population that has purchased DVC via resale. Therefore, I'm going to say that it doesn't hold water, as it means nothing to the remaining ~97%.

Folks too ignorant to look into such savings are not my or WDW's fault.

So now people that 1.) don't know of resale DVC or 2.) can't afford it are ignorant? Got it.

The repeat visitors know of DVC.

Again, how many know of resale? And of that bunch, how many can afford it? You keep focusing on the small minority and are absolutely running over the vast majority. If this thread were "Can you do WDW cost-effectively", you're arguments hold water. So would pitching a tent in Fort Wilderness. Unfortunately, your points don't apply to 90+% of visitors who are paying unjustifiable prices regardless of whether or not they know it. Is it good business? Sure - it's great for stockholders. However, terrible for consumers.

 

[Andrew015]

I have never come close to saying all guests have enjoyed resort stay savings through DVC. But many have-and during the era in question, WDW/DVC was huge savings for many folks-that is my point about that era, it wasn't all bad.

Now responding to your edits. While you may not have outright said this, you're entire counter-argument has been centered around the tremendous savings that were available to those that have purchased DVC via resale. I'm simply telling you what a small subset of people is represented by that group. If you ran into 100 people in the park, ~97 of them wouldn't be able to enjoy those savings.

I'm not so sure buying a week at POLY for $165 ($19,470) direct from WDW is that bad of an option. If you stay at the POLY anyway (and many do), the room on dues is only about $100 a night and no tax. As long as you can assume your $19,470 initial investment holds. It is an asset, similar to buying a home, and likely much better than buying a car.

Actually can that be? My minds rambling sorry.

Now you're getting into some discussion that I can wrap my head around I've pondered this, too. It's hard to think of a timeshare as an investment (my finance background wants very strongly to put it into the liabilities side of the balance sheet), but looking at what resale values have done in recent years, it always has my mind going. I think the better option would be to wait a few years and try to get it ~$20-30/point cheaper. However, for anyone that is a dedicate Poly person, it's not a bad avenue either way.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

Now responding to your edits. While you may not have outright said this, you're entire counter-argument has been centered around the tremendous savings that were available to those that have purchased DVC via resale. I'm simply telling you what a small subset of people is represented by that group. If you ran into 100 people in the park, ~97 of them wouldn't be able to enjoy those savings.

And 97 would not have a clue what was/wasn't built from 2000 to 2010, and probably no previews cost comparisons either. That's my point. The ones in the know were offered extreme resort stay savings, park pass discounts, in room cooking and ME.

If that's 25% or whatever-they (WDW) deserve the credit those programs offered/provided.

Now you're getting into some discussion that I can wrap my head around I've pondered this, too. It's hard to think of a timeshare as an investment (my finance background wants very strongly to put it into the liabilities side of the balance sheet), but looking at what resale values have done in recent years, it always has my mind going. I think the better option would be to wait a few years and try to get it ~$20-30/point cheaper.

Here's where I'm at.

If I did not have any DVC contracts right now, or not enough points, and there was no resale market-I would 100% for sure buy direct.

I do look at the POLY being $100 a night with the current DVC, why would I pay $700, $400 or even $200 rental?

Yes $20K down for a week there is a lot-but don't even ask what we have spent on cars and other crap that I would instantly eliminate to make it happen if needed.

That and at $500 plus a night-$20K drains faster than you think. 4 10 day stays.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

You can stay in a Polynesian bungalow for 2,000 a night how many middle class families can afford that plus food plus tickets plus all of the Mickey and Olaf plushes that the kids want.

I sort of get these threads. But Disney didn't build Polynesian bungalows for the middle class. VERY VERY few Disney guests are going to stay in a Polynesian bungalow. It would be more realistic to think about whether middle class families can afford to stay in a value or moderate resort, or buy DVC if they want to visit every year (maybe on the resale market which is highly discounted). To save even more money, there are plenty of offsite resorts, some with park shuttles. As for food, that can be controlled, plus WDW is one of the few theme parks that allow guests to bring in their own food - that would save big. One stuffed critter per kid is not going to cost THAT much and who here actually buys the kids every single thing they ask for? The biggest and most intractable cost facing WDW guests is airfare. If you have to fly there, you've got to pay an airline, and while you can get lucky, there isn't much you can do about the price of that particular commodity which is now soaring as high as the planes.

When Disney boards talk about the cost they seem to be talking about the whole shebang - deluxe Disney resort or villa, character dining every day, hopper tix, numerous souvenirs. One reason the parks are so crowded is that not everybody does pay for that stuff.

 

[rteetz]

When Disney boards talk about the cost they seem to be talking about the whole shebang - deluxe Disney resort or villa, character dining every day, hopper tix, numerous souvenirs. One reason the parks are so crowded is that not everybody does pay for that stuff.

I agree to a point. Disney has and will continue to offer more of those deluxe option so that means people must be paying for them if they create more of them. The poly bungalows now we are getting cabins at the WL. I don't think it stops there either. Then you have hard ticket events and everything else add one keep adding on and people keep paying for them. That's why people talk about the deluxe offerings so much.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

Is it really that bad to be a guest who can't afford a Poly bungalow or a WL cabin or a $200 add on package? It's being talked about like everyone who goes to WDW actually really wants those things, and they can't be happy with a room at Pop Century and just a regular day in the parks.

I guess they could have scrapped the bungalows and built a high rise somewhere and charge even less than the all stars per room, that might have gotten a different reaction than "oh the entire Disney experience is just for the rich now."

 

[Kobey]

I guess I'm different from most people. I'm always amazed by what they do with the money they get. Maybe it wouldn't look the same if I had actual figures and expenditures to look at, but that's too much like math and I don't do math anymore unless I have no choice. But when I look at what it costs me just to put in a little garden or shed or do improvements on the house, I can't help but wonder how Disney keeps up with paying all the employees, maintaining everything and building new stuff. When I look at something like the Tree of Life, I say, "Wow! That one piece of scenery probably cost more than I'll make in a lifetime." So the high cost of going there seems like a fair trade to me for everything I get out of it.

A Disney vacation for me is still something special. I've been planning this next one for the last 5 years.

 

[pilferk]

I guess I'm different from most people. I'm always amazed by what they do with the money they get. Maybe it wouldn't look the same if I had actual figures and expenditures to look at, but that's too much like math and I don't do math anymore unless I have no choice. But when I look at what it costs me just to put in a little garden or shed or do improvements on the house, I can't help but wonder how Disney keeps up with paying all the employees, maintaining everything and building new stuff. When I look at something like the Tree of Life, I say, "Wow! That one piece of scenery probably cost more than I'll make in a lifetime." So the high cost of going there seems like a fair trade to me for everything I get out of it.

A Disney vacation for me is still something special. I've been planning this next one for the last 5 years.

Given the happenings of the past year or so...that's a sore subject (cost to build/maintain vs the Tree of Life).

 

[Andrew015]

I guess I'm different from most people. I'm always amazed by what they do with the money they get. Maybe it wouldn't look the same if I had actual figures and expenditures to look at, but that's too much like math and I don't do math anymore unless I have no choice. But when I look at what it costs me just to put in a little garden or shed or do improvements on the house, I can't help but wonder how Disney keeps up with paying all the employees, maintaining everything and building new stuff. When I look at something like the Tree of Life, I say, "Wow! That one piece of scenery probably cost more than I'll make in a lifetime."

Try looking at TWDC's annual report. Pay special attention to the executive compensation section. I have a very similar reaction when I see that one person - Bob Iger - made close to $44 Million in 2014 compensation alone. Trust me, the Tree of Life has nothing on Mr. Iger's bank account.

I'm not discounting the fact that maintenance is a big nugget. However, it's literally a drop in the bucket as compared to the cash that is brought in on a daily basis. Think of Uncle Scrooge's money vault and start multiplying.

 

[oddman]

seems to me many posters here are grossly overestimating the true disposable income that middle class America has.

Most of the middle class is hardly able to afford a basic vacation never mind staying onsite in high end hotels, paying for every meal and those pricey entrance fees.
Disney world costs more, flights cost more, food costs more and wages are stagnant for years now.


Don't think that we , the posters on this board are in anyway shape or form a reflection of the average middle class American family. This is a fan site, full of fans the people here are the least likely to say Disney is too costly, or too full, or too hot or too slow.

pretty much every comment needs to be discounted just as you would discount the words of a salesman.

Your motivation to visit is much stronger than the average visitor. You are more elastic in pricing terms than the average visitor, you are prepared to spend more money time and effort than the average visitor.

just as an apple fan will pay $600 or more for an iPhone and argue that the iPhone is cheap because of blah blah blah, a Disney fan will empty bank accounts into a single visit and spend days telling people how good a deal it was.



the truth is a Disney trip costs a lot more than it did 10-15 years ago, (in adjusted dollars) and it is patently clear that at some level a percentage of the middle class now finds Disney harder to pay for than they would have circa 2000. It is just math.

 

[Andrew015]

the truth is a Disney trip costs a lot more than it did 10-15 years ago, (in adjusted dollars) and it is patently clear that at some level a percentage of the middle class now finds Disney harder to pay for than they would have circa 2000. It is just math.

Summed up perfectly right here.

 

[FrostMommy]

We are a single income family with four kiddos, and we still find going to Disney to be worth our vacation dollars. We are DVC owners, about to take our first DVC trip, which was done because we realized it would help save money in the long run because our vacation preferences were not changing. With a family of six, getting a room to accommodate everything is a pain in the bottom, and the villas it the bill perfectly, as well as being on property, which my husband likes.

While Disney tickets are going up, there are many other examples of prices going up. We just moved to Texas, but when we were in Utah, I took the kids to the state fair a few times for homeschool field trips. For regular admission, it was $10.00 per person for 12 and up. A wristband to ride on rides was an additional $28.00 per person (again, 12 and up). So...$38.00 for the day, which is a slight bit above a third of the cost of a Disney ticket. In my brutal opinion, it was no where near 1/3 of the value. The ride operators often were slightly creepy and very uninterested, the rides seemed unsafe, the lines were in the sun with no entertainment, and the smell of vomit was always present (and sometimes the sight of it as well). I never bought my kids the wrist bands; I am way to frugal for that. I will buy them Disney tickets though, because I feel that for the entertainment and fun it provides, it is still a decent value.

I feel I could give a similar opinion with the local theme park. It cost about half the price of a Disney ticket, but the entire family (especially hubby, haha) was bemoaning the fact that it was missing so many of the things we enjoyed about Disneyworld when we went.