DSLR Camera Question

[photo_chick]

"It's not the equipment, it's the person using it", I have hear this time and again and I just have to call BS.

Speaking in terms of averages (average people, average situations) there is just a world of difference between what a DSLR and a P&S will produce.

I would say that a complete dilettante with a 8 year old 6MP DSLR will produce far more good - exceptional photos than the same person shooting a comparably priced P&S.

I finally got to play with one of these new mirrorless jobs, a Lumix DMC-GF5, and I was not impressed. This was supposed to be a SOTA P&S-DSLR hybrid and it lost every feature that makes getting a DSLR worth it. Slow to focus, delays starting up, continuous mode ... can't even use the words for CM in polite company. I wouldn't trade my D80 for it.

I think you're missing the point. This is a tough lighting situation to shoot in. One that most cameras, even DSLR's, will come up short on in auto mode. So if someone is just playing around with settings hoping to hit on the right thing and clearly showing a lack of understanding in basic photographic knowledge then they're most likely still going to have the same kinds of problems with a DSLR. The OP gave the impression at first that they felt like a DSLR would be the answer to the problem (without learning anything) when the reality is the shots they want could be taken by a skilled photographer with a point and shoot and a tripod. I don't think anyone ever said a DSLR wouldn't do it better... only that it doesn't have to be done with a DSLR if you know how to get the shot. And it's not going to be just picking up a camera and shooting with any camera.

 

[captsparrowslady]

When numbers are given, even if it's arbitrary, it's all people have to go by.

There are several new DSLR's you can get into for under $1000 and that kind of money opens up a lot of options. I'd suggest you think about the features you want. Is video important to you? Outside of shooting theater do you think you may need something with a faster burst rate? Do you care if it's an EVF or an OVF?

And go to the store to get your hands on some of these cameras. Looking at specs and recommendations is all well and good but how the camera fits in your hands, how easy it is for you to reach the buttons, etc. is also important in my opinion.

You might also want to be wary of what you spend that un sub loan on. If it's a federal loan they can audit you (happened to a friend of mine last fall which is why I'm mentioning it). At that point you have to account for what was necessary for school. Make sure you can justify the camera as necessary to your classes or they might charge you more interest and penalties as well as reduce your future loan amounts.

I think video would be a nice feature to have, outside of theatre usage. Not sure what OVF & EVF mean, so I can't really answer that... I agree that the feel of a camera is also important, how it fits in your hands (especially since I have little hands, I'm only 4'10" so I have tiny hands and short fingers). One of the reasons I posted is because I'm really not all that knowledgeable about fancy cameras... to be honest, there's been some terminology thrown out that I'm not quite familiar with (smile and nod, pretend to understand until makes sense, ) For example, I've seen ISO on my little P&S camera but no clue what it is or what it really does.

As for the grants & loans, that's why I have the money put into my personal bank account and not the school's provided debit card account. I figure if it's in my personal account, unless they decide to randomly audit me with no real reason other than drawing my name out of a hat, they can't track what I spend my money on. However, that being said, I have been very good with budgeting my money down to the last penny. Buying a DSLR can easily be argued as needed for creating my design portfolio. My mommy taught me well when it comes to creating a budget and sticking to it. This cruise is really the first thing I'm spending my money on that is not directly school related and before I decided to do it, I made sure I could afford it without my school needs being affected. I put down the deposit in the fall last year, so I knew how much I had and how much I would have in the spring, so I was able to work out my budget for Fall & Spring to determine if I would have any extra money left over by the end of the school semesters, which obviously I did. I figure if I had to, I could argue it as well needed stress relief, first vacation in *years* and I'm only going to be missing two classes (my theatre design classes, and I figure if I can get myself slightly ahead of schedule, doing the things that are due the days I miss early, I won't be behind when I get back). My college doesn't require or ask us to turn in a list of what we've spent our monies on, and has told me that we can spend it on whatever we want to, they don't care. Obviously it's a good idea to spend it on school related expenses, but anything you have left over after school expenses, it's yours to do with what you want.

I think you're missing the point. This is a tough lighting situation to shoot in. One that most cameras, even DSLR's, will come up short on in auto mode. So if someone is just playing around with settings hoping to hit on the right thing and clearly showing a lack of understanding in basic photographic knowledge then they're most likely still going to have the same kinds of problems with a DSLR. The OP gave the impression at first that they felt like a DSLR would be the answer to the problem (without learning anything) when the reality is the shots they want could be taken by a skilled photographer with a point and shoot and a tripod. I don't think anyone ever said a DSLR wouldn't do it better... only that it doesn't have to be done with a DSLR if you know how to get the shot. And it's not going to be just picking up a camera and shooting with any camera.

I understand that there will be a learning curve. I've never said that I won't have to learn anything. In fact, I've said several times now that I understand that I will need to learn how to use my camera properly. I even expressed in a previous post that once I get my camera it would probably be beneficial to find a photography shop that offers workshops or classes so I can have a professional teach me how to properly use my shiny new camera. I know that a Point & Shoot is called such, because any 2 year old or idiot can pick it up, point it and take a picture without any skill or knowledge beyond which button to push to take the photo. I also know that a DSLR is *NOT* a Point & Shoot. It's a camera you'd keep away from a child, and an idiot probably would be confused by most if not all of the settings. I'm not an idiot, I'm not ignorant, I *know* I will have to learn whatever camera I get, which is why I have said in previous posts, the earlier in the year I can get the camera, the more time I have to play around with it (Read: LEARN How to Use it Properly) before I actually need to use it during photo call and have no clue what I'm doing with it.

 

[photo_chick]

captsparrowslady... I'm not sure if you're reading the whole post and I think you're missing the fact that what was said was a response to another poster. In reference to your first posts and how it came across. You've said that you get there will be a learning curve since then. So please don't all caps yell at me. And I will disagree on DSLR's for kids... mine love to use my cameras. Of course they both learned on all manual film cameras.

As far as the loans... it has nothing to do with how you get the money or if the university can track it. Federal loans (not private loans) are for living and education expenses only (my financial aid office pointed this fact out to me). I have no idea how the federal government decides who it will audit but I've seen enough of what happens to those who get audited to know that I don't ever want to be on the receiving end. It was just a friendly heads up.

OVF is optical view finder. EVF is electronic view finder. For some it makes a difference, for others it does not. DSLR's have an optical view finder. The Sony SLT's mentioned have an electronic view finder. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Make sure you're good with whichever you go with.

I'm just shy of 5'. Size 3.5 shoes and my ten year old's hands are bigger than mine now. The smaller entry level cameras actually fit my hands better. I have larger cameras for the features but if I could get all that in an entry level size I totally would. If you're like me then definitely get into the store to play.

edited to add... I didn't quote your last post because I really didn't want to post all that giant type into the page again, but I was in fact responding to the post above mine.

 

[captsparrowslady]

captsparrowslady... I'm not sure if you're reading the whole post and I think you're missing the fact that what was said was a response to another poster. In reference to your first posts and how it came across. You've said that you get there will be a learning curve since then. So please don't all caps yell at me. And I will disagree on DSLR's for kids... mine love to use my cameras. Of course they both learned on all manual film cameras.

As far as the loans... it has nothing to do with how you get the money or if the university can track it. Federal loans (not private loans) are for living and education expenses only (my financial aid office pointed this fact out to me). I have no idea how the federal government decides who it will audit but I've seen enough of what happens to those who get audited to know that I don't ever want to be on the receiving end. It was just a friendly heads up.

OVF is optical view finder. EVF is electronic view finder. For some it makes a difference, for others it does not. DSLR's have an optical view finder. The Sony SLT's mentioned have an electronic view finder. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Make sure you're good with whichever you go with.

I'm just shy of 5'. Size 3.5 shoes and my ten year old's hands are bigger than mine now. The smaller entry level cameras actually fit my hands better. I have larger cameras for the features but if I could get all that in an entry level size I totally would. If you're like me then definitely get into the store to play.

Sorry, I've just been reading several posts that seem to be questioning my willingness to learn how to use the fancy DSLR camera... It was getting annoying that I felt the need to repeat myself that I knew I had to learn how to use it... I just woke up from a nap when I posted that, so I might not have read it in the right tone of voice or something like that...

I'd say you're brave to let your kids (depending on age) to use your DSLR... I'd be afraid to let young kids use such an expensive camera... I'd be afraid they'd accidentally break it or something...

I live on grants & loans... I wouldn't be able to go to school without them. I'm a full time student, so my grants & loans pay for my tuition, books, gas money, food money, car maintenance, car insurance, school supplies, clothes, etc. Luckily I live with my parents so I don't have to pay rent/utilities.

And yeah, I'm 4'10", shoe size about a 6/6.5... to give an idea of my hand size, I have a keyboard and if I stretch my fingers as far as I can, I can almost reach a full octave... but only if I keep my fingers close to the edge of the keys not the middle of the keys. lol.

 

[havoc315]

works out to being a bit more than $1000 (before tax... I hate living in a sales tax state... I didn't used to... lol) Is there a less expensive body that's maybe easier to find (read: not discontinued)?

Each of these items can easily be found on eBay, just look for a reputable seller. I shoot with the A55 which is really quite good. You can get a mint condition used body for around $400-$450.
"New" Sony currently sells the a58 for $550 --- but it is inferior to the a55 and a57 (weird branding), and the a65/77 (both more expensive)

Buying used/discontinued will give you a better camera for a cheaper price. Also true of lenses. All my lenses were bought second hand, never had a real problem.

 

[captsparrowslady]

Each of these items can easily be found on eBay, just look for a reputable seller. I shoot with the A55 which is really quite good. You can get a mint condition used body for around $400-$450.
"New" Sony currently sells the a58 for $550 --- but it is inferior to the a55 and a57 (weird branding), and the a65/77 (both more expensive)

Buying used/discontinued will give you a better camera for a cheaper price. Also true of lenses. All my lenses were bought second hand, never had a real problem.

I don't do eBay... I use craigslist for second hand stuff... but I'd rather buy from a store in person (I'm not opposed to used or discontinued, it just sounded like it would be hard to find something that's been discontinued, or that it would be sold out by the time I had the money for it).

 

[havoc315]

My 6 and 8 year olds have both used my dSLR and my compact. My compact point and shoot is more advanced and more expensive than my dSLR.

I think some people have been thrown back by the suggestion that if you take time to learn the settings, you will be taking professional level photographs.

A decent point and shoot has the same settings as a dSLR. My kids use my dSLR on full auto, no differently than you use a point and shoot on full auto. July 4th, my son took fireworks pics with the Rx100 while I used the dSLR. (Technically Sony dslt)
Every consumer camera on the market today can point and shoot pretty effectively.

To master low light photography, you need to understand ISO, aperture, etc.

Which would be better for low light?
ISO 1600
50mm lens with aperture set to 1.8
Shutter at 1/30

OR
ISO 200
50mm lens at 4.5
Shutter at 1/100

Learning these basics would let you get better low light pictures with your point and shoot. But a dSLR has more potential.

Read the manual -- it will teach you which button changes the ISO. But you need to learn what ISO does, how it interacts with the other settings, how it affects noise, etc.

As to OVF (traditional dSLRs ) and EVF (mirrorless cameras and Sony dSLTs), see Zackie's very helpful summary above.

 

[havoc315]

I don't do eBay... I use craigslist for second hand stuff... but I'd rather buy from a store in person (I'm not opposed to used or discontinued, it just sounded like it would be hard to find something that's been discontinued, or that it would be sold out by the time I had the money for it).

If you're in a city like New York, B&H has a big used dept, as well as all the new options.

When it comes to good photography equipment, your main stream big box stores are pretty limited. Limited selection of camera bodies, and practically non existent selection of lenses. And you're paying more for "new."

For a decent selection, you need to find a very very good photography store.
And you will pay a lot more.
Examples -- the Tamron 17-50 I recommended, made for all camera brands -- under $300 on eBay. $500 new (and lenses can last forever)
The Minolta 70-210 f4 is 20+ years old, they don't make anything quite like it today for Sony cameras. Canon has a similar new lens, it's $629. (Image quality will be similar, but the new canon will have quiet focusing as opposed to the 20-year-old Minolta which has a traditional screw autofocus )

Of course, remember, that each Camera brand can only use lenses designed to match the brand.

 

[captsparrowslady]

If you're in a city like New York, B&H has a big used dept, as well as all the new options.

When it comes to good photography equipment, your main stream big box stores are pretty limited. Limited selection of camera bodies, and practically non existent selection of lenses. And you're paying more for "new."

For a decent selection, you need to find a very very good photography store.
And you will pay a lot more.
Examples -- the Tamron 17-50 I recommended, made for all camera brands -- under $300 on eBay. $500 new (and lenses can last forever)
The Minolta 70-210 f4 is 20+ years old, they don't make anything quite like it today for Sony cameras. Canon has a similar new lens, it's $629. (Image quality will be similar, but the new canon will have quiet focusing as opposed to the 20-year-old Minolta which has a traditional screw autofocus )

Of course, remember, that each Camera brand can only use lenses designed to match the brand.

I'm in Mesa, AZ. I tried to google 'photography shop' or 'Camera shop' for Mesa, but I haven't really come up with much... I haven't lived here long enough to really know what sort of specialty stores are around so I don't really know any places by name to google...

 

[havoc315]

I'm in Mesa, AZ. I tried to google 'photography shop' or 'Camera shop' for Mesa, but I haven't really come up with much... I haven't lived here long enough to really know what sort of specialty stores are around so I don't really know any places by name to google...

I doubt you have much nearby. At a target or Best Buy, you can get a feel for a couple Nikons and Canons in your hand, but not all the available models. Best Buy sometimes will carry a Sony model, not always. Doubt you will see a Pentax. In today's day and age, I think you'll find that people interested in more serious photography, buy online.
The big stores focus on broadly marketed low and mid priced cameras, mostly entry level.

By the way, the previously mentioned Sony A57 is still available new on Amazon, $484 for body. That's less than you fill find for an entry level dSLR in a big store, and it's really a mid-level camera.

 

[Frantasmic]

http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=used+camera+equipment&find_loc=Phoenix,+AZ

here are places nearby that have used photography equipment.

Tempe Cameras look really good.

http://www.tempecamera.biz/Used_Equipment_at_Tempe_Camera_s/436.htm

I think a used Canon 50D or a used Canon 60D (both $599) would be good. Then, get one of the smaller fixed lenses (Canon 35 f2 or 50 f1.4). Then, add the 55-250 and you would be at a good starting point for your price range.

 

[havoc315]

http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=used+camera+equipment&find_loc=Phoenix,+AZ

here are places nearby that have used photography equipment.

Tempe Cameras look really good.

http://www.tempecamera.biz/Used_Equipment_at_Tempe_Camera_s/436.htm

I think a used Canon 50D or a used Canon 60D (both $599) would be good. Then, get one of the smaller fixed lenses (Canon 35 f2 or 50 f1.4). Then, add the 55-250 and you would be at a good starting point for your price range.

Their prices are very high for used. Amazon had the 60d new for $599. (Clearance due to 70d)

The 55-250 is a good lens, but not helpful in low light.

Those do look like decent camera shops but still with limited selection. Don't see any Sony or Pentax.

 

[MAJPLO]

To get a feel for some cameras I looked at the big box stores including Costco. Not really liking any of the cameras I was considering, I ordered from Costco online knowing that if what I ordered wasn't what I'd be happy with I could easily return it. I got a Pentax which I couldn't find in any store so I was taking a chance. I LOVE it. I have small hands and this camera is a little bigger than some of the ones I looked at in the stores but the way it's designed fits me much better.

If you don't already have it, you should be eligible (student) for a free or discounted Prime account with Amazon. As long as you are buying from a reputable seller, that can help you out on shipping costs. Others have mentioned B&H photo and Adorama as good options for used or refurbished once you decide what you want.

Elsewhere on this board some good suggestions for reading have been The Digital Exposure Handbook and Understanding Exposure. Understanding Exposure also gives access to some online tutorials I think.

Have fun and enjoy learning.

 

[photo_chick]

I don't do eBay... I use craigslist for second hand stuff... but I'd rather buy from a store in person (I'm not opposed to used or discontinued, it just sounded like it would be hard to find something that's been discontinued, or that it would be sold out by the time I had the money for it).

If you go used check out KEH.com. It's not buying in person but they actually stand behind what the sell used, unlike buying off CL or other places, with a 6 month warranty. And they have a reputation for grading lower than an item is. that means if you get an E+ item it will most likely look like new to you. And if it's like new graded you're going to have a hard time telling anyone ever used it. My bargain lens from them had one scuff on it and a tiny bit of dust that in no way affects picture quality. They also have outstanding customer service.

Another option is refurbished. You can save a good chunk of money when Canon has sales on the refurbished on their site. Not sure if other brands have as much savings as I don't watch their prices that closely.

 

[traylorc]

I'm in Mesa, AZ. I tried to google 'photography shop' or 'Camera shop' for Mesa, but I haven't really come up with much... I haven't lived here long enough to really know what sort of specialty stores are around so I don't really know any places by name to google...

If you don't mind journeying outside of Mesa...you might want to consider Foto Forum in Phoenix (on the corner of 7th street and Camelback). They have new and used photo equipment, and the folks are really good about explaining the pros and cons of whatever piece of equipment you are considering purchasing. I have purchased 4-5 items (new and used) from these guys and have not been disappointed.

 

[captsparrowslady]

If you don't mind journeying outside of Mesa...you might want to consider Foto Forum in Phoenix (on the corner of 7th street and Camelback). They have new and used photo equipment, and the folks are really good about explaining the pros and cons of whatever piece of equipment you are considering purchasing. I have purchased 4-5 items (new and used) from these guys and have not been disappointed.

Cool... I checked out their website and I think I might just go there. I read up on the mini bios of the sales staff and it said that the love of photography overwhelmed his love of theatre (and baseball)... so it sounds like this is the place to go for my camera needs. It's not too far from my college, so once I get my money, if I can fit a camera into my budget, I can go there from school. Are their prices pretty reasonable?

 

[traylorc]

Cool... I checked out their website and I think I might just go there. I read up on the mini bios of the sales staff and it said that the love of photography overwhelmed his love of theatre (and baseball)... so it sounds like this is the place to go for my camera needs. It's not too far from my college, so once I get my money, if I can fit a camera into my budget, I can go there from school. Are their prices pretty reasonable?

I would say that their retail prices for new products are similar to what you would see for new products sold across the country. Their used prices are pretty good...not the lowest...but they are pretty good. I like the fact that you can try out the used items prior to purchase, and you have qualified salespeople that can effectively answer your questions. And they do it in a way that doesn't feel like they are pressuring you to make the purchase.

 

[captsparrowslady]

I would say that their retail prices for new products are similar to what you would see for new products sold across the country. Their used prices are pretty good...not the lowest...but they are pretty good. I like the fact that you can try out the used items prior to purchase, and you have qualified salespeople that can effectively answer your questions. And they do it in a way that doesn't feel like they are pressuring you to make the purchase.

Awesome!