Eye opening article about Orlando wages.

[rg35]

As for minimum wage, my opinion is that the minimum wage shouldn't exist at all. Let the market decide.

The only thing "the market decides" in capitalism is towards profit. This is why adjusted for inflation, income has been stagnant for all but the highest earners in the U.S. for 40 years.

 

[rg35]

This may have been true fifty years ago but it's not any more.

If you think so then you should read about how Amazon treats its warehouse employees, or how risks of injury are much higher at factories like Tesla, who are a non-union shop.

 

[kymom99]

People need to earn a living wage. It used to be possible with unskilled jobs. "Being realistic" doesn't pay bills. This crisis is only going to grow.

Exactly. And look at the results. People won’t take those jobs and they go unfilled. Yet buildings still need to be cleaned. And restaurants can’t operate without servers. I think society is sending a message.

 

[RamblingMad]

The only thing "the market decides" in capitalism is towards profit. This is why adjusted for inflation, income has been stagnant for all but the highest earners in the U.S. for 40 years.

Unless you own a business, you’re pretty much screwed without employee protections. You don’t have to go back that far in history to see labor conditions before unions.

The poster is an employee, so the market can easily say their pay is too high. It’s fairly easy for businesses to collude to set low wages within a geographic area. They all agree to pay less. They fix the market. The employee has no where to go to get higher pay. This isn’t hard.

 

[punkin]

Unless you own a business, you’re pretty much screwed without employee protections. You don’t have to go back that far in history to see labor conditions before unions.

The poster is an employee, so the market can easily say their pay is too high. It’s fairly easy for businesses to collude to set low wages within a geographic area. They all agree to pay less. They fix the market. The employee has no where to go to get higher pay. This isn’t hard.

That's actually illegal, but go ahead, boil over with righteous indignation. After your revolution is successful and everyone has a living wage and free education and free medical care, I will join you in the bread line (or toilet paper queue or any other queue in your Socialist paradise) unless of course, I get sent to the GULAG for thought crimes against the motherland.

 

[RamblingMad]

That's actually illegal, but go ahead, boil over with righteous indignation. After your revolution is successful and everyone has a living wage and free education and free medical care, I will join you in the bread line (or toilet paper queue or any other queue in your Socialist paradise) unless of course, I get sent to the GULAG for thought crimes against the motherland.

That’s only illegal because employee protections exist. In the world with your free market, those protections no longer exist.

 

[Searc]

That's actually illegal, but go ahead, boil over with righteous indignation. After your revolution is successful and everyone has a living wage and free education and free medical care, I will join you in the bread line (or toilet paper queue or any other queue in your Socialist paradise) unless of course, I get sent to the GULAG for thought crimes against the motherland.

People who use the word 'socialism' when describing something they disagree with rarely use the word correctly. There are many socialist aspects of the US.

 

[Toolulu22]

What most people overlook is that there are many roads to Dublin - college is often not the smartest choice. As an earlier poster mentioned, trade school. Many local, state and federal agencies have generous grants avail to lower income residents for trade schools. Trade schools primarily serve working adults and are much more flexible and empathetic - they know they need to work around people's schedules and often provide more emotional and other support than traditional colleges to help students succeed.

This country is facing HUGE shortages of skilled trademen as boomers retire - we desperately need car mechanics, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc.

These jobs pay well and people usually can get apprenticeships after just 1-2 years of school. With a few years' experience, many can easily outearn quite a few college grads or even go into biz for themselves- and these jobs aren't outsourced either!

Why don't the K-12 systems promote that? Shop classes are gone. Most parents consider trade and vocational schools "beneath" their child - even though their child may not be suited for college.

It's a shame and a huge waste of potential talent and skills. Most people think "college" or "minimum wage future" with nothing in between. More has to be done to reach out to people stuck in minimum wage service jobs.

BUT people have to be willing to do something for "work" they love a little less - and use their leisure time to do what they truly love. The girl in the article voluntarily left a good paying rad tech healthcare job to work for Disney - she didn't just leave a particular job or bad situation- she ditched her entire training and career to work Disney front lines because it was what she loved.

"Do what you love" is wonderful and admirable if you can make it work - but I think it's bad advice for most people - especially people who have family obligations.

If what you love to do doesn't align with what organizations need or value...if it doesn't pay the bills or feed your kids, that's a choice one has to make. Millions of us have chosen to do something we hopefully like a little or can tolerate, but hardly consider our "dream" job. But in return, we have the funds to live, do what we want outside of work, build a secure future, and enjoy a secure retirement.

I realize this doesn't apply to everyone - there are always some extenuating circumstances, but frankly, I think for a lot of people, they either didn't get the right guidance and support to find a better path earlier on - or are determined to only do "what they love" - which in the real world, doesn't always work.

Stepping off soapbox now...

Agree that college is not for everyone, but tradeschools and apprenticeship programs are often competitive and not the ‘shop class’ of yesteryear. My school district still offers “shop classes” which is now called Industrial Arts and includes not only woodworking but technology and robotics courses. We also offer a vocational program for students to attend for part of the day, which they have to apply and qualify for (can’t be failing classes or truants etc) and includes programs in nursing, dental hygenist, cosmetology, auto mechanics, drafting, culinary arts, and criminal justice. A fair number of kids opt for this route and enjoy the option. My sister, who lives in NC, said they have similar options there. So, to say that shop classes are gone may be inaccurate. There are vocational training option available, and especially training for mentally challenged individuals in life skills classes so that they can go out a find real world jobs and succeed on their own. Your school district may offer something similar, but just not called “shop class” anymore.

That woman made a poor choice, unfortunately. I agree that many of us would love to quit our jobs and do something else- but, in facing reality we suck it up and look for opportunities that might make us happier but still bring in the money. I often count the years to retirement....

There was a good article in the Wall St. Journal today...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americ...ar-education-for-blue-collar-work-11575907185
The gist of the article was that even blue collar work in the future is going to require a college education. Maybe the trade schools will evolve to provide a college education so their graduates will be able to compete for manufacturing jobs.

This. The training today for becoming an auto mechanic, for example, is vastly different than in the past. Pulling apart an engine in your garage is not the same as knowing the electronics involved in todays cars. My husband’s friend owns a shop and he explains to us how it has evolved over the years so that his techs need real schooling to make it today.

 

[tvguy]

Unless you own a business, you’re pretty much screwed without employee protections. You don’t have to go back that far in history to see labor conditions before unions.

Decades ago, Unions played a major positive role in workers lives. Fast forward to 2019, it depends on the Union, and the state. My wife has been in the same Union in the same job for 41 years. She has been on the negotiating team several times. Her Union has transitioned from negotiating benefits for workers, to negotiating which concessions they will make to overrule some (California) state labor laws.
I am in a non-union. Under state law, you must get get a meal break from 3 to 5 hours after the start of your shift. You can't work 8 straight. You can't waive a meal break. If you do not get your break on time, they have to pay you one hour's straight pay as a penalty, and in addition, if you get no break at all, you also get time and a half for that missed meal. 30 minutes time and a half if 30 minutes is your normal lunch break time, 60 minutes if your normal break time is 60 minutes. I can never ever lose vacation time. They must give me the time off, or pay me for the vacation time.
My wife's Union, with out consulting the membership agreed at her place to exempt the company from any requirement to give meal break, and exempt them from any penalties. They also agreed to allow a cap on vacation, once you reach that cap, you can't accumulate any more vacation time until you get below the cap.
So like I said, it depends on the union, and the labor laws in your state.

 

[RamblingMad]

Decades ago, Unions played a major positive role in workers lives. Fast forward to 2019, it depends on the Union, and the state. My wife has been in the same Union in the same job for 41 years. She has been on the negotiating team several times. Her Union has transitioned from negotiating benefits for workers, to negotiating which concessions they will make to overrule some (California) state labor laws.
I am in a non-union. Under state law, you must get get a meal break from 3 to 5 hours after the start of your shift. You can't work 8 straight. You can't waive a meal break. If you do not get your break on time, they have to pay you one hour's straight pay as a penalty, and in addition, if you get no break at all, you also get time and a half for that missed meal. 30 minutes time and a half if 30 minutes is your normal lunch break time, 60 minutes if your normal break time is 60 minutes. I can never ever lose vacation time. They must give me the time off, or pay me for the vacation time.
My wife's Union, with out consulting the membership agreed at her place to exempt the company from any requirement to give meal break, and exempt them from any penalties. They also agreed to allow a cap on vacation, once you reach that cap, you can't accumulate any more vacation time until you get below the cap.
So like I said, it depends on the union, and the labor laws in your state.

CA labor laws are some of the best in the country. If unions and labor laws didn't exist, I could pay as low as I want by colluding with local businesses, I could pay no vacation or sick time, and I could hire and fire with discrimination. Without OSHA I could ignore safety.

What union busting essentially did was cap inflation. What this did was stagnate salaries. If you don't raise folks salaries by more than 2%, the only way that inflation will go above 2% is if you allow banks and shadow banks to lend like crazy, so that employees can live beyond their means via credit cards and personal loans.

One of the stocks I own has for the last ten years raised its dividend by 20% annually. I don't know any employees seeing 20% annualized increases. This creates a monopoly effect, where all of the economic gains go to the top. Unless you're in the top 5%, you're really not realizing the economic gains happening.

 

[jjb1974]

People who use the word 'socialism' when describing something they disagree with rarely use the word correctly. There are many socialist aspects of the US.

People hate socialism, right up until they need the police. Or fire department. Or a highway. Or air traffic control. Or ....

 

[azdisneylover]

Alright then. So if all these “non-skilled” jobs are for high school students looking to make some extra cash, then why aren’t these businesses closed during school hours? I’m not seeing grocery stores, restaurants, and shopping centers closed from 7AM-3PM Monday through Friday. So they need “regular” people to work? Great, pay them a living wage.

Well, because these people that work the 7am-3pm have paid their dues working for the grocery store, restaurant, etc for years, learning to move up. Businesses like to keep hard working employees. They do that by giving wage increases as well as promotions, etc.

 

[azdisneylover]

As is always the case, unskilled labor will be paid more when there is no one left to do the work at the 1st price.

Foreign labor is not used to a US standard of living, so when they come here, they are almost always willing to work at a price lower than an American would believe would support an American standard of living.

Teens and retirees don't need to support a US standard of living b/c they are supported (by SS or parents), but as mentioned, they are hours or task limited.

So, to raise the wages of unskilled, you tighten the market of who would work it at a substandard wage, and then miraculously, the wage will rise b/c the work still needs to get done...

This is so true! In the construction trades, illegals have been replacing most of the workers. Guys running the work get paid a little more because they can speak Spanish to the laborers. It's a farce that there isn't anyone willing to work what illegals will. Union trades after trades and been replaced with non English speaking/reading illegals because they will take a lot less per hour. They will then work a few years, getting raises until they hit a certain wage, by then, a whole new batch of illegals are brought in willing to work for next to nothing, and the older illegals are kicked out. This repeats. So, Now, there are so many problems on construction sites with costly mistakes because of laborers not understanding what they need to do on the job. They just smile and nod.
The problem with wages is multi layered, not one thing (mean businesses won't pay).

 

[azdisneylover]

What most people overlook is that there are many roads to Dublin - college is often not the smartest choice. As an earlier poster mentioned, trade school. Many local, state and federal agencies have generous grants avail to lower income residents for trade schools. Trade schools primarily serve working adults and are much more flexible and empathetic - they know they need to work around people's schedules and often provide more emotional and other support than traditional colleges to help students succeed.

This country is facing HUGE shortages of skilled trademen as boomers retire - we desperately need car mechanics, welders, plumbers, electricians, etc.

These jobs pay well and people usually can get apprenticeships after just 1-2 years of school. With a few years' experience, many can easily outearn quite a few college grads or even go into biz for themselves- and these jobs aren't outsourced either!

Why don't the K-12 systems promote that? Shop classes are gone. Most parents consider trade and vocational schools "beneath" their child - even though their child may not be suited for college.

It's a shame and a huge waste of potential talent and skills. Most people think "college" or "minimum wage future" with nothing in between. More has to be done to reach out to people stuck in minimum wage service jobs.

BUT people have to be willing to do something for "work" they love a little less - and use their leisure time to do what they truly love. The girl in the article voluntarily left a good paying rad tech healthcare job to work for Disney - she didn't just leave a particular job or bad situation- she ditched her entire training and career to work Disney front lines because it was what she loved.

"Do what you love" is wonderful and admirable if you can make it work - but I think it's bad advice for most people - especially people who have family obligations.

If what you love to do doesn't align with what organizations need or value...if it doesn't pay the bills or feed your kids, that's a choice one has to make. Millions of us have chosen to do something we hopefully like a little or can tolerate, but hardly consider our "dream" job. But in return, we have the funds to live, do what we want outside of work, build a secure future, and enjoy a secure retirement.

I realize this doesn't apply to everyone - there are always some extenuating circumstances, but frankly, I think for a lot of people, they either didn't get the right guidance and support to find a better path earlier on - or are determined to only do "what they love" - which in the real world, doesn't always work.

Stepping off soapbox now...

Very well said!!

 

[azdisneylover]

I have watched undercover boss. Now I know it may be somewhat contrived, but the overall concept remains. Few CEOs actually see how hard their entry level employees work. They probably don't want to know. They require lower level management to conform to certain payroll allowances and it's up to them to spread the money around and stay within that budget. The only way this will ever change is if they release more of their profits to help compensate their people better. I have no business experience but it makes sense to me that if they compensate their employees better they will stay around and it will save money in the long run.

I feel the big CEOs should have their pay/perks cut back to pay for the rest of the employees hard work. A couple of millions spread around a company would help in more ways than more know, especially if the CEO tells the employees he will take a cut to help give them more.

 

[azdisneylover]

This may have been true fifty years ago but it's not any more. Most factories pay a lot more than minimum wage yet still can't get good workers. My brother is a manager in a large manufacturing company that starts employees at $20 an hour yet they still are understaffed. Half of the people they hire don't pass the drug test and the other half don't want to work nights or weekends. And some are happy to earn almost as much with government entitlements.

Sad to say, many people do not want to work hard for a fair wage. They have been raised to feel entitled and the world owes them everything they desire. We now live in a society where everything is instant, including gratification. I see kids complaining not receiving the new car they wanted for their 16th birthday. What happened to WORKING for that car and being grateful you got the beater station wagon to drive?

 

[azdisneylover]

I don't think actors, musicians, athletes, or internet influencers are worth millions either but it's not up to me. If they make money for their corporations then they are obviously being paid what they are worth. I think taking care of children is an extremely important job but how many of you pay your daycare workers or babysitters $30 an hour?
There are so many in this country who think companies are in business to be a charity. If a corporation isn't making money then it can't hire more workers or open more locations. We need to be encouraging our children to seek jobs where they can make a living wage not depend on the government to run their lives. When I think back to how our previous generations came to this country to work and make a life for their families, it seems like a foreign concept to people now. They want to make $40,000 a year to work at Starbucks and have their college paid and buy whatever they want want whether they can afford it or not. It's so to see self-reliance and independence go by the wayside. And no I wasn't raised in a well-to-do family. I paid my own college (first in my family to go) went to school at night while I worked full time, without help from my parents or the government. It wasn't easy but whatever worthwhile ever is?

Very well said!

 

[azdisneylover]

My whole family came to this Country and worked these "crap" jobs that you say are not meant to support a family. But guess what? They did. We all had comfortable, middle class lives off of the one income that our dads brought in working in these no education, no skill jobs. Up until about 10-15 years ago, people where able to live off of these jobs. This is how many single moms where able to support themselves and their kids. 25 years ago, I was making $12/hour working in a grocery store bakery, my rent for a 1 bedroom apartment was $280/month, a nice new car was $10,000 and gas was $.89 gallon. Now the same job is only paying $9-$10, the same apartment is still there but cost $605/month, and good luck getting a decent car for under $20,000 and we all know how much gas costs. If you can't see how wages have not kept up to inflation, you must be blind. The only ones that are making the money are the ones that are higher up, again, they are greedy. There are plenty of young people doing what you did now with going to school and working but it is much harder now. The wages do not even cover their bare living expenses let alone paying for school. Do the math and see how well you would do now. It is NOT the same as it was 20 years ago, it's just not.

You are right, things are not the same as it was 20 years ago. Now we have over 12 million illegal immigrants in the country. That does have a major impact on many facets that affect wages. Yes, CEOs are greedy, in general, that is one part of the facets that need to change. There are more young people who feel entitled and expect to be handed everything on a silver platter when they want it, that needs to be changed. It goes on and on.

 

[siren0119]

Well, because these people that work the 7am-3pm have paid their dues working for the grocery store, restaurant, etc for years, learning to move up. Businesses like to keep hard working employees. They do that by giving wage increases as well as promotions, etc.

I think you missed what the PP was getting at. When those who have chosen to move into other jobs/positions are working regular hours, who is going to work the cash registers, bag groceries and stock shelves at the store while the kids are in school? I can tell you unequivocally it is not retirees. Do those adults who work during school hours not deserve a wage that allows them to survive?

 

[Dakota731]

If you think so then you should read about how Amazon treats its warehouse employees, or how risks of injury are much higher at factories like Tesla, who are a non-union shop.

Then get another job - no one is a slave to work at a certain company! Unemployment is the lowest in decades and there are many companies who are looking for employees constantly. Or if you feel so strongly about it then never shop at Amazon. But to say government should say how much corporations should pay employees is just asking for trouble. It hasn't worked in cities where they've tried it - people lose hours and get laid off. But I guess we should never let facts get in the way of emotion. Sometimes we want to pass legislation thinking it will help people without finding out if it will work in the real world. There are programs for low income people to get training for higher paying jobs, but it's easier to just complain and want the government to be our Mommy instead of taking personal responsibility and finding a solution that works.