Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

[ELMC]

How does the resale restriction prevent people from renting exactly? All it will do is make points cheaper and thus easier to rent.

It doesn't, it's a fallacious argument. I'm not convinced that anyone at DVC fully understands the resale/rental market

Doesnt sound like the cm really answered the question; dvc has been profitable so why risk it to just spite brokers earning 5-10%. I know she works for disney but all she is saying is "even if it hurts the customer we don't want someone else making money".

I don't think it's the brokers they're trying to spite. I think it's the owners. They don't like the idea of anyone selling their DVC, ever. You bought it, you keep it, you USE it (not rent it). And so on for the next customer and so on for the next customer. As a business owner, I am familiar with this kind of thinking. Everybody is the competition.

When I sell my DVC to someone else, Disney views it as me stealing from them. I took $20,000 from John Q. Public that they would have gotten. Resale SELLERS are their competition. The brokers are simply facilitators. The tricky part is, they can't come out and say that they want their owners to never sell and be locked in forever and that owners who sell are stealing from them. So they set up this straw man argument and hope that nobody notices.

This is an honest question, is there a significant number of renters that are robbing people of their ability to get what they want?

Not sure about the second part but there are a significant number of industrial renters out there. I couldn't even begin to quantify it but between them and casual renters, the point rental market is vibrant as can be. Disney helps fuel the market by continuing to jack up the prices of hotel rooms, which are the key comparison point for point rentals. I'm curious to see what happens when the next recession comes and Disney starts to discount their hotel rooms so that booking through CRO is less expensive than renting. It won't be pretty.

 

[Brianstl]

I know I am contributing to thread drift but the resort hasn’t opened yet and the sellers must have just bought their points. How is this possible? I can’t even wrap my head around selling 325 points before even using them.

Divorce

 

[Jenniebee]

For now, they are content with just crippling the resale product and testing if that actually does impact retail sales. My guess is it won’t to any significant degree.

What they should be doing instead of punitive changes to resale, offer more incentive to buy direct. Right now there is no real serious incentive to buy from them unless staying at Riviera is the primary goal and it's a deal breaker for your family. The status of having "a blue card" is an $8000 fee on a 100 pt contract and they offer no true incentive or added features for that $8000. I know it works on a lot of people, hence their sales, but to me this is a no brainer. As a buyer, there was no compelling reason whatsoever for me to buy direct. I look at it like my options are 1) buy resale or 2) keep booking cash stays with UOC's and seasonal promos. If buying direct was a better option than any of that I would do it, but it's not.

 

[kboo]

The status of having "a blue card" is an $8000 fee on a 100 pt contract and they offer no true incentive or added features for that $8000.

Except right now the delta is not yet between RIV direct and RIV resale. They are competing with a prospective BLT or VGF resale buyer - at 200 points, the delta is probably under $5000. Then it is - for $5000 less you have BLT or VGF as a home resort but won’t ever be able to use your points at shiny new RIV. Or you can pay $5000 more and get 50 years and a blue card and privileges to stay at “every resort”. Of course they won’t say anything about how hard it is to get standard at BLT, VGF or CCV studios, etc. without home resort advantage.

 

[Bing Showei]

Right now there is no real serious incentive to buy from them unless staying at Riviera is the primary goal and it's a deal breaker for your family.

Ah, but there is. Disney is selling the flexibility in their timeshare, what originally sold most owners who already own today, except they've now bottled that exclusively by way of the retail product. The effect will increase as more resorts enter the system. What happens when they announce a new DHS gate resort? Or a new Epcot gate resort?

Except right now the delta is not yet between RIV direct and RIV resale. They are competing with a prospective BLT or VGF resale buyer - at 200 points, the delta is probably under $5000. Then it is - for $5000 less you have BLT or VGF as a home resort but won’t ever be able to use your points at shiny new RIV. Or you can pay $5000 more and get 50 years and a blue card and privileges to stay at “every resort”. Of course they won’t say anything about how hard it is to get standard at BLT, VGF or CCV studios, etc. without home resort advantage.

If I were a new buyer into DVC and could overlook the point charts (I do exactly that as a VGF owner), Riviera would be an easy choice for me. It's a gorgeous resort, and when the Skyliner hits its stride, it'll be a great temporary fix until Disney builds that footbridge into Germany. Given how much we spend on ADs over the life of a contract, the delta you describe is a drop in the bucket. Add not having to deal with the resale process, the crippled resale product, and the scarlet letter white member card into the mix, and it's a no-brainer.

 

[CarolMN]

2 thoughts:

1. The restrictions do not prevent renting. But they do prevent using the "SAP" to rent & reserve the more expensive (newer) resorts. Perhaps that is the main goal here. Of course, so many resale points are grandfathered, that won't matter until those SAP contracts get sold again and lose the grandfathered status.

2. If DVD offers a way to qualify resale points for trading that isn't the full difference between the resale purchase price and direct price, they are going to have to up the value of the blue card perks. The specially-priced annual passes alone aren't going to cut it. JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Madame]

I don’t think they understand that quite a few who own SAPs bought them (& continue to buy them) direct - SSR, OKW, AKV (to a lesser extent).

Easy to tell they’re blowing smoke. If they were truly concerned about « cheap » points, they’d stop selling SSR & OKW direct and allow new restrictions to eventually phase out those resorts to resale restricted to HR use only.

 

[Bing Showei]

2. If DVD offers a way to qualify resale points for trading that isn't the full difference between the resale purchase price and direct price, they are going to have to up the value of the blue card perks. The specially-priced annual passes alone aren't going to cut it. JMHO. YMMV.

Agreed. Going this route would also illustrates that the restrictions have zero to do with addressing the spec renters or 4,000 point commercial renters. It just demonstrates Disney's desire to double dip on the points they've already sold once.

I don’t think they understand that quite a few who own SAPs bought them (& continue to buy them) direct - SSR, OKW, AKV (to a lesser extent).

Easy to tell they’re blowing smoke. If they were truly concerned about « cheap » points, they’d stop selling SSR & OKW direct and allow new restrictions to eventually phase out those resorts to resale restricted to HR use only.

It's not that they don't understand, they just don't care.

 

[ELMC]

What happens when they announce a new DHS gate resort? Or a new Epcot gate resort?

Then I buy direct.

 

[RivShore]

It doesn't, it's a fallacious argument. I'm not convinced that anyone at DVC fully understands the resale/rental market

This might be the truest statement in this discussion!

And I think that CM was probably conflating a few different initiatives that she's heard about without fully understanding them. In general, Disney is upset with any secondary market that charges a premium for any of their products. (example: We got to talking to a CM who was off duty and pin trading at one of the parks recently. They said that Disney is working on a plan to try and deflate the secondary market for limited edition pins. They don't like resellers cobbling up all the inventory and immediately tripling++ the price on ebay. I bet all their divisions are under orders to come up with plans to tamp down on those secondary markets, from pirating of films to reselling LE pins to reselling/renting DVC.)

It really seems like they are trowing out a bunch of initiatives that they hope will impact the resale and rental markets, and maybe they will over many years, but nothing they have done is going to stop that 4k point owner she mentioned any time soon.

 

[Jenniebee]

Given how much we spend on ADs over the life of a contract, the delta you describe is a drop in the bucket.

Absolutely it is, but up front cost is the barrier to entry to get in the door. So it is important for many.

Add not having to deal with the resale process, the crippled resale product, and the scarlet letter white member card into the mix, and it's a no-brainer.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not, but if you do not lose the forest for the trees, the L14 and white card is still owning a timeshare, on Disney property, with flexibility to swap out at many amazing locations.

 

[RivShore]

What they should be doing instead of punitive changes to resale, offer more incentive to buy direct. Right now there is no real serious incentive to buy from them unless staying at Riviera is the primary goal and it's a deal breaker for your family. The status of having "a blue card" is an $8000 fee on a 100 pt contract and they offer no true incentive or added features for that $8000. I know it works on a lot of people, hence their sales, but to me this is a no brainer. As a buyer, there was no compelling reason whatsoever for me to buy direct. I look at it like my options are 1) buy resale or 2) keep booking cash stays with UOC's and seasonal promos. If buying direct was a better option than any of that I would do it, but it's not.

Your putting no value on a 50 year life span vs. the lower years in resale or the ability to book at new resorts during those 50 years vs. just L14 on resales. If those have any importance for a family, it changes the calculations.

 

[Jenniebee]

Your putting no value on a 50 year life span vs. the lower years in resale or the ability to book at new resorts during those 50 years vs. just L14 on resales. If those have any importance for a family, it changes the calculations.

You are right, that's true. I am almost 50 so I do not consider this part of it at all. But they are probably going for young families just starting out, so yeah I see how for that demographic that matters. They will definitly be a new customer, and I agree with the points that were made about them not really knowing the difference from the "old" system.

 

[Matty B13]

You are right, that's true. I am almost 50 so I do not consider this part of it at all. But they are probably going for young families just starting out, so yeah I see how for that demographic that matters. They will definitly be a new customer, and I agree with the points that were made about them not really knowing the difference from the "old" system.

Not to many young families just starting right out can afford to buy in. I know we couldn't have.

 

[Jenniebee]

So what is their target I wonder? And how does their new strategy help them get this demographic? I would love to know this seriously.

 

[RivShore]

You are right, that's true. I am almost 50 so I do not consider this part of it at all. But they are probably going for young families just starting out, so yeah I see how for that demographic that matters. They will definitly be a new customer, and I agree with the points that were made about them not really knowing the difference from the "old" system.

In your case resale certainly makes the most sense. In our case, we put our young adult kids on the deeds so we are relatively certain those 50 years will be fully utilized.

 

[ELMC]

Not to many young families just starting right out can afford to buy in. I know we couldn't have.

Sure they can...it's called financing...it makes DVC affordable to just about everybody. Also, and I'm being serious here, how often do you think "being able to afford it" is a criterion that people consider when buying a shiny new beautiful timeshare while on vacation at Disney?

 

[Bing Showei]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic here or not, but if you do not lose the forest for the trees, the L14 and white card is still owning a timeshare, on Disney property, with flexibility to swap out at many amazing locations.

I would wager that for most new owners, the things I listed associated with resale (no exchanges into new resorts, no discounts, second class status) are probably a bigger barrier to entry than signing a 10 year mortgage.

 

[RivShore]

So what is their target I wonder? And how does their new strategy help them get this demographic? I would love to know this seriously.

We're up to 22 pages of trying to figure that out

And there's this...
ELMC said:
It doesn't, it's a fallacious argument. I'm not convinced that anyone at DVC fully understands the resale/rental market

 

[ELMC]

So what is their target I wonder? And how does their new strategy help them get this demographic? I would love to know this seriously.

I don't think they're changing their target at all...it continues to be all the people who stay at DVC resorts, take the tours, visit the kiosks, visit the parks, etc. etc. What they are doing with these restrictions is taking all the people who were not buying direct and trying to force them to buy direct. These changes are aimed at them, and from everything we've been hearing from DVC, they don't think this impacts their day to day operations in the least. They may be right...we'll see. But know this...they're not done yet. Not even close.