Epcot to get major transformations

[pkrieger2287]

I know this is probably just to be expected, but it still blows my mind to even think about. Did they put a gold plated liner on all the scenery before the painted it white like snow? How do you blow through $150 million unless you're paying top tier imagineers to sit around picking their nose for months?

How can you put out blockbuster movies for $150 million and destroy small cities for one big cinematic shot, and you spend the exact same amount on redoing a ride that already exists???? (I'm a cheapo so I guess I'll never know).

The most recent theme appears to be to put it all into one very impressive animatronic which only works every third Thursday depending upon wind conditions...

 

[rteetz]

The most recent theme appears to be to put it all into one very impressive animatronic which only works every third Thursday depending upon wind conditions...

While Frozen has had some AA issues it works more often than that.

 

[bladiator]

Disney has a budget problem...

You said a mouthful.

How in the world can you be so money hungry and then be so horrible at budgeting? Are they just including things like catered meals for the workers? And they're getting the catered meals FROM an Epcot pavilion so that they can write off a ton more money by buying overpriced things from themselves? Are they buying the supplies from themselves? Are they paying for rights to their own characters to themselves?

Or do they just pinch every penny until they finally decide to do something and then bring out the Scrooge McDuck money bin and empty it on everyone within a 5 mile radius?

 

[umichigan10]

You said a mouthful.

How in the world can you be so money hungry and then be so horrible at budgeting? Are they just including things like catered meals for the workers? And they're getting the catered meals FROM an Epcot pavilion so that they can write off a ton more money by buying overpriced things from themselves? Are they buying the supplies from themselves? Are they paying for rights to their own characters to themselves?

Or do they just pinch every penny until they finally decide to do something and then bring out the Scrooge McDuck money bin and empty it on everyone within a 5 mile radius?

When I'm there I'll stand around the walls at the studios and see if any benjamins float my way

 

[rteetz]

You said a mouthful.

How in the world can you be so money hungry and then be so horrible at budgeting? Are they just including things like catered meals for the workers? And they're getting the catered meals FROM an Epcot pavilion so that they can write off a ton more money by buying overpriced things from themselves? Are they buying the supplies from themselves? Are they paying for rights to their own characters to themselves?

Or do they just pinch every penny until they finally decide to do something and then bring out the Scrooge McDuck money bin and empty it on everyone within a 5 mile radius?

Disney has always been not so great with budgets. They got a lot better in the 80s-90s when building things but it got worse again. When Walt built Disneyland that went over budget, Epcot was over budget, AK, the list goes on.

 

[George4]

I have little doubt that they went massively over budget - which the management will never publically own due to stock implications.

I think avatar was more like a $600-$750 final tab. Tough for disney to work on anything for that long and not rack up that kind of a bill.

Fair point. I think my general comment about projects and costs is still reasonably valid though, since there is no massively themed world to create in EPCOT like they did in Pandora.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

As for the new Pavilion - yes I think by Epcot 40th we will get ONE Pavilion - there is rumors of up to 3 but I am betting only one. Gut feel is Brazil will be it.

Wow...ok...how to phrase this?

Um...I know you like the rumors everyday type thing...and I'm giving benefit of the doubt on a lot of these things...

...but how long have you been following e-rumor updates on wdwmagic, et al?

...cause "Brazil to Epcot" is one of the oldest snipe hunts in the book.

There's a few problems:
1. There's a 30 year history of countries not being added. Without access to the disney boardroom...you have to trust that the finances/business analysis of this is flawed or more likely out and out destroyed. They had spots for 9 expansions and NOTHING has happened forever. My take is blame the internet...but I might be wrong. About the reason...not the model being all but dead.
2. Brazil...if you're not a fan of economics...is in a consumer credit/financial nosedive. I know we see the flags all over the place and you think it would "make sense"...but it makes almost the least sense. That tourism is all but certain to dry up. They got credit around 1990 and have been "in college" with it ever since. Some people don't follow how awful it really is...but it did get some press with the Olympics/World Cup the last couple of years. Those Olympic facilities are already destroyed...in record time. That country is in deep trouble.
3. And my favorite: "for the 40th"...
This one gets me (as many well know). I try to be fair...but every "insider" does this. The last big "anniversary" attempt that involved capex was "100 years of magic" and those things Peaked earlier for 25 and millennium. I suppose you can say year of a million dreams was a decent attempt at event with investment...but that was already 12 years ago.

That was an Eisner strategy...and it's been abandoned.

Now...they may bother for 2021...that is the one shot you have. But for "the 40th"? That's a fool's chase. They bring Marty sklar out for a 5 minute speech and dump some water into the fountains...not a $400 mil construction project with a deadline. It is what is and that's what it has been.

If Epcot is to be funded...it's based on profit analysis and operational necessity...not calendar dates.


And on that: any reorganization that doesn't address the loss of wonders of life and imagination in futureworld lacks a ton of validity...those are losses of attractions that pulled crowds at one time and therefore have to still be compensated for if they want to pull crowds and squeeze more money out of the combined overhead costs for the park.

 

[PokoFive5]

Imagineers are just that, imagineers, not accountants. For that matter anyone on the building team in any part isn't in the money part. I'd have to say it falls more on accounting areas who allow their plans to be set over budget and continually allow them to spend more than originally planned in said budget.

That being said, if Disney building teams could pick up the pace a little, the tab at the end of the night might not be so shocking. There is plenty of blame to go around for budget problems.

 

[OSUZorba]

Imagineers are just that, imagineers, not accountants. For that matter anyone on the building team in any part isn't in the money part. I'd have to say it falls more on accounting areas who allow their plans to be set over budget and continually allow them to spend more than originally planned in said budget.

That being said, if Disney building teams could pick up the pace a little, the tab at the end of the night might not be so shocking. There is plenty of blame to go around for budget problems.

I know as an engineer outside of Disney, I am accountable for my budgets. I do the estimates, get them approved and then make sure I hold them. Yeah, the bean counters approve the budget, push cost cutting and yell at me of we are missing budget or schedule plans, but design engineers are almost always involved with cost. They is one of the big differences between an engineer and a scientist.

For a large construction project, its also heavily on the construction managers to hold cost/schedule.

I have a feeling Disney likes doing a lot of change orders, which kills budget and schedule.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I know as an engineer outside of Disney, I am accountable for my budgets. I do the estimates, get them approved and then make sure I hold them. Yeah, the bean counters approve the budget, push cost cutting and yell at me of we are missing budget or schedule plans, but design engineers are almost always involved with cost. They is one of the big differences between an engineer and a scientist.

For a large construction project, its also heavily on the construction managers to hold cost/schedule.

I have a feeling Disney likes doing a lot of change orders, which kills budget and schedule.

This is a "can of worms" thought pattern on this board...boy, have we debated WDI and it's current state with timeframes and budgets round here?

...but that's the problem...you don't want wdi to operate like the engineers/architects I keep company with in infrastructure and planning...

...but the media company can't handle both productivity and "art"

I give joe rohde the hard time he DESERVES because he can't do anything without treating it like he's josh baskin in BIG. You shouldn't have titles like "senior creative designer" and control the purse...at least not unchecked. It's not interpretive dance...it's construction and capital investment.

So the weasel entertainment accountants that bob deploys cut the resources, lengthen the timetables, and stop green lighting...

Everyone ends up frustrated...including most definitely the paying customer.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I know as an engineer outside of Disney, I am accountable for my budgets. I do the estimates, get them approved and then make sure I hold them. Yeah, the bean counters approve the budget, push cost cutting and yell at me of we are missing budget or schedule plans, but design engineers are almost always involved with cost. They is one of the big differences between an engineer and a scientist.

For a large construction project, its also heavily on the construction managers to hold cost/schedule.

I have a feeling Disney likes doing a lot of change orders, which kills budget and schedule.

I would also imagine that when you are doing something for the first time it is easy for budgets to get out of control. I am sure it took more effort and trial and error, etc. to get Flight of Passage to work than a typical non-Disney project for example. I also am sure things change a lot as they work on things and they see what is working, what isn't ... if they get a new idea or a new technology comes out they can add in, etc.

 

[adam.adbe]

Fair point. I think my general comment about projects and costs is still reasonably valid though, since there is no massively themed world to create in EPCOT like they did in Pandora.

Maybe, but FEA seemed to be beset with unexpected issues[1], and that was a pretty modest re-skin, and honestly, if the goal *is* to have Epcot be anything other than the world's largest shopping-mall-food-court, much of FW needs to be ripped down and replaced with buildings that have some kind of cohesive theme. If the rumors that FW is going to be rebranded are true, it's hard to imagine any theme that will drop down into that weird mix of brutalism, 80's futurism, and airport aesthetic without some serious effort.

I desperately want to believe that FW will be given over to someone with the clout to enforce a single cohesive theme that stays true to the broader spirit of the Epcot park[2], I'm just not willing to place money on it.

[1] Primarily mold I believe, but I'll let someone more knowledgeable attest to that.

[2] Even something as sanitized as simply making Epcot a straight 'celebrate our world and our culture/history' touchy-feely kind of affair and dropping any pretense at education would be better than just making it the home for stuff that didn't fit elsewhere.

 

[tlmadden73]

I too went to EPCOT as a teen and enjoyed it because it was new and innovative. My parents worked for MetLife and United Technologies so we were able to go to the employee lounge in both WOL and The Seas. It was very sad to see both of those sponsorships leave which was the start of the downward spiral.
I went in 2000 with two pre-teens (9 and 11) and took them to EPCOT first before we went to the other parks to ensure they would like it, and they did. It was educational but fun. But, it was not their favorite park after we went to the others. But, for first time visitors I always recommend this strategy.
As an adult, EPCOT is one of my favorite parks, but I miss the original rides, especially the original Journey into Imagination pavilion with the great movie and ride. I remember being upset when they changed the movie to Captain EO and then when they changed the ride. But, I guess they needed to keep things new and interesting to keep people coming which is what they are trying to do again.

I went to Epcot when it first opened in the early 80s and I loved it. I was fascinated with all the Future World Pavilions -- all the logos each one had and all the rides were fascinating to a middle school me. The World Showcase was boring (too long of a walk in the hot sun), but still fascinating to see. But for me . Future World was the bomb .. I loved all the animatronic rides. I loved all the "games" you could play in each pavilion to learn any more. It was a giant science museum! I would love to take my son (in a few years) to THAT version of Epcot,

Except every time I kept going back .. it was different (and not always for the better). Horizons was changed to a boring and chaotic space simulator. World of Motion is just a thrill ride now . .the Seas has this pointless Nemo overlay. Journey Into Imagination is different. The innovative (at the time) theatre just shows Pixar shorts. The Wonders of Life pavilion just fell into dissuse even though having a Star Tours like ride and other attractions in it. Innoventions has nothing in it now but some Meet and Greets ..

Spaceship Earth and the Land are the only pavilions I remember as they were (and the Land got better with Soaring).

I guess Epcot was too tied to "sponsorships" and when those dried up or changed ... the attractions suffered.

Just like Hollywood Studios slowly was bled dry of its "making of movies" theme .. Epcot was slowly bled dry of its "education" theme and needs an overhaul.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I went to Epcot when it first opened in the early 80s and I loved it. I was fascinated with all the Future World Pavilions -- all the logos each one had and all the rides were fascinating to a middle school me. The World Showcase was boring (too long of a walk in the hot sun), but still fascinating to see. But for me . Future World was the bomb .. I loved all the animatronic rides. I loved all the "games" you could play in each pavilion to learn any more. It was a giant science museum! I would love to take my son (in a few years) to THAT version of Epcot,

Except every time I kept going back .. it was different (and not always for the better). Horizons was changed to a boring and chaotic space simulator. World of Motion is just a thrill ride now . .the Seas has this pointless Nemo overlay. Journey Into Imagination is different. The innovative (at the time) theatre just shows Pixar shorts. The Wonders of Life pavilion just fell into dissuse even though having a Star Tours like ride and other attractions in it. Innoventions has nothing in it now but some Meet and Greets ..

Spaceship Earth and the Land are the only pavilions I remember as they were (and the Land got better with Soaring).

I guess Epcot was too tied to "sponsorships" and when those dried up or changed ... the attractions suffered.

Just like Hollywood Studios slowly was bled dry of its "making of movies" theme .. Epcot was slowly bled dry of its "education" theme and needs an overhaul.

Fully agree - I think the key is to figure out how to do that overhaul, that won't require sponsorships, leverages their IPs to some extent (as that is an asset they have and makes sense to use) while still keeping the feel of the park to be unique and different to the others parks. I love that the 4 parks each are different and don't want them to become Magic Kingdom and 3 lesser version of Magic Kingdom

 

[bladiator]

It's not interpretive dance...it's construction and capital investment.

Your wordsmithing is exotic. Almost coaxed the coffee right on to the screen.

The innovative (at the time) theatre just shows Pixar shorts.

Although I will always think this theater peaked with HISTA, I have to admit that the first short (with Mickey, Pete and crew) is pretty visually impressive with how they just jump out of the screen (and keeps me coming back). The other shorts stink and have no place in a 3d theater. I am held captive in that room having to watch "La Luna" as the consequence of wanting to watch the first one.

 

[tlmadden73]

Fully agree - I think the key is to figure out how to do that overhaul, that won't require sponsorships, leverages their IPs to some extent (as that is an asset they have and makes sense to use) while still keeping the feel of the park to be unique and different to the others parks. I love that the 4 parks each are different and don't want them to become Magic Kingdom and 3 lesser version of Magic Kingdom

I don't think the parks will ever become 3 lesser versions of MK. AK theme is still intact and I don't ever see that going away. Just not sure what the next expansion or refurb would be there (not that it needs it after Pandora . .though it is still a little light on attractions for the crowds).

DHS is still "movie" themed, but not "making of movies" themed. DHS is morphing into what Universal Studios has become ..movie-based attractions with immersive areas surrounding them. (Which is funny because DHS was created in response to Universal Studios' original vision - a working studio with attractions). After Star Wars and Toy Story Land are done . .i feel there is still work to be done at DHS .. Rock N Rollercoaster, Great Movie Ride, Indiana Jones Stunt show dont' really fit the theme anymore since the park isn't about the MAKING of movies, but more about being "INSIDE" the movies.

Well . it is obvious they are keeping the "World Showcase" theme . .just going to give it a bit more excitement with real attractions and not tourist movies. (which they should have done ages ago). I think making EVERY pavilion in World Showcase have a "Disney IP" theme is fine. As there are tons of movies that celebrate the culture of one of the particular lands which still allows the pavilions to be intact with shopping/restaurants with some attraction to draw people there and disperse crowds.

What to do with Future World is the question. If they toss in a Guardians of the Galaxy ride in Ellen's Energy Adventure, then Future World just becomes even more piecemeal. It is just hard to have a world that is focused on the "future" without totally revamping everything every 5-10 years.

 

[umichigan10]

I don't think the parks will ever become 3 lesser versions of MK. AK theme is still intact and I don't ever see that going away. Just not sure what the next expansion or refurb would be there (not that it needs it after Pandora . .though it is still a little light on attractions for the crowds).

DHS is still "movie" themed, but not "making of movies" themed. DHS is morphing into what Universal Studios has become ..movie-based attractions with immersive areas surrounding them. (Which is funny because DHS was created in response to Universal Studios' original vision - a working studio with attractions). After Star Wars and Toy Story Land are done . .i feel there is still work to be done at DHS .. Rock N Rollercoaster, Great Movie Ride, Indiana Jones Stunt show dont' really fit the theme anymore since the park isn't about the MAKING of movies, but more about being "INSIDE" the movies.

Well . it is obvious they are keeping the "World Showcase" theme . .just going to give it a bit more excitement with real attractions and not tourist movies. (which they should have done ages ago). I think making EVERY pavilion in World Showcase have a "Disney IP" theme is fine. As there are tons of movies that celebrate the culture of one of the particular lands which still allows the pavilions to be intact with shopping/restaurants with some attraction to draw people there and disperse crowds.

What to do with Future World is the question. If they toss in a Guardians of the Galaxy ride in Ellen's Energy Adventure, then Future World just becomes even more piecemeal. It is just hard to have a world that is focused on the "future" without totally revamping everything every 5-10 years.

Future world without the corporate investment as originally intended is a redundant tomorrowland in my mind

 

[jknezek]

Future world without the corporate investment as originally intended is a redundant tomorrowland in my mind

I would disagree. Futureworld without edutainment and full of IPs is a redundant Tomorrowland. FW with edutainment and hands on experiences is a different thing, even with a few IPs thrown in. Disney gets to choose the direction. I think we are going to get a redundant Tomorrowland, I hope we don't.

 

[Phicinfan]

Wow...ok...how to phrase this?

Um...I know you like the rumors everyday type thing...and I'm giving benefit of the doubt on a lot of these things...

...but how long have you been following e-rumor updates on wdwmagic, et al?

...cause "Brazil to Epcot" is one of the oldest snipe hunts in the book.

There's a few problems:
1. There's a 30 year history of countries not being added. Without access to the disney boardroom...you have to trust that the finances/business analysis of this is flawed or more likely out and out destroyed. They had spots for 9 expansions and NOTHING has happened forever. My take is blame the internet...but I might be wrong. About the reason...not the model being all but dead.
2. Brazil...if you're not a fan of economics...is in a consumer credit/financial nosedive. I know we see the flags all over the place and you think it would "make sense"...but it makes almost the least sense. That tourism is all but certain to dry up. They got credit around 1990 and have been "in college" with it ever since. Some people don't follow how awful it really is...but it did get some press with the Olympics/World Cup the last couple of years. Those Olympic facilities are already destroyed...in record time. That country is in deep trouble.
3. And my favorite: "for the 40th"...
This one gets me (as many well know). I try to be fair...but every "insider" does this. The last big "anniversary" attempt that involved capex was "100 years of magic" and those things Peaked earlier for 25 and millennium. I suppose you can say year of a million dreams was a decent attempt at event with investment...but that was already 12 years ago.

That was an Eisner strategy...and it's been abandoned.

Now...they may bother for 2021...that is the one shot you have. But for "the 40th"? That's a fool's chase. They bring Marty sklar out for a 5 minute speech and dump some water into the fountains...not a $400 mil construction project with a deadline. It is what is and that's what it has been.

If Epcot is to be funded...it's based on profit analysis and operational necessity...not calendar dates.


And on that: any reorganization that doesn't address the loss of wonders of life and imagination in futureworld lacks a ton of validity...those are losses of attractions that pulled crowds at one time and therefore have to still be compensated for if they want to pull crowds and squeeze more money out of the combined overhead costs for the park.

I understand the disbelief. I am only going by my normal tells...that being more than one source, and that those sources are trusted. Some of it is gut feel as well, so take that with a grain of salt as well.

What I am getting is WDW is getting updated after years and years of no real adds. You have major upheaval in DHS, you have a bit more being done to MK(I say a bit, but it could be an added ride in place of Speedway, but mostly TL upkeep). Add to that they have almost totally ignored Epcot other than Frozenstorm and new theater for Soar'n. So yeah, I see some money being invested and by all reports the have plans for all the parks(counting Pandora for DAK).

I do think there will be a Pavilion added. I think it will be added in 2 phases, first just Pavilion, and then maybe later an attraction.

As for timing....It is expected by 2021. Again, I just go by what I see and hear, and the quantity and quality.

But as always, plans can change, and as you have stated it happens alot.

 

[jade1]

New Pavilion/s also? I would visit that/those if built.