Help - Was Scammed!

[TiggerBouncy]

We can certainly be critical of someone knowing the questions to ask and choosing not to ask them, but we can't be critical of someone not knowing all of the questions to begin with (or even having access to the right questions or knowing that a resource such as The DIS exists).

You said what I was trying to say, but much better.

 

[Chuck S]

I agree to a point, and I'm sorry people were scammed. But to say they had no idea of resources available is a stretch, I think....I mean, people google where to eat dinner, where to buy a car, all kinds of info. And after all, they found a Facebook page to rent from, right?

 

[RoseGold]

It's just not reasonable to expect the average person to be able to understand it all or know what they need to find out. Blaming them for not doing their research is the equivalent of asking me to build a house by myself and then blaming me when the plumbing doesn't pass inspection.

It the second point in the REQUIRED READING post for this site's rental board. It's all over all the other ones too. This isn't top secret information. This is more like not bothering to read the plumbing inspection.

I don't expect renters to know it all, and there are risks that can't be eliminated, like last minute cancellations. But the basics of confirming a reservation is in the rules of all of these sites, and has been for years. Even at my sketchy one, RIP.

 

[c0reyann]

It the second point in the REQUIRED READING post for this site's rental board. It's all over all the other ones too. This isn't top secret information. This is more like not bothering to read the plumbing inspection.

I don't expect renters to know it all, and there are risks that can't be eliminated, like last minute cancellations. But the basics of confirming a reservation is in the rules of all of these sites, and has been for years. Even at my sketchy one, RIP.

While I do take full responsibility for what happened to me, this is an outlier of a case IMHO. Yes, to me NOW I realize I made a huge mistake in not having the reservation in my name prior to handing over funds. Other than that though, I believe I did my due diligence. I reached out to past renters of his, who all had nothing but good things to say (then). Three had stayed with him already and two were looking to stay again. One was staying in the future without issues and one was an owner of a DVC rental board. His phone # and Facebook account are for who he really is.

Also there are those that did require reservation #s before paying and what he did was make a valid reservation for one day of their stay and cancel the reservation as soon as they paid. So even if I had demanded one it's possible he'd have done something similar to me.

I did make mistakes and learn from them but this wasn't akin to not knowing to make park reservations when buying tickets/planning a stay IMHO.
I've been able to rebook with a reputable DVC rental agency and likely will never go via owners directly ever again.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I agree to a point, and I'm sorry people were scammed. But to say they had no idea of resources available is a stretch, I think....I mean, people google where to eat dinner, where to buy a car, all kinds of info. And after all, they found a Facebook page to rent from, right?

Where to eat dinner is a much different and easier topic and can be accomplished with 1 or 2 sites.

Where to buy a car.... Have you seen the internet in the past 10 years? Despite the number of resources out there, even buyers who do their diligence get scammed. One of the reasons scamming is such a lucrative business is because they are quite good at making themselves LOOK legit.

At my company, employees forward to me a lot of emails that they are not sure if they are legit. Most of them are easy to tell.... SOME OF THEM ARE NOT. Some of them are so difficult even I am not sure if they are real or phishing.

Again, I do not think it's a lack of resources. I think it's a combination of not having the base to understand the flood of information and/or sort it (again, so much information is also wrong or outdated) and scammers being pretty good at faking people.

Remember - the ONLY REASON SCAMS EXIST IS BECAUSE PEOPLE FALL FOR THEM. Most of these people are not stupid. They are average, intelligent people.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I agree to a point, and I'm sorry people were scammed. But to say they had no idea of resources available is a stretch, I think....I mean, people google where to eat dinner, where to buy a car, all kinds of info. And after all, they found a Facebook page to rent from, right?

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. No one said people were ignorant to any resources (that's a weak straw man argument at best), but that people can be unaware of the layers of nuance and may not know how deep that they have to dig. At what point do you determine that the resources you have chosen are competent and complete? To equate private party renting of DVC points with Googling tonight's dinner is a false equivalence of the highest order.

 

[CarolMN]

Which supports my point that there is a ton of nuance involved in renting DVC, and for the real "vast majority" (those who aren't DIS members, and don't have access to or even know about the resources here) there is no "Required Reading" thread for them to readily access or even be aware of its existence, and we should be sympathetic to their situation and not bang on them for not knowing.

I'm very sorry to hear about anyone getting scammed, and it does no good to tell them what they "should have" done after the fact. It just makes them feel bad. I don't really have a feel for what happened to the OP & others in that situation. Could have been unavoidable, for all I know. I can only thank her/him for sharing the experience as a warning to others, and wish them all a happy ending.

That said, it is hard to have a lot of sympathy for those who do little to no research before sending a large amount of money to a stranger on the internet. My comment re our own DIS posters was just to illustrate that so many won't even read something before they put themselves out there. It's like walking around downtown with cash hanging out of your pocket for all to see.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

That said, it is hard to have a lot of sympathy for those who do little to no research before sending a large amount of money to a stranger on the internet. My comment re our own DIS posters was just to illustrate that so many won't even read something before they put themselves out there. It's like walking around downtown with cash hanging out of your pocket for all to see.

I agree GENERALLY, but it doesn't sound like the OP did not do any due diligence. After all, she did say "I reached out to past renters of his, who all had nothing but good things to say (then). Three had stayed with him already and two were looking to stay again. One was staying in the future without issues and one was an owner of a DVC rental board. His phone # and Facebook account are for who he really is."

Since I am a sci-fi guy, I am reminded of this quote...
Captain Jean-Luc Picard : It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Do not assume that the victim is at fault.

 

[CarolMN]

I agree GENERALLY, but it doesn't sound like the OP did not do any due diligence.

Assuming facts not in evidence, LOL. I said it was very possible that the OPs situation was unavoidable.

That second paragraph was a GENERAL comment about DIS posters (where there is lots and lots of good info re renting).

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I'm very sorry to hear about anyone getting scammed, and it does no good to tell them what they "should have" done after the fact. It just makes them feel bad. I don't really have a feel for what happened to the OP & others in that situation. Could have been unavoidable, for all I know. I can only thank her/him for sharing the experience as a warning to others, and wish them all a happy ending.

That said, it is hard to have a lot of sympathy for those who do little to no research before sending a large amount of money to a stranger on the internet. My comment re our own DIS posters was just to illustrate that so many won't even read something before they put themselves out there. It's like walking around downtown with cash hanging out of your pocket for all to see.

Another point to consider is that all the public shamming of a victim for explaining what happened prevents others from sharing similar stories that might help people to avoid the very thing the OP is getting shammed for.

Just sayin'

 

[Chuck S]

I'm curious as to whether or not Facebook will do anything to shut down the scammer? Surely people have reported this to facebook?

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I'm curious as to whether or not Facebook will do anything to shut down the scammer? Surely people have reported this to facebook?

If it was on a group, then the group admin should have kicked them out immediately I ASSUME the person was reported using the appropriate tools in FB. Given the length of time, I would hope that's already been taken care of.

FB itself should also do their own investigation and again also assuming it was reported. The account would be banned (but sometimes it takes a bit). Small comfort, but... <shrug>

I have not reported someone for something like this, but I HAVE reported someone for pretending to be someone else in FB (copied their profile picture and started spamming their friends with "I got hacked. This is my real account. Please accept me". Then a week later "I need help. Can you spare me a few dollars"). FB has usually shut those down after a review period as long as supporting evidence is included (like chats).

 

[Princesca]

I appreciate the OP sharing their experience. I have long felt too unsure of the risks of DVC rental to be comfortable doing it, and this just reaffirms that it is beyond my risk appetite. MAYBE I would through one of the verified reseller sites, if I had trip insurance, but otherwise I much prefer to go through Disney.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I appreciate the OP sharing their experience. I have long felt too unsure of the risks of DVC rental to be comfortable doing it, and this just reaffirms that it is beyond my risk appetite. MAYBE I would through one of the verified reseller sites, if I had trip insurance, but otherwise I much prefer to go through Disney.

I admit I have never rented points. I have not rented out my points either for the same reason. I just have.... I have a lot of trust issues, OK? (For the same reason, my contracts are all direct. I would rather pay a little extra because I know if I buy from Disney I am getting the real product).

 

[c0reyann]

If it was on a group, then the group admin should have kicked them out immediately I ASSUME the person was reported using the appropriate tools in FB. Given the length of time, I would hope that's already been taken care of.

Unfortunately this wasn't the case. The group he found me in was tipped off about his behavior in early Feb. and he got me in late Feb. They only removed him last week after I and a few others made a stink that it was shameful they were made aware of the issues but chose to allow him to remain in the group. He was removed from a few other groups quicker though but those were Auliani and VGC based groups.

I believe he remains in a couple FB groups but I could be wrong.

I have reported it to Facebook but they haven't done anything saying they don't find anything wrong with his account. Since he's doing it under his actual account there's not much that can be done (although he has created a fake one in a lame attempt to try to make it look like his identity was stolen).

In all the research I did after I did find two civil lawsuits he's currently facing where he's stolen a total of 1.65 million from friends. I've spoken to a few lawyers involved in the cases and apparently he's well known for his scamming in the area he lives so this is something he's known for.

Like I said before, there were mistakes made but it doesn't mean I deserve what happened or that I'm stupid. Hopefully this post helps another do a bit more legwork and saves themselves the mess.

We did manage to stop two people from paying him so there is that at least.

 

[bumbershoot]

Sadly, this is much the way of the world now. We tend to blame the victim as much as the victimizer these days.

Protecting yourself has always been a thing and always will be a thing. There will never come a time that a person can walk blithely along and never ever wonder if they will be interfered with, whether that's in person or with online transactions.

You're the one calling *protecting yourself* "victim blaming."

And there it is, writ large.

The person was using phrasing to show that s/he disagrees that it's "victim blaming."

Now if you do not know anything about any of this - TRY to look it up. It's like trying to learn nuclear physics from google. You have pretty much NO CHANCE.

You have no chance to have a good trip at WDW without help? I disagree entirely.

I now know a whole passel of friends who didn't ask for a bit of help for Disney trips, but had WONDERFUL trips. How? Simply by reading the WDW website and their emails. Disney lays it all out for you. They followed what WDW told them to do and they have had amazing trips that made them want to go back.

I agree to a point, and I'm sorry people were scammed. But to say they had no idea of resources available is a stretch, I think....I mean, people google where to eat dinner, where to buy a car, all kinds of info. And after all, they found a Facebook page to rent from, right?

They also found out that renting DVC stays is a thing.

Another point to consider is that all the public shamming of a victim for explaining what happened prevents others from sharing similar stories that might help people to avoid the very thing the OP is getting shammed for.

Just sayin'

No one is shaming the OP. The OP posted partially (I hope) to help others learn from their situation. That is far more important than just "this is what happened to me". If I recall correctly they also wondered if anyone knows of anything else that can be done.

Sharing things like that is done to help others avoid what happened. That way we can all protect ourselves more.

I have a lot of trust issues, OK?

So you yourself protect yourself, eh? And you do so because you don't want to take an action that might cause problems for yourself. Wouldn't that be proactively victim-shaming yourself? Nah, it's just protecting yourself by not taking on any risks.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I'm very sorry to hear about anyone getting scammed, and it does no good to tell them what they "should have" done after the fact. It just makes them feel bad. I don't really have a feel for what happened to the OP & others in that situation. Could have been unavoidable, for all I know. I can only thank her/him for sharing the experience as a warning to others, and wish them all a happy ending.

That said, it is hard to have a lot of sympathy for those who do little to no research before sending a large amount of money to a stranger on the internet. My comment re our own DIS posters was just to illustrate that so many won't even read something before they put themselves out there. It's like walking around downtown with cash hanging out of your pocket for all to see.

Given how op has described how this scam has gone down so far I’m having a bit of a tough time seeing how the scammer couldn’t have pulled this off using the dvc rental board. I mean he had actual dvc points and did a few real reservations first to build up references. Then it sounds like he used some refundable cash bookings to make it look like he made points rentals in his customers names. (Can you even tell the difference between a cash reservation and a points reservation made by another person in your name if you import the reservation into MDE?), so he was willing to tie up his own money in this scam. Then he gave out his earlier people as actual bona fide references. Assuming this is the way it went down, sophisticated users reading these boards could have been scammed as well. Yes the fake reservation numbers and/or doctored reservation emails wouldn’t have worked, but if he was giving out real reservation numbers and had bona fide references using his real and verifiable name and phone number, couldn’t he have pulled this off on this rental forum as well? Yes I get he would have had to pay the gold member fee but that still would have been nominal versus his take.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I admit I have never rented points. I have not rented out my points either for the same reason. I just have.... I have a lot of trust issues, OK? (For the same reason, my contracts are all direct. I would rather pay a little extra because I know if I buy from Disney I am getting the real product).

I understand your first two points, but you can and should use a licensed and insured real estate broker to purchase dvc resale. It’s akin to purchasing “used” real estate, the risk level is not the same that exists in points rental deals.

 

[suebeelin]

He was charging $17/point for most of us. While it was low, I mistakenly believed him when he said he wasn't trying to make a lot of money off of this but rather get rid of an excess of points he had.



Out of the now 22 people we've now found (who knows how more are out there!) only 3 people had valid reservation numbers given to them. Of those three only one was booked with DVC points but only for one night of a mult-night stay, two were booked with a cash deposit for one night of multi-night stays. The rest of us were either given the run around when asking for reservation numbers or were given numbers that didn't match Disney's records when trying to add to MDE.

The man claims that there's a known DVC glitch and that's why he's having all these troubles. He also claims he can only do all of this over the phone. Early on he was sending copy and pasted reservation emails that I think he fudged from past valid reservations of his own (he owns at Aulani and either also owns at VGC or stays there often).

I know that I didn't do my own diligence when booking but I checked with references and thought he was legit. He was using a phone number registered to his name and using his real Facebook account.

I don’t think $17 is so low that it’s an obvious con. Regardless, I’m so sorry. You should not be made to feel bad for being a victim.

This guy or gal is a POS with no conscience or moral compass. I feel so bad for all the families who have gotten conned.

And if you are a trusting person, it means you’re likely trustworthy and would never do unto others that which you would not want done to you.

PS…. I’m always paranoid that the few renters I’ve had in the past are worried I’m conning them so I always reach out, send them the actual confirmation page (with my member #, maybe I shouldn’t do that), etc.

I mean, how does a person know whether the owner is truly legit???? You’re strangers to each other…. Please know that the vast, vast majority of the owners on the rental board are honest; you just had some terrible luck that’s not your fault at all x

 

[KimMcGowan]

It the second point in the REQUIRED READING post for this site's rental board. It's all over all the other ones too. This isn't top secret information. This is more like not bothering to read the plumbing inspection.

I don't expect renters to know it all, and there are risks that can't be eliminated, like last minute cancellations. But the basics of confirming a reservation is in the rules of all of these sites, and has been for years. Even at my sketchy one, RIP.

I will say this, even if you know these things you can get ripped off. In 2019 my mom and girls were - maybe from the same site you are talking about. It still exists but no longer allows rent/trade boards. They researched, talked to previous renters, checked the Orange County Comptroller site and DID receive a valid reservation that linked to MDE. It showed up in MDE for two months - until suddenly it was just gone. Turns out the real owner had been hacked by some European lowlife. They did know what to do and were still ripped off. For what it is worth, It was a long process but they did get their money back.