George Zimmerman is in police custody

[Gumbo4x4]

You are correct. And Mr. Martin may have been attempting to defend himself against someone who threatened him with a gun. Despite what you said, it is reasonable to believe that one's life is threatened when someone approaches you with a gun. Since we don't really know the manner in which Zimmerman approached Martin and how the fight started, it's not possible to know which one was actually defending themselves. I'm curious why you seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman.

You have to give the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman if only for the fact that in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. And so far, there is no evidence to point to Zimmerman's gun coming out until after the altercation began.

 

[Too Far From Home]

Really? You think Zimmerman would have ever approached the kid without that gun? I don't. Not even for money.

I agree 100%, but it really isn't material to the case.

According to TV lawyer speculation, this could come down to the prosecutor's ability to prove that Martin was in a state of fear because of Zimmerman's behavior. If she can do so, Martin will have been justified (under Florida law) to defend himself - including hitting Zimmerman without Zimmerman hitting him first.

This would put the entire event at Zimmerman's feet and remove his right to claim self-defense. It takes away the "stand your ground" defense, and would make him guilty of 2nd Murder in Florida.

How do you prove Martin's state of mind? It might come down to the testimony of his gilfriend, who was on the phone with Martin up to the point of the physical confrontation.

 

[Geoff_M]

If he felt "safer" approaching the kid because he had a gun, it's premeditation because he knew he'd pull the trigger if he got into trouble.

By that logic, anyone that legally carries a concealed firearm for personal protection would therefore also be automatically guilty of premeditation because they knew they too can "pull the trigger" if they get into trouble. What you describe also does not meet the legal definition of "premediation"... unless Zimmerman had decided to shoot Martin before the two physically encountered one another.

 

[sbell111]

Zimmerman had a legal gun and the proper permit to carry that gun. Zimmerman also had a concealed holster as confirmed by the police.

What the police don't know is if Z was chasing Trayvon around the neighborhood brandishing his gun and threatening Trayvon with it. There aren't any witnesses that can confirm that Z left his gun holstered the entire time and only took it out to use in self-defense.

The girlfirend's story contradicts the theory that Zimmerman was chasin Martin with his weapon drawn. Per her story, Martin spoke to Zimmerman first and asked 'Why are you following me?' If Zimmerman had him at gunpoint at that moment, certainly he would have said something else, such as 'Don't shoot!'.

Z says Trayvon was going after his gun. Again, there isn't any witness that can confirm this story. Where was the gun when Trayvon was going after it? All we have is Z word that it was holstered. Is it possible he had it out and was threatening Trayvon with it, hence the reason he went after it? If it was holstered, and Zimmerman had his jacket on and partially zipped, how would Trayvon even know Zimmerman had a gun to begin with?

Because when you are involved in a fight, jackets raise above the waist. Also, he may have felt the holstered weapon during the struggle.

Unfortunately, because there aren't any witnesses until seconds before the shooting, I honestly don't think we will ever know the facts of this case.

True, but that doesn't mean that the facts that we do have don't serve to rule out some theories.

 

[sbell111]

According to a few articles on the web, Florida went from an average of 12 lawful deaths/year to 36 lawful deaths/year after the "Stand your ground" law was passed. We have no idea how many of those deaths could have been avoided had this law not been passed. The law has the effect of allowing a self-defense argument when someone dies in a conflict and there are no witnesses.

It's not about gun rights, as most of these deaths were not by gunfire. It is about an irresponsible law that automatically protects killers when there are no witnesses - raising the bar for prosecution to absurd levels.

Even if Zimmerman is found guilty, this law need to be repealed.

On the other hand, maybe it's a great law that stops 24 people per year from wrongfully being prosecuted.

 

[sbell111]

Not necessarily. The question remains, Would Zimmerman have escalated his following of the teen if he didn't have a gun to rely on and use? or would he have listened to the dispatcher?

There's no proof that he didn't listen to the recommendation of the dispatcher. In fact, the location of the shooting suggests that he had not continued to follow.

If he felt "safer" approaching the kid because he had a gun, it's premeditation because he knew he'd pull the trigger if he got into trouble.

That is simply untrue. The mere fact that I am armed doesn't mean that I am a murderer if I must use my weapon.

 

[kidshop]

You have to give the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman if only for the fact that in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. And so far, there is no evidence to point to Zimmerman's gun coming out until after the altercation began.

I prefer to give benefit of doubt to the dead unarmed 17 year old, who wasn't doing anything wrong but walking home. But that is just me.

What time of day did this happen? I really don't know.

 

[ols386]

I don't think shooting Trayvon was pre-meditated by Zimmerman. I don't believe that Zimmerman had any intention of killing anyone, but the bottom line is he did. If he had not gotten out of his truck, then the whole thing would not have gone down the way it did. He is at least partially responsible for Trayvon being dead. He does have to answer to that.

 

[joviroxx]

Does anyone know if Zimmerman has ever been accused of brandishing his gun? Has he ever been accused of not using correctly or carrying it correctly? It would be interesting to know that if he has a concealed weapons permit, has he ever waved it around prior to this alleged incident. Are there any witness that he was one too parade his gun around?

 

[sbell111]

If he approached the kid with even the thought that he would use the gun if he got into trouble, it can be considered premeditated. Even thinking about it for a split second before pulling it out.

That is still incorrect.

Every person with a CWP knows that he/she may at some point be in a situation where he/she will use his/her weapon if he/she 'gets into trouble'**. That is, after all, the very point in having a CWP. This preparedness doesn't change self-defense to murder 1.

** I am defining 'gets into trouble' as reasonably fearing for his/her life or that of another for the purposes of this post.

 

[sbell111]

Does anyone know if Zimmerman has ever been accused of brandishing his gun? Has he ever been accused of not using correctly or carrying it correctly? It would be interesting to know that if he has a concealed weapons permit, has he ever waved it around prior to this alleged incident. Are there any witness that he was one too parade his gun around?

No allegations of this have ever been made and if they were, his CWP would have been revoked.

 

[shortbun]

You have to give the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman if only for the fact that in this country you are innocent until proven guilty...

If only he had extended that right to Tayvon Martin. He had called 911 and they were sending someone. And yes, he will be afforded the rights he is due as a citizen of this country. Strange, since he appointed himself as judge, jury and executioner.

 

[sbell111]

You are correct. And Mr. Martin may have been attempting to defend himself against someone who threatened him with a gun. Despite what you said, it is reasonable to believe that one's life is threatened when someone approaches you with a gun. Since we don't really know the manner in which Zimmerman approached Martin and how the fight started, it's not possible to know which one was actually defending themselves. I'm curious why you seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt to Zimmerman.

I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the actual facts of the case.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I think its important to remember that the Special Prosecutor and team have looked at and analyzed evidence that we the public have not. Perhaps, it is that evidence which is determining the charges. If any of it contradicts Zimmerman's story of what happened that night, does his whole self defense fall apart in their eyes?

 

[Too Far From Home]

On the other hand, maybe it's a great law that stop2 24 people a year from wrongfully being prosecuted.

Maybe - but if that is the case, why does the law enforcement community now want it repealed? They supported it fully when it was passed.

 

[joviroxx]

If only he had extended that right to Tayvon Martin. He had called 911 and they were sending someone. And yes, he will be afforded the rights he is due as a citizen of this country. Strange, since he appointed himself as judge, jury and executioner.

With what kind of proof can you say that? This is where I get confused. I remember calling in a suspicious guy in my neighborhood and DH following him around until the cops got there. We didn't want to lose track of him. Does that make DH think himself "above the law"? Oh, an DH has a CWP. It seems many preconceived ideas that people who own guns are wild west, law breaking crazy people , ready to shoot at someone.

Whether he went after TM or TM confronted him is still the point of hand. And from what I read, there is no real evidence to support either side. I for one, will wait to make any form any kind of opinion.

 

[Too Far From Home]

I think its important to remember that the Special Prosecutor and team have looked at and analyzed evidence that we the public have not. Perhaps, it is that evidence which is determining the charges. If any of it contradicts Zimmerman's story of what happened that night, does his whole self defense fall apart in their eyes?

It is almost certainly the evidence that has prompted the charges.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I prefer to give benefit of doubt to the dead unarmed 17 year old, who wasn't doing anything wrong but walking home. But that is just me.

What time of day did this happen? I really don't know.

That's kinda pointless. If Zimmerman were the one dead or in the hospital, then we'd have to give Martin the benefit of the doubt.

BTW, was the kid really doing no wrong? This happened at night & Zimmerman followed the kid for ~15 minutes in the rain. Was he simply walking home, or scoping out unlocked cars for purses? 15 minutes is enough to walk a mile. Who walks a mile (in both directions) in the rain just for a tea & Skittles? Did he go straight to the store & back, or was he wandering through the neighborhood? Lots of questions that have to be answered IMO.

I'd like to know exactly how far home was from the convenience store & where the confrontation took place in relation to both the store & home.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

With what kind of proof can you say that?

Agreed. Here we have folks claiming Zimmerman appointed himself judge, jury, & executioner. By making that claim, wouldn't you be guilty of the same?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

It is almost certainly the evidence that has prompted the charges.

One can only hope.