Riviera resale restrictions lifting: possible

[ELMC]

Can't speak for kboo directly, but for a few years, resale contracts did not get member benefits, but the minimum direct requirement was just 25 points. They went from - everyone gets benefits, resale or direct, to minimum 25 direct, to 75 direct, to where they are today, 100 direct. From around 2014 to 2018, you needed 25 direct to get member benefits. And the minimum purchase for current owners was 25 points. So there are alot of 25 point direct member benefit owners out there. Present company included.

Thanks. I think you took me a little too literally, sorry about that. The point I was trying to make was that I was grandfathered in so I didn't see the need to buy the 25 points direct. I am now kicking myself for that decision. In hindsight, I would now like to have the flexibility of owning that contract. I could then sell my grandfathered BWV points at today's crazy high prices and keep the 25 point contract in order to house point transfers.

 

[kboo]

Ah - we bought in early 2017 - so the 25 points was for the AP discounts. The resale points (BLT and VGF) were "grandfathered" in the sense that they can be used at RIV and new resorts, but we didn't get discounts on APs. We've bought 7 new APs and renewed 3 APs and the savings on the APs alone has more than made up the dfference in 25 points direct v 25 more points resale, for sure. Back in 2017, the "strategy" was to figure out a total # of points that worked for you, and buy n-25 via resale and then 25 points direct for AP and other discounts. Shortly after we did that, direct prices went way up, and then they raised the minimum to 75 points for the blue card.

 

[kboo]

I could then sell my grandfathered BWV points at today's crazy high prices and keep the 25 point contract in order to house point transfers.

WAIT A SECOND...

"house point transfers..." so if you transferred in (potentially restricted, post 2019 resold) points into a direct/blue card contract/membership, you could potentially use them at all resorts? I had not thought of that ... My mind is kind of blown right now.

 

[Bearval]

WAIT A SECOND...

"house point transfers..." so if you transferred in (potentially restricted, post 2019 resold) points into a direct/blue card contract/membership, you could potentially use them at all resorts? I had not thought of that ... My mind is kind of blown right now.

No,DVC keeps track which points are eligible so you can only use grandfathered or direct points .

 

[Mumof4mice]

WAIT A SECOND...

"house point transfers..." so if you transferred in (potentially restricted, post 2019 resold) points into a direct/blue card contract/membership, you could potentially use them at all resorts? I had not thought of that ... My mind is kind of blown right now.

Unfortunately restrictions/home resort status etc are attached to the points themselves.

Holding a small contract can be really useful. Assuming you transfer in points from the same home resort and UY, you can see the points and book online exactly as if you had a large contract, without the large sunk cost or the inconvenience and uncertainty of renting.

 

[CarolMN]

WAIT A SECOND...

"house point transfers..." so if you transferred in (potentially restricted, post 2019 resold) points into a direct/blue card contract/membership, you could potentially use them at all resorts? I had not thought of that ... My mind is kind of blown right now.

No, LOL. But I interpreted ELMC's post as he would use the BCV contract to accept point transfers that he could then use to book DVC resorts. 25 points wouldn't be enough for his vacation needs.

IOW, he wants to "eat his cake" (capture the gain in value of his BWV points) and "have it,too" (still stay in DVC resorts for less than the cash prices available to the general public).

 

[kboo]

No,DVC keeps track which points are eligible so you can only use grandfathered or direct points .

I was thinking it would be too good to be true. But at the same time, what a headache keeping track of whether transferred points are pre or post 1/19/19.

 

[MickeyMouse3!]

IMO...The RIV will end up being an experiment gone bad. DVD will realize the restrictions on RIV purchases were slowed or even prevented potential buyers from buying. They will add some very exclusive incentives for RIV, to keep buyers interested, but future developments will not have the same restrictions. This will allow Disney to save a little face and still have some flexibility with contracts.

 

[Sandisw]

IMO...The RIV will end up being an experiment gone bad. DVD will realize the restrictions on RIV purchases were slowed or even prevented potential buyers from buying. They will add some very exclusive incentives for RIV, to keep buyers interested, but future developments will not have the same restrictions. This will allow Disney to save a little face and still have some flexibility with contracts.

Which if they decide this is a bad idea, then I think the most they will do is allow new resorts to trade at the new resorts if a resale buyer. I do not see them changing it to all. Of course, I am not in the loop so who knows what they will do,

I agree that if they will increase incentives first to boost sales.

 

[Bearval]

I was thinking it would be too good to be true. But at the same time, what a headache keeping track of whether transferred points are pre or post 1/19/19.

Not really hard . I would suspect they have a computer program that tracks it.

 

[kboo]

Not really hard . I would suspect they have a computer program that tracks it.

There are a lot of assumptions built into that statement.

There have been reports of people with unrestricted points being treated as restricted, and vice versa.

 

[ELMC]

No, LOL. But I interpreted ELMC's post as he would use the BCV contract to accept point transfers that he could then use to book DVC resorts. 25 points wouldn't be enough for his vacation needs.

IOW, he wants to "eat his cake" (capture the gain in value of his BWV points) and "have it,too" (still stay in DVC resorts for less than the cash prices available to the general public).

This, exactly.

And this whole conversation is making me feel worse and worse about not just spending the lousy $4,000 on a 25 point direct contract. Sigh.

 

[skier_pete]

They will not reverse the restrictions. That would be the leadership at Disney admitting a major mistake. That never happens at Disney. If sales remain sluggish after RIV opens they will increase incentives for buyers instead of removing restrictions.

The RIV restrictions are never going to go away, No matter what happens with sales. People need to realize this. That is just how Disney operates.

But you forget (or are maybe not aware of) last December when they posted the new point charts which increased the lock-off premium by raising point costs of both studios and 1-bedrooms at resorts without matching a reduction in 2-bedrooms. It was quite the saga which I won't go into here (there are long, long threads about it). In the end, they ended up reverting the charts with the warning that they might try it again in the future because they said they reversed it because it was "poorly communicated" (yeah right). This isn't quite the same because I personally think they saw they may have a legal issue if they went forward with it, but still proves they will correct mistakes.

If Disney sees that they made a decision that they consider is losing them money - they will reverse it. They will spin it in a way that will indicate it was done "for the benefit of the members".

 

[Brianstl]

But you forget (or are maybe not aware of) last December when they posted the new point charts which increased the lock-off premium by raising point costs of both studios and 1-bedrooms at resorts without matching a reduction in 2-bedrooms. It was quite the saga which I won't go into here (there are long, long threads about it). In the end, they ended up reverting the charts with the warning that they might try it again in the future because they said they reversed it because it was "poorly communicated" (yeah right). This isn't quite the same because I personally think they saw they may have a legal issue if they went forward with it, but still proves they will correct mistakes.

If Disney sees that they made a decision that they consider is losing them money - they will reverse it. They will spin it in a way that will indicate it was done "for the benefit of the members".

It has been my thought that they walked backed the point chart because they realized they would get sued and lose.

 

[Bearval]

But you forget (or are maybe not aware of) last December when they posted the new point charts which increased the lock-off premium by raising point costs of both studios and 1-bedrooms at resorts without matching a reduction in 2-bedrooms. It was quite the saga which I won't go into here (there are long, long threads about it). In the end, they ended up reverting the charts with the warning that they might try it again in the future because they said they reversed it because it was "poorly communicated" (yeah right). This isn't quite the same because I personally think they saw they may have a legal issue if they went forward with it, but still proves they will correct mistakes.

If Disney sees that they made a decision that they consider is losing them money - they will reverse it. They will spin it in a way that will indicate it was done "for the benefit of the members".

I highly doubt that are going to reverse the restrictions, it is not like the resort is not selling.it is just not selling as fast as they have wanted. Disney is in this for the long haul and decided to put into place restrictions that will in their opinion finally impact resale. They will become more like every other timeshare where it is only worth pennies on the dollar except with DVC it will be more like nickels and dimes on the dollar.

 

[sky2823]

I think they will lift the restrictions merely because the restrictions “as is” are a very clumsy way of attaining what Disney wanted. There are other ways they could have gained a greater piece of the pie without upsetting their loyal base and shaking the culture. They may lift restrictions by creating a new less extreme restriction structure that is more palatable to DVC members, but leaves a lot less money on the table than DVC “pre-restrictions”. They probably wont just remove them cold turkey as I once thought.


DVC I vs DVC 2 all seems convoluted to me and as the system continues to grow it will get harder and more expensive to manage. Disney is not in the timeshare company. It’s a the worlds greatest entertainment company that happens to be in a bunch of other businesses that for the most part they are only above average. However, they do amazingly well because their entertainment is otherworldly.

The strategy behind Riviera and the restrictions is example of them being average at something. It is a misstep. It will be amended at some point. My bet is soon, but who knows...

 

[Fred M]

How many hours does this take to charge $100-200. A couple clicks of a mouse and a little typing and done. When you buy resale aren't you already paying DVC a fee to set up, in closing costs?

I always assumed Disney's cost for processing the change was hidden in the "admin fee" for that particular resort and collected each year as part of the maintenance fees.

 

[Fred M]

It has been my thought that they walked backed the point chart because they realized they would get sued and lose.

Exactly. When we bought, we were told umpteen times that our home resort was a closed system with a set number of points. So if the studio points chart went up by 1 million points, then 1 BR and up villas had to go down by a collective 1 million points. It seems like DVC was trying to make the legal argument that they could increase the total pool from say 7 million points to 7.2 million points. Doesn't work that way. Hence the backing off and as @skier_pete put it, basically they are always going to spin the news to make it look like they weren't trying to rip off DVC members.

But with Riviera, I'm not seeing the same thing. They advertised the restrictions in advance. The sales pitch admits they have restrictions. I'm guessing it's in the paperwork and there are signed disclosures that there are restrictions. I'm not sure what legal argument folks would have to make a Riviera direct purchase on par with the DVC 2020 walkback of the points chart issue.

 

[Soap_1984]

Well I don't think the argument is a legal battle from existing owners, rather that sales are slow and perhaps the restrictions are part of the cause. The point was they lift the restrictions to boost sales; the argument was then made they wouldn't do that (which I tend to agree with) and then someone countered they have changed rules in the past. The reasoning for the change with resale restrictions at Riviera would be to increase sales rather than appease existing members.

I see both sides, they are different scenarios but I can see the point. I just think disney is unlikely to lift the restrictions unless sales are beyond terrible. And if they did, they are not doing it to help or appease current Riv owners, I can promise that.

 

[skier_pete]

Well I don't think the argument is a legal battle from existing owners, rather that sales are slow and perhaps the restrictions are part of the cause. The point was they lift the restrictions to boost sales; the argument was then made they wouldn't do that (which I tend to agree with) and then someone countered they have changed rules in the past. The reasoning for the change with resale restrictions at Riviera would be to increase sales rather than appease existing members.

I see both sides, they are different scenarios but I can see the point. I just think disney is unlikely to lift the restrictions unless sales are beyond terrible. And if they did, they are not doing it to help or appease current Riv owners, I can promise that.

Exactly - they would only lift restrictions because they decide it is adversely hurting sales more than it is benefiting them. Some people say "Disney is in it for the long haul."...but I don't believe that at ALL. Publicly traded companies are almost entirely in it for the now, as in the next quarter...and only really aware of the next 3-5 years. To say "Well, when all the old resorts are gone and they all have the resale restrictions, then it won't matter", that's just not something that they are remotely looking at. They want profits to INCREASE. If new resort sales are down 20%, and they believe that this is because of resale restrictions, and that reversing that decision will bring sales back up...they'd change in second. The only thing that stops them is they don't KNOW this. Until they are sure - then they aren't going to turn it around.

Exactly. When we bought, we were told umpteen times that our home resort was a closed system with a set number of points. So if the studio points chart went up by 1 million points, then 1 BR and up villas had to go down by a collective 1 million points. It seems like DVC was trying to make the legal argument that they could increase the total pool from say 7 million points to 7.2 million points. Doesn't work that way. Hence the backing off and as @skier_pete put it, basically they are always going to spin the news to make it look like they weren't trying to rip off DVC members.

But with Riviera, I'm not seeing the same thing. They advertised the restrictions in advance. The sales pitch admits they have restrictions. I'm guessing it's in the paperwork and there are signed disclosures that there are restrictions. I'm not sure what legal argument folks would have to make a Riviera direct purchase on par with the DVC 2020 walkback of the points chart issue.

We'll find out in a few short weeks if they decided the lock-off premium was illegal, because if they don't try it again, we can be pretty sure they decided it was.

And yes, not the same thing with Riviera. I've never said the resale restrictions are illegal. They've been very up front with it. I am also pretty certain that they were convinced it wouldn't harm sales when they instituted it. If it is harming sales - you can bet they are rethinking it.