new DVC rules Riviera

[KAT4DISNEY]

You're right, raising studios and lowering 1 bedrooms wouldn't help address 2 bedroom lockoff availability issues (looking at VGF in particular). Not disagreeing with what you're saying at all; I just doubt this reallocation is really to the benefit of most DVC members. Whether it's a benefit to DVCMC as a whole remains to be seen, they could be correct for all we know. And I know, 'most DVC members' and 'DVCMC as a whole' aren't particularly the same thing especially in this case. Holding a few 2 bedrooms as "virtual dedicated 2 bedrooms" would be an easier fix IMO; whether that's an option I have no idea. I guess I just don't buy the premise that people were having such issues getting 2 bedrooms that it warrants this 2020 reallocation, but appreciate the extra information.



Yep, that works for me. This reallocation isn't permanent; we still see significant value in our contracts and perhaps things will swing the other way in 5-10-15 years.

It doesn't appear the current system is set up to allow holding the villas back as full villas, they did that at one point in the past before the current computer system. They have the data, we really have only a small fraction of what they have. Clearly 2 BR are more in demand than 1 BR but we don't know how much. It doesn't matter if the 2 BR alone justify a change, if they're making changes they want to make it as perfect as possible going forward so they don't have to do it very often. It's a lot of work and cost to do the reallocation.

DVC has said the 1BR demand is higher than the 2BR demand. That is why they increased the point requirements for the 1BR's (and studios) and lowered point requirements for 2BR's. They did not state that 2BR demand is higher. That is what those of us who following the online booking believe we see as a pattern - not DVC. So, DVC would not want to hold even more 2BR's back because those are the lowest demand - per them.

 

[Dean]

DVC has said the 1BR demand is higher than the 2BR demand. That is why they increased the point requirements for the 1BR's (and studios) and lowered point requirements for 2BR's. They did not state that 2BR demand is higher. That is what those of us who following the online booking believe we see as a pattern - not DVC. So, DVC would not want to hold even more 2BR's back because those are the lowest demand - per them.

There is a second hand report to that effect but clearly that's not accurate for whatever reason.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

There is a second hand report to that effect but clearly that's not accurate for whatever reason.

Which? That DVC believes 1BR's have a higher demand than 2BR's?

 

[Dean]

Which? That DVC believes 1BR's have a higher demand than 2BR's?

Correct, I don't believe that's what they think and I don't put much stock in one second hand report saying so.

 

[Bing Showei]

Correct, I don't believe that's what they think and I don't put much stock in one second hand report saying so.

Is that because you believe the reallocation is not in fact addressing demand but modifying behavior? Pushing people towards 2BRs?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Correct, I don't believe that's what they think and I don't put much stock in one second hand report saying so.

Considering that report came following a phone call discussing the subject and that it was related that DVC said that is why the lock off premium had to increase the points it doesn't seem like either a false report nor a misunderstanding. And on the surface it's what the point chart reallocations "say". They've increased studios and 1BR's and decreased 2BR's albeit mostly in 1 season.

If I've understood correctly you believe that increasing both studios and 1BR's will drive people to book 2BR's but I feel that intuitively it will result in even less demand of 1BR's. Increasing studio's in relationship to 2BR's has a good possibility of encouraging those who book multiple studios to book 2BR's - it will not encourage those who book 1 studio room to suddenly book a 2BR and not decreasing the point premium between a studio and 1BR is not going to suddenly send studio bookings to 1BR's when they were not already doing that. Nor, if 2BR's are second in demand would it make sense to shift only from the most in demand to the 2nd most in demand. It does nothing for 1BR demand unless DVC believes it is higher than 2BR's and they need to decrease demand of 1BR's. A point chart attempting to driving those who book 1BR's to 2BR's which is possible because it already was a closer point requirement again leaves more 1BR's so shifting from the least in demand to the 2nd most in demand (2BR) - which makes no sense to do. Again, it does make sense if DVC believes 1BR's are in higher demand than 2BR's but if they do not as you believe they misspoke then the demand will be going from a lower demand category (1BR's) to a higher demand category (2BR's). The reallocations make sense in the way they are done if DVC is somehow of the believe 1BR's are in higher demand. At a couple of resorts they are IMO. At most they are not IMO.

 

[Ben E N]

Correct, I don't believe that's what they think and I don't put much stock in one second hand report saying so.

This doesn't add much weight to the discussion, but that is the same justification that my guide told me they were using for raising the 1 BR rates. He may have been misinformed, but that's the message that he passed onto me.

 

[zavandor]

That 1BR are in higher demand than 2BR has been told to me by the same person who tried to sell me the next week that the increase in studios and 1BR went to decrease the 2BR and wasn't really aware what the lockoff premium is. So, while it's 100% true that a DVC manager told it as the justification for the reallocation, I would not count on it being true.

 

[Dean]

Is that because you believe the reallocation is not in fact addressing demand but modifying behavior? Pushing people towards 2BRs?

I suspect it's both in a sense. That it's addressing demand AND anticipating behavior with the changes. I doubt they are simply trying to control behavior beyond those issues though.

Considering that report came following a phone call discussing the subject and that it was related that DVC said that is why the lock off premium had to increase the points it doesn't seem like either a false report nor a misunderstanding. And on the surface it's what the point chart reallocations "say". They've increased studios and 1BR's and decreased 2BR's albeit mostly in 1 season.

If I've understood correctly you believe that increasing both studios and 1BR's will drive people to book 2BR's but I feel that intuitively it will result in even less demand of 1BR's. Increasing studio's in relationship to 2BR's has a good possibility of encouraging those who book multiple studios to book 2BR's - it will not encourage those who book 1 studio room to suddenly book a 2BR and not decreasing the point premium between a studio and 1BR is not going to suddenly send studio bookings to 1BR's when they were not already doing that. Nor, if 2BR's are second in demand would it make sense to shift only from the most in demand to the 2nd most in demand. It does nothing for 1BR demand unless DVC believes it is higher than 2BR's and they need to decrease demand of 1BR's. A point chart attempting to driving those who book 1BR's to 2BR's which is possible because it already was a closer point requirement again leaves more 1BR's so shifting from the least in demand to the 2nd most in demand (2BR) - which makes no sense to do. Again, it does make sense if DVC believes 1BR's are in higher demand than 2BR's but if they do not as you believe they misspoke then the demand will be going from a lower demand category (1BR's) to a higher demand category (2BR's). The reallocations make sense in the way they are done if DVC is somehow of the believe 1BR's are in higher demand. At a couple of resorts they are IMO. At most they are not IMO.

I do believe the % of 2 BR booked will likely increase, I don't know how much and it really won't take much change to even out this issues. Remember it's not all or none as no all lockoff's would have been as separate components before. I also suspect it'll take a few years as people adjust so it won't happen instantaneously. But I've already made 2 applicable points. Those are that they have the data and we DON'T and that availability of a single villa is only a tiny fraction of the overall picture of demand. Of course it will decrease the demand for 1 BR in all likelihood if it increases the demand for 2 BR. But that goes back to the point I made that bookings/availability and demand are not exactly the same thing. It's like when they do the audit for BVTC and II/RCI over the years, they don't track what you wanted, only what you took and the % of people that wanted something that got anything.

 

[AdamsMum]

In other words, DVD has already instructed its personnel on the spin to give about restricting resale purchasers by asserting that somehow this is being done because the mass of members want it. Incredible.

I'm still puzzled about this restriction on resale points on a new resort. I get them putting the resale restriction on the legacy resorts, but wouldn't you think a selling point would have been telling new buyers that resale buyers of the legacy resorts couldn't trade into their resort and just have left it at that? Then to add that resale buyers of Riviera can only stay at Riviera seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

Unless of course as some have said, they are creating a new Disney Vacation Club for these resorts going forward. I wonder if they will open up resale buyers at Riviera to booking future new resorts.

I can't say that I was ever interested in Riviera, the gondolas sound intriguing but not enough to make me buy there. As a BWV/BC owner I love the location of those resorts. Getting to and from EPCOT and DHS quickly isn't really what I'm looking for on vacation. I'm one of probably a few owners who like the friendship boats. Of course I've been there many times and no longer feel the need to rush about and do as much as possible every day. I guess I'm getting old.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I suspect it's both in a sense. That it's addressing demand AND anticipating behavior with the changes. I doubt they are simply trying to control behavior beyond those issues though.

I do believe the % of 2 BR booked will likely increase, I don't know how much and it really won't take much change to even out this issues. Remember it's not all or none as no all lockoff's would have been as separate components before. I also suspect it'll take a few years as people adjust so it won't happen instantaneously. But I've already made 2 applicable points. Those are that they have the data and we DON'T and that availability of a single villa is only a tiny fraction of the overall picture of demand. Of course it will decrease the demand for 1 BR in all likelihood if it increases the demand for 2 BR. But that goes back to the point I made that bookings/availability and demand are not exactly the same thing. It's like when they do the audit for BVTC and II/RCI over the years, they don't track what you wanted, only what you took and the % of people that wanted something that got anything.

Probability just doesn't seem to follow consistently seeing a trend of 1BR's remaining long after 2BR's are booked and concluding that there is a higher demand for 1BR's. And the other part is that the resorts do not all have the same number of rooms. A higher demand of 1BR's (which I do not believe exists) may be perfectly fine if there are more 1BR's vs 2BR's or other factors.

 

[chainkid]

My biggest concern as an owner at BWV is that the dumping of thousands of people into the international gateway. I fear it will ruin our wonderful experience of having no wait to get into Epcot or activate our annual passes at the customer service booth. I know we have been spoiled but it was one of the perks of staying at an Epcot resort. I'm sure DVC owners at BLT would cry fowl if they were denied the walkway between Magic kingdom and their resort. it was a big selling point. I don't see how the gondola dump of people at the rate they said it moves would do anything but create a huge log jam in a small entrance point. Waiting to see how this works it's way out as I'm sure Disney has thought of this.

 

[AnnaKat]

I'm not sure if that will be the consensus. Geographically it's very close to Epcot and DHS. Fireworks view and Skyliner to both parks. Objectively, I don't see how the location of AKV, OKW, SSR or VWL is superior. None have more convenient transportation to 2 parks nor more central location.



300 rooms...about the same size as Bay Lake Tower. BWV, OKW, SSR, Poly, AKV and WL all have more DVC villas.



Reflections is a 2022 opening.

What Is Reflections?!?!

 

[Ben E N]

What Is Reflections?!?!

River Country turning into a giant DVC/Hotel, slated to open in 2022 or so.

 

[tjkraz]

My biggest concern as an owner at BWV is that the dumping of thousands of people into the international gateway. I fear it will ruin our wonderful experience of having no wait to get into Epcot or activate our annual passes at the customer service booth. I know we have been spoiled but it was one of the perks of staying at an Epcot resort. I'm sure DVC owners at BLT would cry fowl if they were denied the walkway between Magic kingdom and their resort. it was a big selling point. I don't see how the gondola dump of people at the rate they said it moves would do anything but create a huge log jam in a small entrance point. Waiting to see how this works it's way out as I'm sure Disney has thought of this.

Taking into account the number of rooms and max occupancy at Riviera, Caribbean Beach, AoA and Pop Century, it will a little more than double traffic when compared to the current resorts using that same entry point (BC, YC, BW, Swan, Dolphin.) Since current foot traffic at the International Gateway is rather modest, I doubt the impact will be earth shattering. It will also be a slow, steady flow of guests rather than the literal hundreds that arrive simultaneously at other theme park entrances via bus, boat, parking tram and monorail.

There are bound to be long lines for the Skyliner at park closing, but that doesn't really impact Epcot area resort guests walking back to their hotel.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I don’t know. The boardwalk is packed at night. I can’t even imagine it with the added traffic from the gondolas

 

[vacationer1954]

I don’t know. The boardwalk is packed at night. I can’t even imagine it with the added traffic from the gondolas

Everything is relative. Even though we stay at the BoardWalk once every other trip, we've never felt that the BoardWalk is as over-crowded as much as, say, the Magic Kingdom is over-crowded. Anything that isn't as crowded as the most crowded thing may be viewed as under-performing.

 

[CarolMN]

My biggest concern as an owner at BWV is that the dumping of thousands of people into the international gateway. I fear it will ruin our wonderful experience of having no wait to get into Epcot or activate our annual passes at the customer service booth. I know we have been spoiled but it was one of the perks of staying at an Epcot resort. I'm sure DVC owners at BLT would cry fowl if they were denied the walkway between Magic kingdom and their resort. it was a big selling point. I don't see how the gondola dump of people at the rate they said it moves would do anything but create a huge log jam in a small entrance point. Waiting to see how this works it's way out as I'm sure Disney has thought of this.

Taking into account the number of rooms and max occupancy at Riviera, Caribbean Beach, AoA and Pop Century, it will a little more than double traffic when compared to the current resorts using that same entry point (BC, YC, BW, Swan, Dolphin.) Since current foot traffic at the International Gateway is rather modest, I doubt the impact will be earth shattering. It will also be a slow, steady flow of guests rather than the literal hundreds that arrive simultaneously at other theme park entrances via bus, boat, parking tram and monorail.

There are bound to be long lines for the Skyliner at park closing, but that doesn't really impact Epcot area resort guests walking back to their hotel.

I don't think it will be a major impact, either. Not everyone goes to EPCOT every day and not everyone wants to be there for rope drop.

Do we even know for sure how security will be handled at the IG once the gondolas are in service? I don't think we should assume that the current entrance procedures & set up will remain the same.

Perhaps the security checks will happen at the resorts (similar to the way it is currently done for the MK resorts), and the gondola guests will disembark directly to entrance turnstiles. Don't think it would be hard to add one or two additional turnstiles. FWIW, many of the times we use the IG, they don't even have all the existing turnstiles open.

 

[vacationer1954]

Perhaps the security checks will happen at the resorts...

There are numerous possible solutions regarding security checks on those walking in from the resorts. The open question is how the security checks will be done for those coming off the Friendship boats. Some are convinced that they will always go all the way to IG (I'm not), so, if those people are correct, unless the security checks you're talking about are also done at the time you board Friendship boats, security checks for those coming off the Friendship boats is the biggest sticking point at the IG.

 

[Ben E N]

There are numerous possible solutions regarding security checks on those walking in from the resorts. The open question is how the security checks will be done for those coming off the Friendship boats. Some are convinced that they will always go all the way to IG (I'm not), so, if those people are correct, unless the security checks you're talking about are also done at the time you board Friendship boats, security checks for those coming off the Friendship boats is the biggest sticking point at the IG.

I bet they do happen at the resorts, even if people only friendship boat or gondola to another resort for breakfast. The same happens with the monorail at MK, and it greatly reduces the bottleneck at the front gates there.
This could actually benefit people who stay on the boardwalk, as they will get their own personal security check, similar to the one at BLT and the Contemporary.
One added benefit of all of this is it reduces the chokehold that is the security check at the front gates of Epcot. If three resorts that formerly used it are now using the back gates, that will have to have a noticable impact on the lines in the front.