Howie's Angels

[d-r]

I hope that the moderators of this site will endulge me in posting this, because it has truly become "Disney news" now. I understand that this has taken some inflammetary positions around the net, but it is fascinating as a case where disney fans and the disney fan web sites have become a part of the disney news. It is truly amazing to me. Please recognize that I am not trying to continue the flaming or arguing, and instead, I am interested in what people here think abouit this, because I value their insights into things disney. WIth that in mind, I'm hoping for some logical discussion about what has become an actual news peice about Disney, and I'm hoping it doesn't become a debate or argument. (PS It is my birthday and I don't want a lot of arguing, just some thoughtful conversation so don't get carried away here).

Perhaps a good place to begin is with this article from the Orlando Sentinal:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...r16.story?coll=orl-business-headlines-tourism

The story concerns the web site http://www.readersclubhouse.com . On this site, there is a group who call every morning to attempt to make PS for Cinderella's Royal Table (which we all probably know are difficult to get), and then they distribute them on the web site.

This practice set off a lot of anger in the news group rec.arts.disney.parks (you can look here at http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.arts.disney.parks&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search if you aren't familiar with using a news reader). The consensus there was that this was unfair, that the group was usurping Disney's ability to give out the PS on a first-come first-serve basis. Many posters complained that their access to the site was blocked if they attempted to question how this operated, such as how PS could be given out for days within the 60 day frame if unused PS were canceled.

I own Rita Aero's book, and so should have access to this web page, and went and read some of the breakfast club board. Personally, I think the people are probably very well intentioned, but they are just taking PS from one deserving family and moving them to another deserving family. The family that they are able to give them to is able to thank them for it profusely on the internet, and boost their egos or whatever.

Now, I want to remind you that I am posting this here because I like to hear your opinions and consider you all to be "internet friends" or whatever.

My access to the site was immediately blocked. The blocking was immediate and complete - there was no time for posting to be made, and I have no access to the the site.

So are they profiting off of making PS at walt disney world? Do you all think this is fair? I am just curious about what you all think. Personally, I don't have a problem with someone getting together with friends and agreeing to call in for each other for PS, but this seems over the top to me. It is actually amazing to me.

Again, I don't want to start flaming and arguing - I respect this board for having insightful opinions and I wonder what you all think, and it is an amazing case study to me of how the internet and fan based web sites can take on a life of their own. It is fascinating.

DR

Another PS to the moderators - I also realize that the dis and Pete Werner may have some connections and advertising arrangements or whatever with Rita Aero's site, so I hope not to step on any toes in that way - I am honestly looking for an academic sort of discussion concerning this.

 

[EUROPA]

Yes you hit the nail on the head when you said it was an Ego trip for them. Add that to the fact that its connected with a site that makes a profit and you have something good that has turned into something bad. Giving away a PS that is not going to be used is one thing., but getting up everymoring like its just Job or something. When is "Howie" going to turn his attention to Fastpassses? Maybe "Howie" would like to come out and control who gets to sit in the front of the Monorail? Maybe "Howie" can start saving large areas of pavement for the parades.

I was reading over "Howies" Breakfest Club page and is claim that they are a very small group that does not account for many of the Breakfest served or Phone calls made...is very short sighted. In fact his number do not even jive. If you went by his numbers...then they have almost 100% success rate of getting though on the first call. Plus what happens when everyone of the callers are able to get the PS....by the time they findout and start to cancel them..its too late for other guest calling in. They will have assumed that all the PS are gone for the day and give up. Another point the "Howie" does not get is that he is quoting the total number of seats per breakfast..well the total number of seats per breakfast are not available for PS's only a precentage of them are. So he is infact hording a larger number of PS's and phone calls.

Nope the best thing to do would to Limit the number of PS to 3/4f of the avaliable seating per day and require a credit card for a PS. Then keep the rest for Walkups

 

[Bob NC]

I really don't think Howie, or the website, is profiting from this. They just get a warm fuzzy feeling by helping strangers. I have said all along that I think it is completely fair for people to have their friends, relatives, whoever they want call and try to get a Cindy's PS. It is a very hard PS to get so I can see people going to extremes to get one. I can even see Howie and his 'angels' enlisting themselves to help strangers. If doing that makes them feel good, fine and dandy.

My ONLY problem with this is in their "HOLDING" of PS's after the people they were originally trying to help have 'ALREADY' obtained the needed PS.

I have tried to understand the other side of this, but, that is the one simple point I just cannot logically understand. Many people want the PS.....Why do they get to decide who gets it. What makes people that know about their website more deserving than those that don't know about their website? Since every breakfast will sell out anyway...They are not MAKING DISNEY MAGIC. Rather they are REDISTRIBUTING DISNEY MAGIC in order to receive personal adulation.

I have no problem with them continuing to do as they are now with this ONE simple exception: Cancel every PS that you were trying to get for a specific person that is no longer needed.

 

[barreloflaughs]

My thoughts:

1) Howie and company are fueling their egos:

Lets see... First create a problem (jam the phone lines and grab as many PS spots as possible). Follow up by solving the problem for a select bunch. Collect the adulation of the select bunch.

2) Disney will likely take action to discourage this type of scheme. First, there is the goodwill factor. I suspect that Disney is not happy about the fact that the grumbling has spread from the newsgroups to the newspapers. If they can do something to control this bad press they will (and it IS bad press even though the company has done nothing wrong).

Secondly, Howie and company have, I believe, made a mistake by trumpeting the fact that advertising revenues are taking off. I don't think that Disney will take kindly to their profiting from the scheme.

Get your credit cards ready.....you may need them to reserve your PS in the near future!

carl
barrel of laughs

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Bob NC
I really don't think Howie, or the website, is profiting from this.

Might want to look at that website again. They sale T-shirts...its connected with a Travel Guide about Disney World , the have Ads that pay money to the Website owners. According to one post I saw they are doing quite well in that area too. Who knows if one of them also works for one of the Travel agencys they advertise? May not have started off that way but that is where its at now.

 

[JeffJewell]

...Disney could stop this by removing the restriction on how early you can book a PS (at the very least, allow booking a PS anytime after you book your Disney resort) and by taking credit card numbers for them. This would make the system truly first-come, first-served; eliminate the insane early-morning dialing race it is now; and eliminate third parties making PS in bulk.

It obviously doesn't bother Disney that this is happening, so there is no one with the ability to put a stop to it who cares about putting a stop to it. Whether it's "fair" or not simply doesn't factor in to this... that determination rarely factors in to real life at all, actually.

Disney set the rules of this game, and the Angels found a niche within that framework to set up their own game, with their own rules. As with any game set up by someone else, you are free only to choose whether or not to play; you are powerless to change the rules.

Jeff

 

[Mrs. Snowgod]

It seems to me that if one has to lie to obtain something, there is an inherent wrong taking place.

When I have called to make PS ressies for my upcoming trip (no, not CRT, yet), I have had to provide my check in date and which resort I am staying at. Since I am making the reservations for my own party, I have answered those questions. If I refused to answer, would I still get the PS? I don't know, but I infer that there could be complications.

I have to wonder what info Howie's group is providing to obtain these ressies. Are they making up a name, check-in date and resort? Are they disclosing that they are going to redistribute the ressies on a Web site?

Bottom line - IMHO this situation is inappropriate.

 

[Another Voice]

The “I’m more famous than Osma bin Laden” quote in the article tells me everything I need to know about this man’s personality and his relationship with reality.

I think the real term for this practice is “ticket scalping”.

 

[JeffJewell]

...you do not have to be staying on Disney property, or even vacationing, to make a PS. Locals would not have a resort or check-in date, but can legally get a PS.

Jeff

PS: Looking back at my posts, it almost seems as though I'm defending the Angels; that was not my intent: speaking as a person who typically plans trips a year or more in advance (and would be ready to book PS's that far ahead, too) I think what they're doing stinks, and it can wreak havoc with a lot of my careful planning when I can't get through until 7:02 and my PS's are gone by then. But Disney is the only entity that can do anything about this, so it seems less than useful to expel much bile towards Howie.

 

[raidermatt]

I think the real term for this practice is “ticket scalping”.

I agree. The only difference is that in this case, the profit is made indirectly, through ad revenue and merhandise sales.

At the very least, I'd like to see Disney implement the credit card requirement. I'd also like them to at least consider giving an earlier PS window to on-site guests, similar to the way they take golf tee-time requests. On-site can make PS's 90 days out, everyone else 30 days out. The would be another perk that could be listed when people ask why they should stay on-site.

(I say consider because I acknowledge that there is a negative to this, and that is the possibility that off-site guests would be more likely to spend their day somewhere other than WDW if they can't get their PS. Probably a very small number, but unless the practice produced some kind of gain in on-site guests, it could still be a loss. My feeling is that there wouldn't be a loss, and might even be a gain, but I have no data to back that up.)

 

[DNSDisney]

It is true about them blocking some AOL people. Please refer to my post on the debate board.
By the way , i love the Goggle site.

Sharon

 

[Snowgod]

I agree that it is up to Disney to deal with this problem. I also think that WDW guests staying onsite should get first crack at PS. While I have purchased the book in question and even given them as gifts, I will no longer support any group that uses lies and misrepresentations.

 

[Braque]

Once Disney realizes someone is indirectly making a profit by selectively handing out PS’s to
certain guests, what will stop Disney from doing it themselves?

I like Europa’s post:
“When is "Howie" going to turn his attention to Fastpasses? Maybe "Howie" would like to come out and control who gets to sit in the front of the Monorail? Maybe "Howie" can start saving large areas of pavement for the parades.”

I would not like it but would not be surprised to see Disney offering these select perks to guests willing to pay more for the ‘service’. Would you pay an extra $10 to have a guaranteed ride in the front of the Monorail? How about an extra $20 to be seated in a special parade viewing area, so that you wouldn’t have to fight the crowds? Don’t they already charge extra to view the MK fireworks from the Castle rose garden?

This is all kind of like closing the parks early and then having guests pay extra to stay in the park and ride the ‘E’ Ticket attractions. Hmmm.

 

[Jimbo564]

Originally posted by d-r


This debate has spread across the Disney-fan corners of the internet. It's almost like there is a macro-community of disney fan sites made of micro-communities that use different technologies and forums. It's as if these "micro-communities" that make up the macro-community of disney-fan sites have became inter-twined in this debate.

I just think the process of the debate itself is very interesting to observe, outside the question of the fairness of the actions of the breakfast club. I guess I'm just an egghead like that. Thanks for endulging me.

DR

D-R,

I am sincerely impressed with the quality of your post. I am also impressed with the amount of research you have done, your knowledge base that you state facts on and your ability to understand human nature as it applies to this anonymous forum called the internet (web sites, usenet, irc, et al). You have most eloquently described this fickle environment we call home, masterfully. My attempt was less than par compared to yours as my statement elsewhere read:

*** "The most common trait I see in most newsgroups is their ability to gang up and beat the proverbial dead horse (glue factory for everyone!). I "subscribe" to half a dozen different ones and this characteristic isn't limited to any particular newsgroup. I believe the anonymity provided by the internet lends itself to this type of "feeding frenzy". It is comical the way they befriend or turn against each other depending on a topic. (i.e. Can I tow xxx camper with my Geo Metro?) I saw a gardening example here earlier today.

I believe one could just throw out a simple comment like "Monday or Tuesday?" into almost any usenet newsgroup and have a fiery conversation, then after that died down post "Wednesday or Thursday?" and see how the battlelines shift.

Now, don't get me wrong. The usenet newsgroups are a tremendous place to get information and is a community of people that -I feel- genuinely can assist people, answer questions and provide guidance. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water." ***

I also do not intend on debating for either side as I can see and (I think) understand both sides of this issue and feel that opinions about each side have been formed with neither side gaining headway in any forum but their own, with accolades to their own (deservedly so as "you're among friends.") But be that as it may, soon enough this issue will run its course and there will be other issues at hand to be debated.

I especially enjoyed the micro / macro community insight. As you can see by my signature I also am a planner.

Once again, honored to have read your posts, on multiple locations,

Jim

P.S. Happy birthday!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Braque - hello fellow Hudson Valley DISer.

WDW does many of the things you mentioned. Its called....

E night (as you point out)
Annual Passholder viewing area for Illuminations
Getting access to a concierge (who can get you a CRT ressie, among other things) after paying beaucoup bucks for a concierge room

I'm sure we can think of others.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Braque - hello fellow Hudson Valley DISer.

WDW does many of the things you mentioned. Its called....

E night (as you point out)
Annual Passholder viewing area for Illuminations
Getting access to a concierge (who can get you a CRT ressie, among other things) after paying beaucoup bucks for a concierge room

I'm sure we can think of others.

Couple of points. I don't really agree with all of the stuff that Disney does...but it is thier "place" ... hehe.

Some would say that everyone still has access to those Perks offered by Disney...they just have to willing to pay more.

We are not a communist society where everything is listed as being" Equal " and for everyone. We are capitalist that being said the playing field should still be relative level for everyone. I know it’s a dream. Without "Howie" everyone had the same basic chance to get the reservation. Now they don't. Howie is simply taking happiness from one party and moving it to one that he has contact with and can receive some sort of satisfaction and admiration from.

 

[d-r]

wow, thanks Jimbo, I really appreciate your kind comments.

DR

PS But I'm afraid that you might have made my point about the irony of my own post....

 

[Annie&Hallie'sMom]

While I have nothing very insightful to say on this subject (my opinion is that it's ok for you and as many people who will be in your party that day call to get CRT but no more. For example, if you want a ressie for 5, 5 people could try -- although they do not necessarily have to be the people attending. There's no rhyme or reason to this thought other than it seems somewhat fair and realize that you can't enforce it at all).

However, I am incredibly impressed by the quality of posts on this topic. The thought and knowledge that has gone into the majority of the replies is unbelievable! If you were trying to impress me (and hence get me to come back to this board more often, you've succeded).

I'd like to say "well done" to all of you!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Some would say that everyone still has access to those Perks offered by Disney...they just have to willing to pay more.

Isn't it unfair to those that don't have the advantage of being able to pay more?

If you can pay more you get an advantage.
If you have a computer and know about a website you can get an advantage.
If you are a 20 year old from Georgia you can get an advantage. (BTW - if I took home $58 mil after taxes I'd buy you all a breakfast at CRT - if I could only get a @#$%^ PS for 100)

That leads to an interesting question. If I offered you the breakfast but Howie got the PS would you take it? But, I digress.

There are all different kinds of advantages (and evils, depending on how you view things ) and people use them all the time. Does that make everyone wrong?

I doubt Howie tilts the playing field as much as some imagine.

Level playing field. Did we get back to debate about a utopian society?

 

[d-r]

Disneykidds..
honestly, at this point in my life I wouldn't go to breakfast at CRT if you or even Howie was buying - Melissa and I do not have any children yet, and to be honest, it sounds like one heck of a nightmare to me. But I always figure to each his own, and I figure that I will have a child to drag me in there some day.

DR