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Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

I don't know total numbers but I remeber hearing forbidden journey cost less than 200 million I believe.

Wow really. That's not too bad IMO. But the HP project at IOA had to be a lot more total correct? Then DA and HE would be even higher. Toss in Transformers, Minions rework, Simpsons rework and Rip Ride and now Kong. Gotta be $2 Billion to $3 Billion? Maybe more?
 
$5 Billion sounds like a huge number, but when broken up over A. a decade-long period of time and B. all of the areas throughout WDW needing attention, you could probably very easily justify double that amount and still have areas that have been missed / need attention. $5 billion over a decade breaks out to $500M per year in investment. Disney Parks & Resorts earned $15.1B in 2014 revenue, so that equates to only ~3% worth of total revenues being reinvested annually. Also remember that $1B of that investment figure was MM+, which IMHO, was not designed to enhance the guest experience, but rather, control crowds and track spending behavior.

I thought $5 Billion plus without MM+

And is "Disney Parks and Resorts" just WDW?
 
Disney's big problem will be when the economy tanks again. They've gotten expensive but the free spending of the American people have gone with it. When there's a downturn they'll be hit hard. (But Universal will be too.)

I have been thinking the same thing for a long time. The entire DVC concept is a double edge sword, they make money on long term commitments when things are good however they stop receiving new commitments when things go south AND there are many who will simply choose to walk away and return the keys when things go south. They are draining the ability to meet the needs of the larger masses by chasing after the ones with the most to spend right now. If I was in charge, and clearly I am not, I would find a way to establish a price point that maximizes the travel ability and capacity of common people while creating maximum efficiency on that price. A couple making $150,000 may by DVC today but when, and it is going to happen, the economy corrects that family will no longer be able to afford DVC and its yearly upkeep. Yes Disney got 25K upfront from them but now that spot sits open and the yearly fees they plan to receive are no longer there. A couple making $50,000 is not a DVC customer but they would love to stay in the All-Star today and they are just as likely to stay there when the market corrects as their income is most likely rather normalized as it is. I think Disney is looking long term at a flat map, that is their beliefs are contingent upon a reality that does not truly exist. The government says unemployment is 5.5% but that is a lie. the real unemployment rate is 12%-18% and over 100 million Americans are not in the workforce. Couple this with national and state debts and it is clear things are not quite as rosy as painted. When the Greece fire ignites in the next few days or weeks it could set off a firestorm in overseas markets and that could begin the correction process here. Disney is ready to announce all this expansion but I think their financial base may be eroded from them before they complete the project. That could lead to a real mess for them.
 
A couple making $150,000 may by DVC today but when, and it is going to happen, the economy corrects that family will no longer be able to afford DVC and its yearly upkeep. Yes Disney got 25K upfront from them but now that spot sits open and the yearly fees they plan to receive are no longer there. A couple making $50,000 is not a DVC customer but they would love to stay in the All-Star today and they are just as likely to stay there when the market corrects as their income is most likely rather normalized as it is.

Not following.

Are you saying the $150K couple lost their job, but the $50K couple did not?

If not, then why wouldn't the $150K couple be able to afford $5 dues for their stays?

They could stay in an OKW studio for 10 points a night, app $50.

But yet a $50K couple can afford app $100 a night?


Secondly-the economy did correct (quite badly) in 2008. An economic collapse like Greece-well yea then.
 


Not following.

Are you saying the $150K couple lost their job, but the $50K couple did not?

If not, then why wouldn't the $150K couple be able to afford $5 dues for their stays?

They could stay in an OKW studio for 10 points a night, app $50.

But yet a $50K couple can afford app $100 a night?


Secondly-the economy did correct (quite badly) in 2008. An economic collapse like Greece-well yea then.


In hindsight I may have rambled a little, let me try again. In an economic downturn the people that tend to see the greatest drop in annual income are those at the very bottom and those at the top. Those at the bottom are most likely to lose their job as there are other ways to do the same job or a large pool of people willing to do it at a lower price. Those toward the top suffer in two ways, their salaries become targets for downsizing and they are also hit on their investment portfolio. The middle is not a great place to be either as we all get hit however they work for a "fair" wage and are in jobs requiring adequate skill. The key thing is which family is most likely to have spent above their means and be at max credit? That could be either, none, or both. My initial point was the family who is looking to do Disney in an affordable nature should still be able to because they are not seeking to go so far and above for the Deluxe stays that Disney is catering to. Those who want the pampering will no longer be able to stretch themselves to make it happen and that pool of funds dries up. They are seeking to earn the money of the top 20% when it is those between 45% and 75% that provide the largest pool to draw from. As for the dues, lets sat that 25K gets you 250 points. At the current rate of $5.05 at Bay Lake Towers, the annual maintenance and tax bill $1,262.50. If you have a house bill and this bill comes due and you have not saves up, plenty of people will simply walk away. is I hope I made my argument a little better...

As for the correction of 2008, yes things corrected however we have seen growth of 164% since then and the Dow is not too far off its all time high. We have propped ourselves up with artificial interest rates, stretched data, and good ole American overspending. We are going to have a repeat of 2008 because very few people learned anything from it. The question is when in the next 3 years does it happen?
 
You're right, I meant the Little Mermaid omnimover ride, not boat. I didn't think it was a spectacular addition, I just thought it was really nice. Which is all I need from a park that is already fantastic.
The biggest issue is we had with it is that it wasn't even "new". Essentially they just took an attraction from DL and plugged it in. I know there isn't a real cross contamination of customers but with almost 80 years of movies to pull from you couldn't pick something else.

We're not ones that thinks everytime we go there should be something new but I would like things to actually work and be maintained and that's an area they've really let go. Remember when they used to repair and/or replace things that didn't work? Now they just let things sit which bothers me more than not seeing something new.

The thing about the new which I find troubling is that none of it is actually Disney. Just think at one time they built things based on new ideas and in house developed stories and technology. All of HS expansion rumors are centered around things Disney now owns but not things they created. The biggest loss in the company certainly seems to be vision, imagination and creativity.

As for the differences between Hong Kong and the U.S. parks I think that is as simple as one is owned by a company that is focussed on the theme park and guest experience and one is focussed on studio production and profit margins.
 
In hindsight I may have rambled a little, let me try again. In an economic downturn the people that tend to see the greatest drop in annual income are those at the very bottom and those at the top. Those at the bottom are most likely to lose their job as there are other ways to do the same job or a large pool of people willing to do it at a lower price. Those toward the top suffer in two ways, their salaries become targets for downsizing and they are also hit on their investment portfolio. The middle is not a great place to be either as we all get hit however they work for a "fair" wage and are in jobs requiring adequate skill. The key thing is which family is most likely to have spent above their means and be at max credit? That could be either, none, or both. My initial point was the family who is looking to do Disney in an affordable nature should still be able to because they are not seeking to go so far and above for the Deluxe stays that Disney is catering to. Those who want the pampering will no longer be able to stretch themselves to make it happen and that pool of funds dries up. They are seeking to earn the money of the top 20% when it is those between 45% and 75% that provide the largest pool to draw from. As for the dues, lets sat that 25K gets you 250 points. At the current rate of $5.05 at Bay Lake Towers, the annual maintenance and tax bill $1,262.50. If you have a house bill and this bill comes due and you have not saves up, plenty of people will simply walk away. is I hope I made my argument a little better...

As for the correction of 2008, yes things corrected however we have seen growth of 164% since then and the Dow is not too far off its all time high. We have propped ourselves up with artificial interest rates, stretched data, and good ole American overspending. We are going to have a repeat of 2008 because very few people learned anything from it. The question is when in the next 3 years does it happen?

Lots of good points for sure. But you can't convince me having only a "dues" payment to DVC for WDW is unwise-assuming you are an avid WDW fan that wants to go very year, compared to having to pay cash if even for a value room.

You randomly picked 250 points at $1262 in dues-well thats 3 and 1/2 weeks at OKW, or only 12 days at Allstars.

I can just as easily pick 150 points (probably the most common ownership) and it drops to app $750 ($62 per month). Thats is the same price the $50K couple will pay for a week at Allstars-yet the $150K couple gets dropped to what..$100K from the recession, and can get 2 full weeks at OKW, or 10 days at BCV ($75 per night and no tax at BCV) or a week in a 1BR at AKV.

Or sell the DVC for $20K and have 28 weeks at Allstars.
 


I remember going to Universal from their opening all the way through 2003. That year I was a young married mum and my then husband and I had such a horrible time at Universal that we vowed never to return. It's 2015 and now I'm a little older divorced mum of two and I still have no interest in returning even with the addition of HP world. My girls have zero interest either because if they did I would suck it up and take them but nope they don't. However, ask them where they want to go every year and most years it's Disney. Last year we skipped because we went to Mexico for my daughter's sweet 16 and next year I'll be taking my DD 10 for a mummy and me short trip to celebrate her completing elementary school and I'll be taking my DD 17 to London for her high school graduation present. As for this year all 10 days in Florida will be spent happily in Disney.

So to sum it up - nothing Universal does interest me, I have not attachment to it like I do with Disney.
 
Let's see, since 2010:

New Fantasy Land

Which features one new attraction and some modest upgrades. Woopy-doo.

Avatar Land

Which doesn't even exist yet and per latest updates is going to include just a boat ride and a re-packaging of "soarin"

Disney Springs

Which is downgrade of the old DTD (many of us still miss PI)

Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)

Yeah, they "upgraded" another WS boat ride. Woopy-doo.

Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)

I thought FP+ took care of all the long line issues. You mean it didn't?

Grand Floridian and Polynesian Vacation Club options

Which are of absolutely no benefit to 95% of those coming to WDW.

And now in a month they'll (almost assuredly) announce a huge expansion at DHS.

What are you going to to tell is "in a month" if said announcement doesn't happen or is just more of this tweaking of existing attractions/underwhelming new additions?

I just don't get the idea Disney is just resting on its laurels.

Oh, really? Then please explain to this DVC member why he keeps seeing the same drill at the DVC hotel exit every morning when we visit. A long line of people waiting to get into the Mears shuttle that is heading over to Universal. If the brain trust in Anaheim was really doing their math, they'd be shocked at the amount of guest spend by their most supposedly loyal customers that is already going to a competitor. And why is that?

Because they have become complacent and yes, are resting on their increasingly faded laurels.
 
Let's see, since 2010:

New Fantasy Land
Avatar Land
Disney Springs
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)
Grand Floridian and Polynesian Vacation Club options.

From 1989 - 1999
Disney-MGM Studios
Typhoon Lagoon
Pleasure Island
Star Tours
Muppet Vision 3D
Tower of Terror
Rockin' Roller Coaster
Splash Mountain
Mickey's Starland
ExtraTERRORestrial Alien Encounter
Wonders of Life
Norway
Test Track
Soarin
Animal Kingdom
Blizzard Beach
Yacht Club Resort
Beach Club Resort
Caribbean Beach Resort
Port Orleans
Dixie Landings
All Star Sports, Music, and Movies Resorts
Coronado Springs

.........and many other additions I may have not remembered.
 
Oh, really? Then please explain to this DVC member why he keeps seeing the same drill at the DVC hotel exit every morning when we visit. A long line of people waiting to get into the Mears shuttle that is heading over to Universal. If the brain trust in Anaheim was really doing their math, they'd be shocked at the amount of guest spend by their most supposedly loyal customers that is already going to a competitor. And why is that?.

Well some of us Disney fans would never do that. Not when a cab is faster. :car:

Seriously we love a day trip to UN/IOA. But they could add 3 E tickets to each WDW park and guess what, we would still do a day trip to US/IOA.
 
I don't think Disney is screwed. I think that they are two very different parks..at least imo. I love Universal. We were able to go last summer and had a blast. It really appealed to my older kids who wanted to ride some faster rides. I know for us(we stay offsite) , the Universal trip was definitely cheaper ticket wise and we had their hopper(park to park). Plus I was impressed with different restaurants in City walk that were reasonable. But we are headed back to Disney this summer. For my family, Disney is about the feeling it gives us. I love feeling like a kid again. I get giddy whenever I see a character. Of course I know it's some adult under there...but it's easy to suspend belief and feel like your in a magical place. My whole family tends to feel it. At Universal is was more excitement and exhilaration riding some crazy rides. So I think they both are great parks and speak differently to people. I don't think either should be screwed..
 
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Wow really. That's not too bad IMO. But the HP project at IOA had to be a lot more total correct? Then DA and HE would be even higher. Toss in Transformers, Minions rework, Simpsons rework and Rip Ride and now Kong. Gotta be $2 Billion to $3 Billion? Maybe more?
Yeah I don't know totals I'd have to look around.
 
A lot of kids are born every year, like 4 million. So its ALL new to them.

Just sent a 3rd family this year that had never been there before. All at BLT-a great DVC and location.

So here is what they are (and will be seeing since they have a 1 and 2yo) seeing:

Everything from 1971 to 1989 plus:

From 1989 to 2020:

Disney-MGM Studios
Typhoon Lagoon
Pleasure Island
Star Tours
Muppet Vision 3D
Tower of Terror
Rockin' Roller Coaster
Splash Mountain
Mickey's Starland
ExtraTERRORestrial Alien Encounter
Wonders of Life
Norway
Test Track
Soarin
Animal Kingdom
Blizzard Beach
Yacht Club Resort
Beach Club Resort
Caribbean Beach Resort
Port Orleans
Dixie Landings
All Star Sports, Music, and Movies Resorts
Coronado Springs
Soarin
Expedition Everest
TSM
Wishes
New Fantasy Land
Avatar Land
AK night show
Ak night safari
Disney Springs
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)
And whatever $3 to $4 Billion more will be adding
 
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The thing about the new which I find troubling is that none of it is actually Disney. Just think at one time they built things based on new ideas and in house developed stories and technology. All of HS expansion rumors are centered around things Disney now owns but not things they created. The biggest loss in the company certainly seems to be vision, imagination and creativity.
But see DHS is the perfect place for that. Hollywood studios is supposed to be all about the movies and Hollywood. Having the non-Disney created things there is better than having them in the other parks.
 
I don't know Magic Kingdom is already kind of packed. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can do that whole resort in a day :P

HaHa, yea not my point.

My point is we will earmark a UN/IOA no matter what WDW adds.

Why on earth anybody would think if WDW would just add enough new stuff-nobody would go check out UN/IOA and what they have added, including HP at both, is beyond me.

Prob half the folks designing/building/maintaining/acting and working at US/IOA also worked at WDW anyway-why can't they create awesome things for us to enjoy.
 
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A lot of kids are born every year, like 4 million. So its ALL new to them.

Just sent a 3rd family this year that had never been there before. All at BLT-a great DVC and location.

So here is what they are (and will be seeing since they have a 1 and 2yo) seeing:

Everything from 1971 to 1989 plus:

From 1989 to 2020:

Disney-MGM Studios
Typhoon Lagoon
Pleasure Island
Star Tours
Muppet Vision 3D
Tower of Terror
Rockin' Roller Coaster
Splash Mountain
Mickey's Starland
ExtraTERRORestrial Alien Encounter
Wonders of Life
Norway
Test Track
Soarin
Animal Kingdom
Blizzard Beach
Yacht Club Resort
Beach Club Resort
Caribbean Beach Resort
Port Orleans
Dixie Landings
All Star Sports, Music, and Movies Resorts
Coronado Springs
Soarin
Expedition Everest
TSM
Wishes
New Fantasy Land
Avatar Land
AK night show
Ak night safari
Disney Springs
Frozen ride (yeah yeah..)
Additional capacity to TSM and Soarin (cutting our wait times in half does matter)
And whatever $3 to $4 Billion more will be adding
Only thing is since 2000 things have slowed down drastically. DHS was slapped together when it was built, hopefully finally it will be a full time park.
 
Only thing is since 2000 things have slowed down drastically. DHS was slapped together when it was built, hopefully finally it will be a full time park.

Point is many, maybe most don't know that. So why would it matter?

We could easily be saying yea from 2010 to 2020 they added a ton-why so little from 2020 to 2030?

Actually when they get home I will ask them:

So did you notice how little was done from 2000 to 2010?
 
Point is many, maybe most don't know that. So why would it matter?

We could easily be saying yea from 2010 to 2020 they added a ton-why so little from 2020 to 2030?

Actually when they get home I will ask them:

So did you notice how little was done from 2000 to 2010?
I understand I guess my point is they could spread it out better instead of doing these construction booms. AK, DTD, DHS, Epcot all have projects going on at the same time. The DHS projects have been pushed off for three years already.
 

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