Problematic behavior in a lounge

[Smugpugmug]

I really do hate the term Karen. I keep hoping it will fade away but no such luck. They have the "Kevin" term for men, but no one ever uses it. They just call men *******s or douches, which in all honesty I would rather be called. Karen is associated with such abhorrent behavior, but is thrown in women's faces even when they legitimately have a right to speak up for themselves, which is so unfair.

Someone who is speaking up for themselves technically doesn't fit the definition of a Karen. The actual definition of a Karen, according to Wikipedia, states that it refers to "a middle-class white woman who is perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal." It's the modern day term for a "Becky".

 

[sk!mom]

it is a lounge or basically a bar, they were having a conversation. No they were not private in the sense it was their hotel room, but yes two people seated together talking is a "private" conversation as it is between them. The poster made the distinction already between two men having a conversation (implies normal speaking loudness) as later they remarked that they yelled at her after she interrupted them. You don't like a situation or are uncomfortable... then leave. Control yourself, not others.

Do you walk up to people you don't know in a bar who are seated together talking and interrupt them to tell them you don't like their conversation?

“Control yourself, not others.”

It’s a crazy world. I absolutely would not have confronted other adults because their behavior bothered me. If it was truly making me uncomfortable, I’d have left.

 

[Lord Manhammer]

beyond the scope of what is normal.

I don't know about you, but in 2023, accosting someone for being in a bar and talking about genitalia is beyond the scope of normal. Maybe they were adult film directors discussing the plot of their next movie? I mean, from what you describe and from what is available online, that is an altogether plausible scenario.

 

[Living42Day]

Oops, you're right. I mishighlighted one phrase. Can you quote where the other comments have come from?

I think you quoted the wrong person, but this is just from what I read. Not exact phrasing that they used, but seems pretty similar to what that poster was trying to get at it seems.

....act like a Karen...Interrupting someone is extremely rude.

Karen much?....

...But you chose a confrontation...Sorry, but that's on you.

...the OP should not be clutching pearls that the guys in question yelled at her to go away.

Why not just ignore it?....

...You're asking to get punched or possibly have a gun drawn...

 

[SirDuff]

I don't know about you, but in 2023, accosting someone for being in a bar and talking about genitalia is beyond the scope of normal. Maybe they were adult film directors discussing the plot of their next movie? I mean, from what you describe and from what is available online, that is an altogether plausible scenario.

Totally off-topic, but reminds of having a conversation at lunch with a colleague and using the phrase "Yes, it was retarded". Another person overheard (we weren't yelling, and I didn't think we were talking loudly, but acknowledge that I'm hearing impaired and don't always realise if I'm talking loudly) and started lecturing me about the word and how awful it was that I was using.

If she had eavesdropped slightly better, she would have realised that we were talking about a lab experiment (we were in a hospital) and I was letting my colleague know that, yes, the test drug had retarded the bacteria's growth.

Not saying that the OP took the conversation out-of-context, but Lord's comment just brought back the memory.

 

[focusondisney]

As a woman, I really liked what Wendy31 had to say and I didn't even care for the Barbie movie. By you shutting her (I assume) down it is just giving another example of both men and women deciding what someone (especially women) can be offended or bothered by. "Why don't you be more quiet?" "Don't tell those men what to do!" "You should have just sat their and ignored it." "What a Karen!" "Well why did you say anything, you deserved to be cursed out!" All of that is very reminiscent of "Why did you make me do that?" "I hate when I have to slap you". It's honestly gross.

I disagree. It wouldn’t matter to me if it was men or women acting that way. And using common sense & not confronting a quite possibly irrational stranger is nothing like being in an abusive relationship. No one has a right to abuse/ assault another person. Disagreeing with the language or topic of strangers in a public place is your right. It’s not your right to censor them. If you want to confront them, that’s your right too. But don’t complain when they exercise their right to respond, however they want. I am a woman too & smart enough to know the actions of strangers can be very unpredictable. Me taking that into consideration & choosing to not interact with what appears to be unstable individuals does not equate to me being an oppressed victim.

 

[JLTraveling]

Someone who is speaking up for themselves technically doesn't fit the definition of a Karen. The actual definition of a Karen, according to Wikipedia, states that it refers to "a middle-class white woman who is perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal." It's the modern day term for a "Becky".

Well, I have no idea of the OP's wealth class or racial background. But expecting others to end their conversation in a public lounge because she didn't like it was the very definition of "entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal." Or are you seriously suggesting that expecting others to kowtow to your opinion of appropriate conversational topics is within the bounds of normal expectations?

Let's go with that. And take it to something that until quite recently was highly controversial: Breastfeeding in public. What if instead of two men discussing sex, it was a woman feeding her baby without a cover? That's an actual exposed breast! Now, before anyone misconstrues me or twists my words: I am IN FAVOR of breastfeeding wherever and whenever. But what if the OP was not so enlightened? Would you support her demanding that the mother put that disgusting boob away? Or would you think she was out of line? What if it was a man asking her to cover up? Would that be OK?

Why is this any different?

 

[Smugpugmug]

Well, I have no idea of the OP's wealth class or racial background. But expecting others to end their conversation in a public lounge because she didn't like it was the very definition of "entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal." Or are you seriously suggesting that expecting others to kowtow to your opinion of appropriate conversational topics is within the bounds of normal expectations?

Let's go with that. And take it to something that until quite recently was highly controversial: Breastfeeding in public. What if instead of two men discussing sex, it was a woman feeding her baby without a cover? That's an actual exposed breast! Now, before anyone misconstrues me or twists my words: I am IN FAVOR of breastfeeding wherever and whenever. But what if the OP was not so enlightened? Would you support her demanding that the mother put that disgusting boob away? Or would you think she was out of line? What if it was a man asking her to cover up? Would that be OK?

Why is this any different?

Huh? I just posted the definition of a "Karen" which was from Wikipedia.

I didn't say or imply anything that you posted. I didn't even call the OP a Karen a single time on this thread.

 

[Lord Manhammer]

Huh? I just posted the definition of a "Karen" which was from Wikipedia.

I didn't say or imply anything that you posted. I didn't even call the OP a Karen a single time on this thread.

That was me. I called Karen.

 

[pindecisive]

I'm going to go ahead and mark this thread for a mod to close but I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond and I'm glad it was an interesting debate.

 

[Lord Manhammer]

That was fun. But good idea. Good sparring folks.

 

[fly girl]

Someone who is speaking up for themselves technically doesn't fit the definition of a Karen. The actual definition of a Karen, according to Wikipedia, states that it refers to "a middle-class white woman who is perceived as entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal." It's the modern day term for a "Becky".

I know, that is the problem! Karen is just now thrown around loosely whether or not they are technically being one. That's the part I hate. It isn't fair!!

Case in point: we were at a hotel in Indianapolis last month to watch Steelers/Colts game. The hotel we were in was super crowded not only with NFL fans, there was a huge dance competition at the convention center adjacent to Lucas Oil Stadium. Well, the elevators in our hotel were just slower than molasses. There was a long line to get on one. A group of late 20's early 30's men and women tried to weasel their way through the line and cut. The woman a few groups in front of us called them out (it wasn't a nasty confrontation, just a hey come on now tone) for cutting as she had been waiting a long time. Yep, you guessed it, they called her a Karen. She wasn't being the "Wikipedia definition", she was speaking up as she had been patiently waiting and they took her spot on the elevator.

 

[fly girl]

According to Taylor Swift, they’re Brads & Chads.

Have you ever heard someone actually using it? I haven't.

 

[Wendy31]

Have you ever heard someone actually using it? I haven't.

Only in conversations like this in reference to a particular type of guys - never directly to a guy though.

I’ve seen it/heard it referenced in reels.

A few weeks ago, our family was actually talking about Karens, &, when I asked what the equivalent was for guys, my Gen Z daughter said “Chad” & how, now, just like you’d never name a baby girl Karen, you’d also never name a baby boy Chad.

 

[Lord Manhammer]

Chad is a country not a boys name.

 

[mousefan73]

thread still open and coming to the convo late but here are my thoughts.
1. when I first read OP post I was trying to put the scenario in my head. At first, I had assumed that these two men were kind of having an aggressive type of argument with language that was threatening which made OP uncomfortable, which I would totally get.
2. Then I read that OP was simply offended by the language which I had assumed was just maybe using the F word which some people are sensitive about my opinion I just rolled my eyes and thought OK get over it. You might not like it but people have the right to say what they want.
3. I read an update describing what was being said and I think there’s a difference. Example is a few years ago. My mom and I were taking a train and there was a group of young women ironically who were very crude. They were playing loud music drinking, and their conversation was just simply hard to listen. ( white trash drunk women, very "primitive" as my mom said )to sometimes it’s not the language, but the context I would love to have these girls thrown out of the train, and everyone else was just dumbfounded on what was coming out of their mouths . It wasn’t specific words foul language, it was the context and what was being said. I have seen and heard it all and I was dumbfounded.

I’m putting myself in OP's position, and if these men are talking about what I’m putting in my head, what could be possible be ( disgusting stuff) and yelling this really loud it’s basically like putting porn hub on a Beamer in the lounge maybe showing the worst of the worst. Yes there’s free speech and peoples private conversations, but in a way, if somethings being broadcasted with words with that context, what’s the difference than showing? I never would approach people speaking using foul language, but I’m trying to play devils advocate here and if these two men were loudly discussing gross disgusting things using foul language for all to hear I probably would’ve said something myself. They response being so violent verbally just proves a little bit how bad their conversation was. I work for an airline and I’m trying to think of anything were to happen in one of our lounges like this. We definitely would want to hear from customers complaining because this is a type of environment we don’t want to sell to our customers.

 

[sam_gordon]

I think you quoted the wrong person, but this is just from what I read. Not exact phrasing that they used, but seems pretty similar to what that poster was trying to get at it seems.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[ronandannette]

thread still open and coming to the convo late but here are my thoughts.
1. when I first read OP post I was trying to put the scenario in my head. At first, I had assumed that these two men were kind of having an aggressive type of argument with language that was threatening which made OP uncomfortable, which I would totally get.
2. Then I read that OP was simply offended by the language which I had assumed was just maybe using the F word which some people are sensitive about my opinion I just rolled my eyes and thought OK get over it. You might not like it but people have the right to say what they want.
3. I read an update describing what was being said and I think there’s a difference. Example is a few years ago. My mom and I were taking a train and there was a group of young women ironically who were very crude. They were playing loud music drinking, and their conversation was just simply hard to listen. ( white trash drunk women, very "primitive" as my mom said )to sometimes it’s not the language, but the context I would love to have these girls thrown out of the train, and everyone else was just dumbfounded on what was coming out of their mouths . It wasn’t specific words foul language, it was the context and what was being said. I have seen and heard it all and I was dumbfounded.

I’m putting myself in OP's position, and if these men are talking about what I’m putting in my head, what could be possible be ( disgusting stuff) and yelling this really loud it’s basically like putting porn hub on a Beamer in the lounge maybe showing the worst of the worst. Yes there’s free speech and peoples private conversations, but in a way, if somethings being broadcasted with words with that context, what’s the difference than showing? I never would approach people speaking using foul language, but I’m trying to play devils advocate here and if these two men were loudly discussing gross disgusting things using foul language for all to hear I probably would’ve said something myself. They response being so violent verbally just proves a little bit how bad their conversation was. I work for an airline and I’m trying to think of anything were to happen in one of our lounges like this. We definitely would want to hear from customers complaining because this is a type of environment we don’t want to sell to our customers.

I completely agree with your first two points. As with many threads, the details that emerged further in described quite a different scenario than what most of us assumed from the opening post. I stand by what I said initially, when I thought we were talking about garden-variety profanity-laced conversation, which I consider to be unnecessary and extremely uncivil.

As it turns out, it was really more similar to your point #3, and I too would have been flabbergasted and disturbed enough to move away and complain to whomever was overseeing the facility. I don’t think I would have confronted them though, unless they both appeared to be complete wimpy, gormless goofs, because they are clearly miscreants, and possibly capable of who-knows-what.

 

[Lord Manhammer]

7 pages and this thread just won't die. I gotta doff my cap to the OP, you had us really talking!

 

[tzolkin]

It's really strange to me the amount of people who read that an older man shouted at a young woman who simply quietly said, "You're making me uncomfortable" and told her she was the problem for not just leaving.

My point still stands. You did not give all of the information in the original post. Perhaps that's why you're shocked at the responses. You never mentioned at all that you were a "young woman" (you could be 80 or you could be a man for all we knew from the first post) or the content of what the men were discussing (you didn't add that until we were already 60 posts into the discussion). If you were looking for people to be shocked or outraged on your behalf, you needed to give a bit more detail.

All you said in the original post was that they were swearing and they thought they were alone in the lounge (which you mentioned twice). So, that's what the majority of the early responses were based on. Two guys in an empty bar chatting loudly with some swearing-- to most people that is 100% completely normal behavior and not an occasion to confront strangers.

Context is important. In a movie theater or a waiting room where they knew they were being deliberately disruptive by swearing and talking loudly and didn't care, I would say you would be justified in calling them out. But, at least to me, swearing and talking at a louder volume is acceptable/normal behavior in a bar, so I would never dream of telling someone to not swear or talk quieter just because I personally didn't like it.