Need opinions: Teens sporting question

Are there even "clubs" for those sports? Around here, the same emphasis is placed on the club team for basketball, soccer, baseball, and softball. I'm sure college coaches go to watch a basketball player at HS, but I'm not sure that would be their first look. They've probably seen these kids play at club tournaments.

Someone ONLY playing HS and getting college offers? EXTREMELY rare around here if it ever happens.

Lacrosse definitely does - I would actually put that sport in the "club over HS" category.

I know a couple kids who do track and wresting with clubs, but I agree that HS competition is probably as good as those.

Otherwise, I generally agree with the previous poster - club teams are the more heavily recruited group versus HS teams. Soccer is a prime example - the vast majority of players getting Division 1 scholarships don't even play for their HS team, they only play academy soccer.
 
OK, after thought and some checking, assuming that this *is* a Synchro skating team (and her comments point to it), I think it is a different scenario than I first guessed. (And yes, I'm having fun guessing, but Synchro is an unusual sport that doesn't operate with the same type of selection process that most team youth sports do, so with Synchro the usual youth sport expectations don't quite apply. Besides, the more people who hear about Synchronized Skating, the better, because it is a really fun thing to watch, and a great option for skaters who will not be individual champions. BTW, while Synchro is a mostly-female sport, it is fully open to male participants; we just don't get that many at this point. That will almost certainly change if the sport is added to the Olympics for 2022; that decision will be made by the IOC this month.)

In Synchro skating, the usual difference between a club team and a rec team is kind of mushy. Most of the time the rinks are owned by a local government, but the team skating programs are run by private clubs that are home-based at that rink. The club's coaches may or may not also be local gov't employees, and the club provides coaches for the public learn-to-skate programs that the rink hosts. Most kids who go through the learn-to-skate programs and want to go higher then join the club in order to compete. The club has a contract to pay for ice time for members, which insures that the local govt. has a steady stream of income to help with maintenance costs. FWIW, high-level Synchro is an expensive sport to run; our club fields 7 teams (3 of which are national-level), and the program budget is around $350K. Each national-level skater's annual team fees are about $5K, which includes competition costumes, team ice time, travel expenses (except food, with is paid separately), and team coaching, including special workshops. It does not include skates (which are at least $300/pr), practice or travel uniforms, private practice ice time (minimum 3 hours per week, at about $10/hr), testing fees, dance classes, or private coaching, which is at least $60/hr, and the team requires skaters to have at least 2 lessons a week.) The extra individual costs usually run an additional $2K per season for each skater. (USFSA and clubs do fund grants to help pay for skating for kids who are talented but don't have the family money to compete.) There is no NCAA figure skating program, so no athletic scholarships; college teams are almost all club teams, though there are a few colleges that fund varsity teams. The season runs from October to April; the average team will compete about 6-8 times per season. Tryouts are normally in April, and the competitive standard is that every team member must try out every year, there are no bye-spots. Practice begins immediately after acceptance of offers in May, but doesn't go to full schedule until August. Regional-only teams will normally practice 1-2 hours per week, nationally competitive teams will practice anywhere from 6-20 hours per week, depending on level.

Here is an example scenario that fits the OP's question. I don't know if this is the program the OP was posting about, but it might be: there is a program in the South that is currently on a big push to go from what was a essentially a very good-quality rec team to a national competitor. Two clubs consolidated their Synchro programs, then hired a new coach who is quite young, but not quite just out of college; she is 27 years old. One of the oddities of figure skating (and particularly Synchro) is that you can be in your mid-twenties and have over 10 years of paid coaching experience, which this coach does. (This is because many serious figure skaters often start coaching young children at age 15 to make money to pay for skating expenses. It's very common for them to coach all the way through college, even if they are skating on a competitive team at the same time, because young coaches normally make about $30/hr tax-free giving private lessons.) All of her assistant coaches there are quite young as well, some of them still in school.

So, why didn't the other 2 seniors make the top-level team: the most likely reason is that the new coach is trying to take the program to a nationally-competitive level, and has added a higher-level team than the program previously fielded. That team has a higher minimum Moves in the Field test requirement, and it is probable that these two skaters haven't passed it, and are unlikely to pass it before the October 1st deadline for this season, and are thus ineligible. This would definitely fall into the category of something that would have been prepared for if it were known, but if the packet explained that the program was going for national competition levels, then it would have been simple to look up what the USFSA requirements would be in order to make a national-level team in that age range. The thing is, it is only in the past 4 years or so that USFS has gotten really strict about testing for all team levels, it used to be encouraged but not required, and we've had a hard time getting it through to younger skaters that failure to pass the test means that you won't be on the team, even if you can do all the moves in the program. (I'm really not getting the "top 10%" thing. I very much doubt that was a stated objective; it's likely that it just fell out that way.) For the program I mentioned above, the new top-level team has a test requirement that is 3 levels higher that that of their previous top-level team. The tests are required to be taken in sequence, & it is a nearly impossible feat to pass 3 MIF tests in less than one year. If these skaters had not already been independently pursuing higher test achievements than were previously required, they simply could not manage the needed preparation in the time available.

About Testing: In figure skating "testing" is a technical term. Tests don't happen at tryouts. Testing is a formal process that all USFSA competitive skaters must go through to prove that they have mastered certain skills & program elements; the test level you have passed determines what competitions you are allowed to enter. For Synchro, each team level (there are 14 levels, and some overlap by age &/or skill) has a minimum test that all team members must have passed to be allowed to be on the team. Skaters can re-test every 28 days, and you can try as many times as you need to to pass, but some of the tests are quite difficult; it is not unusual for a skater to put 20 hours of individual practice in weekly for nearly a year just to prepare for one higher-level test. Synchro teams require the Moves in the Field series of tests, but there are 4 other test series, Freestyle & Pairs (which includes the jumps), and 2 series of Ice Dances; truly elite Synchro skaters test all of them except Pairs.)


Well you had me googling ....... Synchronized Skating.

All the sports we watch here, all the Olympics that stays on tv ............. I never saw that or heard of it.

Call me enlightened today.
 
Well you had me googling ....... Synchronized Skating.

All the sports we watch here, all the Olympics that stays on tv ............. I never saw that or heard of it.

Call me enlightened today.

Me too!! That was a very interesting read, I have never heard of Synchronized Skating before, but I will keep a look out now, it sounds interesting.
 
In reverse:

Things do run different ways in different places. Here, most high school sports are not at all what college coaches look at or have first word in athletes training/performance. High School teams are pride only, club teams are what matters. And yes, those are under the rules of the national but not when it comes to how they run their clubs..

Yeah, we have a group of our 13 year olds from Little League form a USSSA team, they did very well, won the World Series in 2000. But lord, over three months each player (more correctly their parents) racked up $20,000 in travel, food and hotel expenses, and a few of the kids were sooooo burned out they gave up baseball before they hit High School. 60 games over three months for a 13 year old is just too many in my opinion.
 


Are there even "clubs" for those sports? Around here, the same emphasis is placed on the club team for basketball, soccer, baseball, and softball. I'm sure college coaches go to watch a basketball player at HS, but I'm not sure that would be their first look. They've probably seen these kids play at club tournaments.

Someone ONLY playing HS and getting college offers? EXTREMELY rare around here if it ever happens.

Well one reason they made the list is their club options are limited and may be more dependent on the HS system. In reverse the ones with the clubs depend on the club system for getting seen.

Football - all club until you get to high school. Here football is king so tremendous resources are poured into the school programs and you'd never get those kind of resources and highly paid coaches in a club environment.

Wrestling - Yes, we do have numerous options for club wrestling. I would imagine the club tournaments are a big draw for college coaches but am betting on the huge state tournaments with school teams being a major player. I think one reason is that it is a short season and plenty of time left for training during the year if they don't do another sport ... around here football or track.

Lacrosse - Really young sport here, like started maybe 15 years ago. Clubs are growing but mostly in affluent areas even though it is a state wide sport. Kids on the high school teams are going to tournaments in addition to regular season.

Track & Cross Country are the sports that is both individual and team. High School coaches teams of kids and of course work is to get each kid to their potential. A single athlete can win a Team State Championship for their school in Track. There are lots of clubs and lots of coaches. Most of them focus on Track but given they train some distance kids will at times participate in elite cross country meets. Distance running is year round so for many they train and compete with their school all but about 12 weeks a year (break after fall and spring season but train rest of year) - but they have to train on their own. Track has advantage of of official times, will get watched at State and Elite meets with and without their school. Cross Country gets narrowed by times but coaches want to see them physically so that can be State meets or elite meets (with or without their school). Cross Country is almost all accomplished via the high school system. Many private distance coaches are ... "pre-programmed" to coach adults and that is a whole different animal than growing kids so best to avoid the private coaching. The coaches that schools hire like this usually end up with a large number of "broken" kids. Been there and seen that for years.
 
Baseball here ... you might get looked at if you get to the end brackets of the State Tournament but most is addressed by club tournaments where they can see many. Know someone from here that is in majors. He played club ball and HS ball and recruited at 17. Kids play on a summer team, a fall team and then high school team.

Our small town has 14 dedicated ball fields used mostly by club (one park is ALL club) and currently building another 10 fields dedicated to baseball. This doesn't count the flex fields they have that can host soccer, lacrosse and younger team baseball. Non-school baseball teams have more dedicated space than any other sport in our town. And this is replicated all around here.

Summer ball here isn’t much to it. The kids play more because they just want to. Most HS don’t play fall ball.

Baseball is a huge hs sport here and well supported. Second only to football. So the fields are better, the programs are better. Parents will pay big bucks to get their kid in the “right” school for baseball.
 
Summer ball here isn’t much to it. The kids play more because they just want to. Most HS don’t play fall ball.

Baseball is a huge hs sport here and well supported. Second only to football. So the fields are better, the programs are better. Parents will pay big bucks to get their kid in the “right” school for baseball.

What does this mean? [BOLD]
 


Well you had me googling ....... Synchronized Skating.
All the sports we watch here, all the Olympics that stays on TV ............. I never saw that or heard of it.
Call me enlightened today.

You're welcome :)

Synchro is a very fast-growing sport these days. It started in the 1950's in Michigan, but it really took off in Northern Europe, and the US lags behind them a bit in world competition. Finland is the powerhouse nation in the sport, followed by Russia and then Canada.
Internationally, US teams commonly come in just under medal level, but sometimes better. The Skyliners (NYC) took the silver at the Junior level at this year's world championships.

There are currently about 600 USFS Synchronized Skating programs operating in the US, with each one fielding between 2 to 10 teams of around 12-16 skaters each. Our club has 118 skaters participating on 7 teams, ranging in age from 5-18. It's a fast and dangerous sport, too, because teams get credit for speed; the best teams move around the ice at an average speed of about 20 mph, so it's really fun to watch. This is an ISU promo video for the Olympic inclusion campaign; it mentions 32 blades because senior teams have 16 members:

Many people ask me why we support it; they think DD is shooting for the Olympics. She's not. Members of Synchro Teams are not trying to become professional athletes or even stars; they are mostly anonymous & do this because they love skating and want to do it at a fairly high competitive level; they also like spending time with other people who want the same thing. The girls spend so many hours together and depend on one another for safety so much that after a few seasons they form a lifelong bond, and all of those hours on the ice and in gyms and on buses and in hotel rooms together, (plus the academic requirements) tend to keep them pretty focused; they simply don't have time to get into too much trouble. (Also, you would not believe the fitness of these athletes. Not only do they have excellent stamina and flexibility, but their strength is enormous, because they have to be able to routinely move against the pressure of the weight of 15 other people.) FWIW, Synchro athletes don't do big jumps in competition, so they very seldom obsess about weight and are not as prone to the eating disorders that have become common among singles skaters. There are quite a few adult Masters competitors still skating in their 70's; the kids cheer like mad when they see those teams at competitions.
 
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Wow have I ever started a conversation! :flower1: I still haven't been able to go through all the responses. Sometimes people need tough love but I do feel like my child has been betrayed by her family. This has been something she has been committed to for a long time. She is actually handling it way better than me. I get where everyone is coming from but the way the communication both before and after the results has been appalling. Sometimes people just want to be heard. And yes I know some of this is on my child.

I said they should have done their best. Ds was always taught to practice/try out the way he plays. Every time he got on the field he was to give 110%.

If the coach was going to make changes, he should have communicated the changes to the team and the parents. In most try outs you know what you are being judged on, but if he was cutting 4 spots and senority wasn’t going to matter as it had for years before, it should have been communicated.

Not a sport but when dd’s choir director changed up how he handled auditions, he was very clear to the kids. Previously they made the upper choir based on ability and seniority. When he based it only on ability, he made it very clear to the older students. It’s only fair.
Agree!
 
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[snip]
BINGO. YOU'RE THE WINNER. I loved how most of the posts assumed my child was a boy. You all are sexist. LOL (Please insert joking tone in my typing) I worked really hard not to give away the sport but I must have slipped up at some point. We have only been doing USFS for 2 years. We had been doing ISI competitions until then. We did one open level competition the first year and 2 of the other advanced levels (I don't even recall the name) last year. Last year we had an issue where one of the skater's (a senior) didn't pass the the qualifying level (I think it was juvenile) but there really isn't much that could be done since the judging is fairly objective and the judges are people we don't really know. She was still able to compete in the ISI competitions. Yes my child has passed every test required to skate at the level the team is skating otherwise this would be a no brainer. (Sorry if my terminology is off. I find USFS rules and terminology confusing.)

I thought you might have been trying to obfuscate what it was. Sorry. (Any time that happens around here someone almost always figures it out.)

In your place my first question to my Synchro liaison would have been, why choose to only field 12 when they have the option of going with a larger team and apparently have enough qualified skaters to do so? (Assuming that it isn't an age-limited Novice team, of course.) If they are striving for a nationals berth, is it a financial issue? That is a pretty common reason; fewer skaters mean fewer buses or plane tickets and fewer hotel rooms. (Team Russia Paradise caused a stir at Worlds in 2017 (and a rule change this year) because they competed (and won) with only 15 senior skaters; they left the alternates at home and only applied for 16 visas because of travel costs. One of their skaters ended up being denied a US visa, and there wasn't time to apply for an alternate at the last minute, so they were short. The new rule will cause that situation to mean an automatic forfeit unless an injury happens in the midst of the competition itself.) If cost was the program's only reason for lowering the number of skaters, it is possible that a club vote might make a larger budget available, assuming the coach is open to that. (Some coaches feel REALLY strongly that they want multiples of 4 to optimize the possible elements and keep the lines even.)

Two years ago we had a financial quandary with Mids; there just is no easy way to get to Grand Falls, ND from where we are. Normally our teams would fly that far so as not to miss too many school days, but the cost of the tickets was bizarrely high, so we chose to take the teams by bus. It was an adventurous 4-day round-trip drive in late January, and they did get delayed once when they encountered a blizzard en route. DD's team medalled there, and we were hopping like bunnies breaking speed records to get them out of their dresses and onto the bus after the medal ceremony so that they could make it back home in time for school on Monday. (DH & I traveled to watch, because it was DD's first Mids. We were only able to fly as far as Minneapolis and had to drive the rest of the way, which required two extra hotel nights as well. Because of the rush the Team Mgr. corralled every team Mom who was present into helping in the dressing room so that they could get packed up and out.)

If your club doesn't have a Synchro Liaison, I think you should approach the board about appointing one. It is a lot easier on the skaters not to feel like their parents are questioning a coach's decisions directly; the liaison handles those kinds of questions for us and keeps the coaches unaware of which parent questioned what. Best of luck to you and to your club. SKATEGREAT!
 
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What does this mean? [BOLD]

Oh sorry. If a baseball player lives in a district that has a weaker baseball program, parents will rent or purchase property to get the player in the district they want them in. Property and rent is high in those districts and of course they keep their original house too. Some try to just do it by their district releasing them and paying tuition for the out of district school but it’s hard to do that for baseball.
 
Oh sorry. If a baseball player lives in a district that has a weaker baseball program, parents will rent or purchase property to get the player in the district they want them in. Property and rent is high in those districts and of course they keep their original house too. Some try to just do it by their district releasing them and paying tuition for the out of district school but it’s hard to do that for baseball.

Got ya. That gets very sticky here. DS has been involved in a few appeals. Usually lose. Renting does not count here, you have to purchase a home to do it. And they had a kid that lived in the district but went to private school, pulled him out to go to his public school. Nope, no go. They sit out a year. And if a coach gets caught talking to a kid and they move .................. not good.
 
Got ya. That gets very sticky here. DS has been involved in a few appeals. Usually lose. Renting does not count here, you have to purchase a home to do it. And they had a kid that lived in the district but went to private school, pulled him out to go to his public school. Nope, no go. They sit out a year. And if a coach gets caught talking to a kid and they move .................. not good.
Our state is the same way. They are very strict about limiting recruiting. If you move into the state, you sit out the season following the move. If you change districts within the state, you sit out the season following the move. If you try to switch districts during a current season, you lose the current season and the next, basically two years. You can appeal an out-of-state move if you can prove it was 100% for a parent's job, but you would still have to sit out the current season and it is extremely difficult to win the appeal. Most likely, the student will need to sit it out for the full time which could be devastating for an athlete looking for a scholarship in the few sports that are not club sports like football.
 
Got ya. That gets very sticky here. DS has been involved in a few appeals. Usually lose. Renting does not count here, you have to purchase a home to do it. And they had a kid that lived in the district but went to private school, pulled him out to go to his public school. Nope, no go. They sit out a year. And if a coach gets caught talking to a kid and they move .................. not good.

We had one school that had the rule that they have to sit out a year and even they got rid of it. Not too good school, fantastic baseball program. We wouldn’t even consider it but others did. Even when they had the rule, the baseball coach had enough clout to get it waived.

The thing is, the coaches don’t have to recruit. Everyone knows the best programs and they just go to them.
 
In your place my first question to my Synchro liaison would have been, why choose to only field 12 when they have the option of going with a larger team and apparently have enough qualified skaters to do so? (Assuming that it isn't an age-limited Novice team, of course.) If they are striving for a nationals berth, is it a financial issue? That is a pretty common reason; fewer skaters mean fewer buses or plane tickets and fewer hotel rooms. (Team Russia Paradise caused a stir at Worlds in 2017 (and a rule change this year) because they competed (and won) with only 15 senior skaters; they left the alternates at home and only applied for 16 visas because of travel costs. One of their skaters ended up being denied a US visa, and there wasn't time to apply for an alternate at the last minute, so they were short. The new rule will cause that situation to mean an automatic forfeit unless an injury happens in the midst of the competition itself.) If cost was the program's only reason for lowering the number of skaters, it is possible that a club vote might make a larger budget available, assuming the coach is open to that. (Some coaches feel REALLY strongly that they want multiples of 4 to optimize the possible elements and keep the lines even.)

Two years ago we had a financial quandary with Mids; there just is no easy way to get to Grand Falls, ND from where we are. Normally our teams would fly that far so as not to miss too many school days, but the cost of the tickets was bizarrely high, so we chose to take the teams by bus. It was an adventurous 4-day round-trip drive in late January, and they did get delayed once when they encountered a blizzard en route. DD's team medalled there, and we were hopping like bunnies breaking speed records to get them out of their dresses and onto the bus after the medal ceremony so that they could make it back home in time for school on Monday. (DH & I traveled to watch, because it was DD's first Mids. We were only able to fly as far as Minneapolis and had to drive the rest of the way, which required two extra hotel nights as well. Because of the rush the Team Mgr. corralled every team Mom who was present into helping in the dressing room so that they could get packed up and out.)

If your club doesn't have a Synchro Liaison, I think you should approach the board about appointing one. It is a lot easier on the skaters not to feel like their parents are questioning a coach's decisions directly; the liaison handles those kinds of questions for us and keeps the coaches unaware of which parent questioned what. Best of luck to you and to your club. SKATEGREAT!

I tried to message you privately as I imagine most people will not care about my questions but I could not figure out how to do it. What is a Synchro Liaison? Who is normally chosen? Is this person from USFS?

We also questioned the strategy of having only 12 members on the team. It seems to me that the teams with fewer members don't do as well. Cost isn't an issue, we pay our own travel. As a matter of fact it would have been more cost effective to have more people sharing the cost of ice time and coach's fees. When the new director of figure skating was on the team we always had three teams that traveled to competitions but after she left we cut back to two. We then had a team for beginners and another youth team that went to one or two competitions. These teams were not part of USFS. I don't know if they will have to readjust as there were three people who quite the senior youth team who had previously been on the teen team. The other skater was going to be a freshman or sophomore. She would still have had time to improve and get try again next year.


I had really enjoyed watching the sport. I know I am being overly dramatic which is something I try not to do, but the sport has been ruined for me. Maybe that will change with time. All it would have taken was some advance notice that my child was not performing up to par. If I am employed at a company and my quality of work is not up to par most (not all) places employment give you an opportunity to improve. This doesn't include things that cross the line such as harassment, being racist, breaking the law, etc. One thing I never had to worry about was my child drinking as it would have meant immediate dismissal. They have terminated team players before for behavior off the ice that was not up to standards and she would have never risked it.

Thanks for your insight. I really appreciate the venue to vent. I don't want to come across as an insane person with people I actually have to see face to face. :P


ohana.jpg
 
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Our state is the same way. They are very strict about limiting recruiting. If you move into the state, you sit out the season following the move. If you change districts within the state, you sit out the season following the move. If you try to switch districts during a current season, you lose the current season and the next, basically two years. You can appeal an out-of-state move if you can prove it was 100% for a parent's job, but you would still have to sit out the current season and it is extremely difficult to win the appeal. Most likely, the student will need to sit it out for the full time which could be devastating for an athlete looking for a scholarship in the few sports that are not club sports like football.
Unless you live near a state border, IMO, your state laws are too draconian. IMO, if you can prove residency (utility bill, etc) in the district, you should be allowed to attend that school (and play sports there). Now, maybe if you moved from a neighboring district, sit out a year, but if you moved for more than 1-2 hours away, there should be no limitations.
 
All it would have taken was some advance notice that my child was not performing up to par.
Wasn't this a new coach? Was there even an opportunity to learn the child wasn't performing? And again, keep in mind, the decision may have been made based on more than skill (attitude, respect, coachability, etc).
 
NotUrsula - is the mif and freestyle testing for synchro the same as invididual figure skating or are they sychro specific? Do most skaters keep up with individual testing as well as syncho? Does synchro have college students, high school students, and younger all together. I know Theater on Ice separates by under/over 18.

Nancy O
Sorry if my terminology is off. I find USFS rules and terminology confusing.)
I only know some USFS rules and they can be confusing however I'm lost with ISI. Then once I know stuff requirements change etc even on the learn to skate level. Fortunately my kids skate more for fun/fitness though my oldest is more serious now and will be doing intercollegiate skating in the fall which I think is still USFS skating.
 
Wow have I ever started a conversation! :flower1: I still haven't been able to go through all the responses. Sometimes people need tough love but I do feel like my child has been betrayed by her family. This has been something she has been committed to for a long time. She is actually handling it way better than me. I get where everyone is coming from but the way the communication both before and after the results has been appalling. Sometimes people just want to be heard. And yes I know some of this is on my child.

Agree!

BINGO. YOU'RE THE WINNER. I loved how most of the posts assumed my child was a boy. You all are sexist. LOL (Please insert joking tone in my typing) I worked really hard not to give away the sport but I must have slipped up at some point. We have only been doing USFS for 2 years. We had been doing ISI competitions until then. We did one open level competition the first year and 2 of the other advanced levels (I don't even recall the name) last year. Last year we had an issue where one of the skater's (a senior) didn't pass the the qualifying level (I think it was juvenile) but there really isn't much that could be done since the judging is fairly objective and the judges are people we don't really know. She was still able to compete in the ISI competitions. Yes my child has passed every test required to skate at the level the team is skating otherwise this would be a no brainer. (Sorry if my terminology is off. I find USFS rules and terminology confusing.)
I have no clue why you tried to hide the gender of your child or the sport. As you can see, you get better, more focused advise like that from @NotUrsula and @clori once we have all the pertinent details.
 

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