Genie Plus, a must for busy days.

[Grasshopper2016]

Disney charging for low wait access and FP+ versus Genie+ are two different things. They both happened at the same time, but they didn’t really have to.

Disagree. There was no way that Disney was going to keep FP+ and just start charging money for it. The negative PR of charging money for something that used to be free would have been too much to bear. It's one thing to do that with parking. It's a much bigger deal to do it with fastpasses. They needed to get rid of FP+ altogether and replace it with something that they could claim is totally different, and provides a much better guest experience. (That last part is utterly laughable garbage of course, but that's exactly how they marketed it.) And the pandemic made it easier for them. They didn't have to take FP+ away one day, and replace it with a costly and inferior system the next day. Rather, they were hoping that, after a whole summer of miserable lines and no way to skip them, we would be grateful to pay for anything at all that let us skip some lines. And we wouldn't notice how much worse G+ is compared to FP+.

 

[twodogs]

For those dreaming of Disney doing an unlimited FP for all rides all day with unlimited repeats, they already have this in the VIP tour. I have been on several and I can tell you that people are not paying $4500/7 hours (this does NOT include the needed park hopper tickets) for “extra information about the parks and Disney history” etc. They are paying for a human fast pass. IF you max out the guests on your tour (10 people), it would be about $450 pp per day (not including tip) during the moderate season (VIP tours are priced dynamically). And most tours are not a full 10 people, so it actually costs more than that. Since they already sell these out routinely (just tried to book one a few weeks ago for mid December and was told sold out and waiting list also full), there is no way they will sell a front of the line (or even FP-type) pass with unlimited access for any less than this. Why would they need to do that?

I agree that they don’t care about the guest experience. They care about profit. And they thought they had a great way to increase that by ditching FP+ and starting G+. And I am sure they have increased profits. Now they will likely push it further up in price to make even more profit, but I doubt they will limit the number sold each day. They have shown this week that they will sell you G+ in the middle of a day when there are no LL to book. So I don’t see them stopping until people won’t pay for it or visit anymore. And so far, those limits don’t seem to have been reached.

 

[Kickstart]

Serious question. What was wrong with paper FP? (I also loved FP+ and we were definitely super users.) Why do they keep fixing things that are working?

I believe the issue with paper FP is it worked fine based on park attendance in the early 2000's, but would likely be worse than G+ if used with current attendance levels. Can you imaging how many families would be sending "runners" to SDD and ROTR at park open? It would be a chaotic race with tempers flaring. Back in the mid 2000's, if you got to the park reasonably early, you could count on getting 3 decent fast-passes for the day (and maybe a fourth/fifth if you stayed late) without having to sprint around the park. Add to all that, it's really not an efficient system as it encourages people to go back and forth between attractions.

FP+ worked great for on-site planners, but even for on-site planners it was getting hard to get some headliners unless you stayed more than 5 nights.

I feel the core issue is park attendance is overwhelming the capacity of things to do in the parks. There's not really a great solution.

Having read about how G+ is working so far, I feel they would have been much better off limiting on-site guests to just one FP+ pre-booked per day and then (like the old paper FP), you can try to get more during the day after you clock into your FP+ (or hit the two hour mark). And limiting off-site guest to no pre-booked FP+, just day of PF+. Sure, people would be upset who were used to getting 3 pre-booked per day... but I'm thinking they'd be a lot less upset than they are now.

 

[Kickstart]

As for people thinking their pre-booked FP+ was a "right"... I disagree, but I don't disagree it was viewed as an expectation. And, I'll add that it was a reasonable expectation.

On-site guests were already paying for a skip-the-line system, by paying significantly higher hotel rates than off-site (way more than can be justified by proximity and theming). Disney could justify the nightly hotel rates primarily because of the 60+ day pre-booking window. And I think this is causing the most frustration with "on-site planners" is now they're being charged twice for a skip-the-line system that is worse.

They're trying to keep the on-site value proposition with the early morning hours... but I'm not sure if that will be enough. It will be interesting to see with G+ if we start to see pricing pressure on the value and moderate resorts, and maybe even the deluxe (but they have the evening extra hours, so maybe that's enough)

I think they should have tweaked FP+, by reducing the pre-booked FP to just one per day and just for on-site guests. And then maybe offer a paid add-on pre-book option (charge for the old 3 pre-booked FP's at 60 days) that is expensive enough to be limiting. Yes, it would have stung, but this way you'd still be getting at least one FP "included" and would likely have made it easier for non-planners to snag a good FP.

I think they also need to get more shows and fun diversions. Expand the parks, and not necessarily with headlines, just more cool/interesting stuff to do. I wonder if G+ is possibly working against them, encouraging people to focus on rides (getting their next LL) instead of taking in the park.

 

[StarCruzer]

Let's zoom out and look at the real problem: G+ is charging customers to "solve" a problem that Disney created for themselves. Disney knows guests dislike waiting in lines but instead of fixing the line problem, they are charging a their guests extra to have a pleasant park experience (theoretically, anyway).

Disney has the technology to revolutionize the theme park experience by doing away with traditional lines altogether. The ideal Genie system would be for every line to be a virtual line. Tap your magic band to enter the virtual queue, come back when your wait is over. Regular Genie service would be one line at a time, with the wait time based on how many people are virtually in front of you. From there, a G+ service would work similarly to Universal: higher price point, but you can cut the line of say, five different attractions per day, no pre-planning needed, one park per day. There would be a limited number of G+ passes sold per day, and Club Level guests would have this included as a perk.

Take all of the metal barriers out of the queue areas and install tables and chairs (because really, there isn't single QS restaurant that provides enough seating in the shade, which is just inexcusable), or additional "character experience" areas--mini shows where the characters sing and tell stories every few hours. Some of the queue installations (Expedition Everest, Peter Pan, etc.) are incredible but no one has time to properly enjoy them because you have to shuffle forward 2 feet every 10 seconds. Or be lazy as heck and just have a TV playing Disney films and some benches for kids to have cool down time. Do you know how many times I've seen kids have absolute meltdowns when all they really need is a shady place to sit with a cold cup of juice?

Disney used to be a leader in theme park experiences, and getting rid of physical lines would truly put them leagues ahead of their competitors while still giving the opportunity for additional revenue. But instead of strategically trying to improve guest experience AND increase revenue, they try to rush out a half-finished app update that charges you a nominal fee for a world of frustration that drags down the experience further.

 

[Orsino]

Disagree. There was no way that Disney was going to keep FP+ and just start charging money for it. The negative PR of charging money for something that used to be free would have been too much to bear

You and I are simply having a semantic difference of interpretation of the words “have to”. You are interpreting this to mean “pressured to” where as I m it to mean “impossible not to.”
You yourself state that Disney could have charged for FP+ only that the backlash would be severe. (PR pressure). Therefore it is not impossible for Disney to have done so.

I will also point out that the backlash to genie plus absolutely included the words ‘charging for something that used to be free.’ On these very boards even. I don’t think anyone looked at genie and thought, wow that’s so totally different, Disney is absolutely justified in charging for that now.

any way all this misses the overall point that there are two differences between FP+ and genie and conflating the two messes stuff up. Comparing the mechanics of the two should avoid the cost component (since Disney could have done fp+ with a charge too). Apples to apples like.

 

[Figment of Speech]

G+ is charging customers to "solve" a problem that Disney created for themselves. Disney knows guests dislike waiting in lines but instead of fixing the line problem, they are charging a their guests extra to have a pleasant park experience (theoretically, anyway).

This is so well said.

Disney has the technology to revolutionize the theme park experience by doing away with traditional lines altogether. The ideal Genie system would be for every line to be a virtual line. Tap your magic band to enter the virtual queue, come back when your wait is over.

100% agree. Isn't this how Volcano Bay already works? I'd be interested to know what it is about that park that makes it possible there, but either not possible or not preferable elsewhere, including other Universal parks, since they already have the tech.

Alternatively, I wonder if a hybrid system like Disneyland Paris's free Standby Pass could be feasible. The park's paid Premiere Access Pass tends to get all the attention because it was a harbinger of G+, but I think this Standby Pass alternative could be a really good compromise. Here's a description of how that works, thanks to Disney Tourist Blog:

[Free Standby Pass] is essentially a hybrid system that combines a virtual queue with a physical standby line. It allows guests to spend the first part of their wait time for select attractions outside of the queue, and then joining the line for the home stretch.

Standby Pass is available at Disneyland Paris certain times of the day, subject to availability and dependent upon operational needs of the parks. Essentially, it’s offered when Disneyland Paris is running out of physical queue space–so during peak times of busier days. When available, guests can use the Disneyland Paris app to book the next available time slot to enter the physical queue line of an attraction, return within the allocated 30-minute time slot, present the Standby Pass QR code, and stand in the queue for the remainder of that time.

It doesn't say how long that "remaining" time is, and they implement it according to the park's needs, not the guests', but if fully virtual queues for every ride aren't possible, then perhaps a hybrid system would be an effective leveler. Rather than dividing guests into people who pay vs people who don't, or experts vs newbies, it could lessen (though not eliminate) wait times for everyone.

Imagine, for instance, never being able to fully skip a line, but at the same time never having to wait in line for more than 20 minutes for anything (or maybe 10, or maybe 30... a well-running system might even be able to adjust it depending on the day's crowds). It's not as snazzy as skipping lines entirely, but it's a compromise I'd certainly take.

 

[Grasshopper2016]

I feel the core issue is park attendance is overwhelming the capacity of things to do in the parks. There's not really a great solution.

I think they also need to get more shows and fun diversions. Expand the parks, and not necessarily with headlines, just more cool/interesting stuff to do.

This nails the core of the problem. Ride capacity is not keeping up with attendance. You can come up with various systems to let some people skip some lines some of the time, but the bottom line is that, if you have too many people and too few things to do, most people are going to be standing in long lines most of the time. No amount of rearranging the deck chairs is going to change that.

Disney's decisions even before Covid to cut back on entertainment and to run rides at reduced capacity just made things worse. And when Covid and staffing shortages led to much steeper cuts in shows, characters, entertainment, parades, and the like, the problem was made exponentially worse.

In the end, there are only two possible solutions. One is to reduce attendance. The other is to increase capacity by greatly expanding the number of rides and other forms of entertainment. Both would cost Disney a lot of money and reduce profits, at least in the short run. And therefore, neither is likely to happen--at least not under the current company leadership.

Another option is to come up with a way for the wealthier guests to buy a better experience (at the expense of the rest of the guests). I think we might see that coming. VIP tours already do that, but they are a relatively small piece of the puzzle. Some form of much higher priced line skipping---like a $600 express unlimited pass, or a la carte on-the-spot, instant Fastpasses (sorry, Lighting Lane experiences) priced between $10 for the lamest rides (tea cups, Muppetvision, etc.) and $50 for the top rides (RotR, FOP, etc.)---might provide a way to raise significant profits at very little cost to Disney. Which makes me think they will do it, even if they take a PR hit as a result. This doesn't solve the problem. It actually just makes it worse for everyone but the wealthiest guests. But money talks. In fact, these days, I'm not sure Disney speaks any other language.

 

[Jrb1979]

This nails the core of the problem. Ride capacity is not keeping up with attendance. You can come up with various systems to let some people skip some lines some of the time, but the bottom line is that, if you have too many people and too few things to do, most people are going to be standing in long lines most of the time. No amount of rearranging the deck chairs is going to change that.

Disney's decisions even before Covid to cut back on entertainment and to run rides at reduced capacity just made things worse. And when Covid and staffing shortages led to much steeper cuts in shows, characters, entertainment, parades, and the like, the problem was made exponentially worse.

In the end, there are only two possible solutions. One is to reduce attendance. The other is to increase capacity by greatly expanding the number of rides and other forms of entertainment. Both would cost Disney a lot of money and reduce profits, at least in the short run. And therefore, neither is likely to happen--at least not under the current company leadership.

Another option is to come up with a way for the wealthier guests to buy a better experience (at the expense of the rest of the guests). I think we might see that coming. VIP tours already do that, but they are a relatively small piece of the puzzle. Some form of much higher priced line skipping---like a $600 express unlimited pass, or a la carte on-the-spot, instant Fastpasses (sorry, Lighting Lane experiences) priced between $10 for the lamest rides (tea cups, Muppetvision, etc.) and $50 for the top rides (RotR, FOP, etc.)---might provide a way to raise significant profits at very little cost to Disney. Which makes me think they will do it, even if they take a PR hit as a result. This doesn't solve the problem. It actually just makes it worse for everyone but the wealthiest guests. But money talks. In fact, these days, I'm not sure Disney speaks any other language.

The last part of your post is exactly how every other park does it. I know that everyone wants it to be fair but there isn't enough attractions for it to work that way.

Look we all would like more attractions. The problem is most won't accept a bunch of random rides like Paradise Pier at DCA started with. Put in some B&M coasters at each park. Those are high capacity and are cost much less then the coasters they do put in.

 

[PaladinButters]

They didn't have to take FP+ away one day, and replace it with a costly and inferior system the next day. Rather, they were hoping that, after a whole summer of miserable lines and no way to skip them, we would be grateful to pay for anything at all that let us skip some lines. And we wouldn't notice how much worse G+ is compared to FP+.

It would have worked in the days before instant access social media. Nobody would know it was worse until they bought it and tried it themselves. Word of mouth travels much slower than Twitter.

My new conspiracy theory is they had to give us the absolute worst of all worlds so they can "hear us and make improvements" and roll out Fast Pass 3.0 (extreme thunder edition) where you can go back to scheduling your passes but at a cost of $50 a day.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

If anyone still needed convincing of that, surely Genie+ is the evidence. They are selling it to people when it it literally useless, with no capacity left in the system to book anything at all.

 

[Jrb1979]

It would have worked in the days before instant access social media. Nobody would know it was worse until they bought it and tried it themselves. Word of mouth travels much slower than Twitter.

My new conspiracy theory is they had to give us the absolute worst of all worlds so they can "hear us and make improvements" and roll out Fast Pass 3.0 (extreme thunder edition) where you can go back to scheduling your passes but at a cost of $50 a day.

I doubt they go back to advanced booking. Genie+ isn't good but FP+ wasn't much better. They still have to same issue that has existed forever. They don't have enough attractions for any system to work if everyone has access to it. Disney has stuck into people's heads that skip the line is a right for everyone to have but in reality that's not how they work.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

So the system will allow someone to pay when there’s no availability at all? Can you check availability prior to buying?

Correct. At Animal Kingdom during Thanksgiving week on at least one day every single ride and show was fully booked at 2:00 pm, but they were still selling people Genie+. This was confirmed by several people who were on the ground at the time. They were knowingly selling a completely useless product. It was roadside carnival level scamming by a company that used to do better.

 

[mom2rtk]

Depending on your perspective you could look at Genie+ as paying $15 for at least one major attraction (like a 3rd IALL) with at worst a couple of lesser attractions thrown in, especially at MK.

When it’s really crowded LL reservations for attractions like Buzz, IASW, Pooh, POC, and others can still have value, especially for people with small children.

At DHS, getting SDD or MFSR plus Star Tours or TSMM might be worth $15 to you too. You might not get as many LL as you would when it’s less crowded, but you might save even more time waiting in lines.

That's some serious lowering of expectations.

 

[emonade8]

Here's a question for all of you. Would you rather pay $15 but only get on 1-2 rides on busy days or pay $50 and have the ability to get on the majority of rides each day.

Here's a better question: Why are those my choices when before I paid nothing and got on all the rides?

 

[Jrb1979]

Here's a better question: Why are those my choices when before I paid nothing and got on all the rides?

Those are your choices cause we know a free system is not coming back.

 

[wisblue]

That's some serious lowering of expectations.

Expectations must be a function of reality.

Visiting WDW during peak holiday times has always required different expectations and approaches than visiting at non peak times.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

What I feel gets lost in the discussion is the ticket price. I keep hearing $15 here and there so it's not a big deal. It is a big deal.

For my group of 5, on top of the thousands paid for tickets to walk into the parks, using G+ and ILL$ added $100-$150 per day. That is a significant cost increase.

 

[Jrb1979]

What I feel gets lost in the discussion is the ticket price. I keep hearing $15 here and there so it's not a big deal. It is a big deal.

For my group of 5, on top of the thousands paid for tickets to walk into the parks, using G+ and ILL$ added $100-$150 per day. That is a significant cost increase.

While true, what also gets lost in discussion is that you don't have to buy it. Like I've said a few times just cause Disney once made it originally so that everyone had FP doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

This past week shows what happens when too many buy Genie+. It limits people to 1-2 rides a day.

 

[kevind2112]

Expectations must be a function of reality.

Visiting WDW during peak holiday times has always required different expectations and approaches than visiting at non peak times.

We've travelled during peak holiday times in the past, including 2015 & 2016. We were still able to reserve 3 guaranteed fast passes for each day for each of those trips. We are going again this Christmas, spending roughly double what we paid in 2016, not including fast passes, and now we're not sure we can get more than 1-2 attractions while paying an extra $15/day?

I understand holidays are busier, we've visited during the holidays our last 5 trips. Yes, expectations and approaches need to be adjusted during those times, but this borders on insanity. I'm actually dreading all of the planning I need to do on this trip.