Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (December added 1/16/2020)

[Bing Showei]

We're up to 22 pages of trying to figure that out

And there's this...
ELMC said:

It doesn't, it's a fallacious argument. I'm not convinced that anyone at DVC fully understands the resale/rental market

I'm not convinced. I'm sure people making the decisions understand it just fine. I suspect they are banking that most owners (and some of the CMs who just parrot the script) don't understand the resale/rental market, so they can couch whatever bottom-line-serving move they make using the resale/rental market as an excuse for making changes that adversely effect those same owners.

 

[RivShore]

I'm not convinced. I'm sure people making the decisions understand it just fine. I suspect they are banking that most owners (and some of the CMs who just parrot the script) don't understand the resale/rental market, so they can couch whatever bottom-line-serving move they make using the resale/rental market as an excuse for making changes that adversely effect those same owners.

Great point!

 

[Brian Noble]

So what is their target I wonder? And how does their new strategy help them get this demographic? I would love to know this seriously.

I think it is (a) anyone who will sign on the line which is dotted with (b) a low-enough chance of default. What "low-enough" is is probably higher than you think.

The new strategy is essentially FUD--Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. FUD is a powerful sales tool when information is asymmetric. And, in most timeshare transactions between the developer and a customer, information is wildly asymmetric.

This same approach is used, in some form, by most other timeshare products developed over the past decade or so--Diamond's The Club, Marriott's Vacation Club Destinations, and (now) DVC 2.0. Interestingly, Club Wyndham Access was also developed around this time, and while they did make some interesting structural changes, limiting resale access to resorts was not one of them. For example, voting rights in the underlying HOAs is retained by Wyndham for CWA owners, much as (most of) DVCs voting rights remain vested with DVD.

 

[ELMC]

I think it is (a) anyone who will sign on the line which is dotted with (b) a low-enough chance of default. What "low-enough" is is probably higher than you think.

The new strategy is essentially FUD--Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. FUD is a powerful sales tool when information is asymmetric. And, in most timeshare transactions between the developer and a customer, information is wildly asymmetric.

This same approach is used, in some form, by most other timeshare products developed over the past decade or so--Diamond's The Club, Marriott's Vacation Club Destinations, and (now) DVC 2.0. Interestingly, Club Wyndham Access was also developed around this time, and while they did make some interesting structural changes, limiting resale access to resorts was not one of them. For example, voting rights in the underlying HOAs is retained by Wyndham for CWA owners, much as (most of) DVCs voting rights remain vested with DVD.

This is so important to note and while the brief story I'm about to tell may look a bit like thread drift, I'll bring it back to the point of the thread in the end.

So y'all remember that I've mentioned a couple million times that we bought a week at Marriott Grande Vista 20 years ago. Well about six or seven years ago Marriott launched the Destinations program that functions a lot like DVC does. We received a mailer card that said that for a one-time fee of $595 we could convert our week to the Destinations program. Seeing as how that worked much better for us, we decided to do it. So we met with a MVC rep who walked us through the entire presentation and tried to tell us a hundred different ways that when we added on that our old week would be converted and that was "essentially" the only way to do it. After thwarting his attempts to sell us an additional $20,000 worth of points for about twenty minutes (I was enjoying watching him lie) I pulled out the mailer card and put it on the table, stating that I would simply like to do this. He was pissed, and rewarded us by making us wait another 15 minutes to meet with the person who would help us do this conversion that didn't put any money in his pocket.

Had I not known about the way the offer truly worked, I might have ended up buying more, as I suspect many people did. Because as stated above, the scales of information are completely imbalanced. Who knows...maybe I could have forced them to do it for free for all I know.

Point is, for all we say about DVC, it's not that. Furthermore, I would suspect that the majority of buyers don't know a fraction of what we on here know about DVC. They don't really stand a chance. And for better or worse that's the mentality behind most of the people buying.

 

[lmhall2000]

Sure they can...it's called financing...it makes DVC affordable to just about everybody. Also, and I'm being serious here, how often do you think "being able to afford it" is a criterion that people consider when buying a shiny new beautiful timeshare while on vacation at Disney?

We have not bought into DVC because we couldn’t pay cash. 20 years later- we can afford to pay cash. We also finance our cars- but fight for best deal and only finance with 0% interest- we’ve been on vacation over 15x there and always said “no”... until now

 

[mustinjourney]

Not to many young families just starting right out can afford to buy in. I know we couldn't have.

and that's why the guides push financing to direct purchasers. I sat in with my Dad last year...and even after we told the guy we had no interest in financing, ALL of the numbers highlighted at first were in monthly payments.

 

[ELMC]

and that's why the guides push financing to direct purchasers. I sat in with my Dad last year...and even after we told the guy we had no interest in financing, ALL of the numbers highlighted at first were in monthly payments.

And that makes perfect sense. It's easier to sell $300 a month than it is to sell $25,000 right now. Heck, I'm surprised they gave you numbers at all. They could've just told you to sign up and you'd love it and don't worry about the money. After all, it's just numbers really.

 

[Madame]

This is so important to note and while the brief story I'm about to tell may look a bit like thread drift, I'll bring it back to the point of the thread in the end.

So y'all remember that I've mentioned a couple million times that we bought a week at Marriott Grande Vista 20 years ago. Well about six or seven years ago Marriott launched the Destinations program that functions a lot like DVC does. We received a mailer card that said that for a one-time fee of $595 we could convert our week to the Destinations program. Seeing as how that worked much better for us, we decided to do it. So we met with a MVC rep who walked us through the entire presentation and tried to tell us a hundred different ways that when we added on that our old week would be converted and that was "essentially" the only way to do it. After thwarting his attempts to sell us an additional $20,000 worth of points for about twenty minutes (I was enjoying watching him lie) I pulled out the mailer card and put it on the table, stating that I would simply like to do this. He was pissed, and rewarded us by making us wait another 15 minutes to meet with the person who would help us do this conversion that didn't put any money in his pocket.

Had I not known about the way the offer truly worked, I might have ended up buying more, as I suspect many people did. Because as stated above, the scales of information are completely imbalanced. Who knows...maybe I could have forced them to do it for free for all I know.

Point is, for all we say about DVC, it's not that. Furthermore, I would suspect that the majority of buyers don't know a fraction of what we on here know about DVC. They don't really stand a chance. And for better or worse that's the mentality behind most of the people buying.

Oh, I don’t know about that. This was posted on a group I’m in yesterday (some here may have seen it). Can’t believe the lack of information. I also find it pretty scummy on DVC’s part, but YMMV. I think someone looked up the ppp at BCV that year. Was 67$ or something. Not the same as your example, but I mean DVC is just warming up to this whole industry standards thing.

 

[Henwen88]

Oh, I don’t know about that. This was posted on a group I’m in yesterday (some here may have seen it). Can’t believe the lack of information. I also find it pretty scummy on DVC’s part, but YMMV. I think someone looked up the ppp at BCV that year. Was 67$ or something. Not the same as your example, but I mean DVC is just warming up to this whole industry standards thing.
View attachment 445356

Ouch

 

[Brianstl]

We're up to 22 pages of trying to figure that out

And there's this...
ELMC said:
It doesn't, it's a fallacious argument. I'm not convinced that anyone at DVC fully understands the resale/rental market

I think Disney might understand the rental market more than what most believe. We will see how much that 350 point Riviera contract goes for. If the commercial renters think the restrictions won’t make it to risky for them without other resorts a backup, it shouldn’t really have to drop all that much before one of them pick it up.

 

[ELMC]

Oh, I don’t know about that. This was posted on a group I’m in yesterday (some here may have seen it). Can’t believe the lack of information. I also find it pretty scummy on DVC’s part, but YMMV. I think someone looked up the ppp at BCV that year. Was 67$ or something. Not the same as your example, but I mean DVC is just warming up to this whole industry standards thing.
View attachment 445356

Oof. That hurts my head. I will say that I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if they informed them that they could get $140 per point if they decided to sell it themselves on the resale market. We don't know if they did or not so I won't make any assumptions. I will say that even if they did it might not have mattered. If there's one thing we have seen is that people are willing to pay for convenience, and I don't think this is any different.

But also, and not to sound like an apologist, but DVC is a business and just like any business, we as customers need them to be profitable so that they can continue to provide the products and services we want. I'm pretty sure the guy who owns the sandwich shop down the street doesn't pay $8 in costs for my ham and cheese on rye. And I don't expect him to tell me that if I purchased the items separately at the grocery store my cost would be about $2 per sandwich. So I'm not sure how much we should be bashing Disney on this one.

But I'll say this...this story (and thanks for sharing because I hadn't seen it) is proof of what I've been saying all along. Disney did not jack up the prices of "sold out" resorts to ridiculous levels because they expected people to pay for them. They did it so that their incredibly expensive new resorts looked like a bargain by comparison. (I purposely said "expensive" instead of "overpriced" because expensive is a factual statement, they are expensive. Overpriced is a value judgment and I don't want to inadvertently offend any RIV buyers). It all started when BLT soared to $165 and everyone cried foul...and then rushed right out to buy VGF at the low low price of $145 a point. Fast forward a few years and that actually turned out to be a huge bargain. Kudos to anyone who saw it coming or simply didn't care. I almost pulled the trigger on four 25 point VGV contracts (that was before the separate closing fees) and now feel very silly for not doing it. And look at your story above...the poster is viewing $188 Riviera points (something that we, in general, to view as somewhat expensive) as a discount! It's genius really. The fact that people are still buying the sold out resorts at those prices is a happy accident.

Disney is charging what the market will bear for a finite resource. We may not like it, I know that I don't, but I won't bash them for it either. I have a feeling that I might be in the minority there and would love to hear thoughts on why people think I'm wrong. It will make for some interesting reading and I'll be sure to keep an open mind.

 

[Madame]

Oof. That hurts my head. I will say that I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if they informed them that they could get $140 per point if they decided to sell it themselves on the resale market. We don't know if they did or not so I won't make any assumptions. I will say that even if they did it might not have mattered. If there's one thing we have seen is that people are willing to pay for convenience, and I don't think this is any different.

But also, and not to sound like an apologist, but DVC is a business and just like any business, we as customers need them to be profitable so that they can continue to provide the products and services we want. I'm pretty sure the guy who owns the sandwich shop down the street doesn't pay $8 in costs for my ham and cheese on rye. And I don't expect him to tell me that if I purchased the items separately at the grocery store my cost would be about $2 per sandwich. So I'm not sure how much we should be bashing Disney on this one.

But I'll say this...this story (and thanks for sharing because I hadn't seen it) is proof of what I've been saying all along. Disney did not jack up the prices of "sold out" resorts to ridiculous levels because they expected people to pay for them. They did it so that their incredibly expensive new resorts looked like a bargain by comparison. (I purposely said "expensive" instead of "overpriced" because expensive is a factual statement, they are expensive. Overpriced is a value judgment and I don't want to inadvertently offend any RIV buyers). It all started when BLT soared to $165 and everyone cried foul...and then rushed right out to buy VGF at the low low price of $145 a point. Fast forward a few years and that actually turned out to be a huge bargain. Kudos to anyone who saw it coming or simply didn't care. I almost pulled the trigger on four 25 point VGV contracts (that was before the separate closing fees) and now feel very silly for not doing it. And look at your story above...the poster is viewing $188 Riviera points (something that we, in general, to view as somewhat expensive) as a discount! It's genius really. The fact that people are still buying the sold out resorts at those prices is a happy accident.

Disney is charging what the market will bear for a finite resource. We may not like it, I know that I don't, but I won't bash them for it either. I have a feeling that I might be in the minority there and would love to hear thoughts on why people think I'm wrong. It will make for some interesting reading and I'll be sure to keep an open mind.

It’s painful for sure. It makes me sad though, because many still believe that since it’s Disney they can trust them to have their customer’s best interest at heart.

It will be interesting over the next decade or so to see what type of hit (if any) the Disney brand might take by being associated with TS industry standards. I wonder if they’ll sink as low as Diamond TS that preyed on that poor elderly couple in AZ

 

[Sandisw]

Oh, I don’t know about that. This was posted on a group I’m in yesterday (some here may have seen it). Can’t believe the lack of information. I also find it pretty scummy on DVC’s part, but YMMV. I think someone looked up the ppp at BCV that year. Was 67$ or something. Not the same as your example, but I mean DVC is just warming up to this whole industry standards thing.
View attachment 445356

Actually, I don’t see this as a problem. Selling through resale takes time and for these owners, getting back initial investment was a plus for theml. I had heard the price was around $45/point, so if they got closer to &67/, it’s gone up,

Yes, the owner could sell for a lot more on the resale market, but I guess I don’t see that as DVCs job to inform them of that. The owner presented them with an idea and DVC went for it!

My thinking is really is up to the buyer to be informed as possible going into it. I certainly don’t expect my car dealer to telll me that I could get a better deal at a competitor and guess I don’t see it as the job of a guide either,

When I met with one a few weeks back, he seemed surprised when I told him what I could sell my contract for on the resale market if I decided to do the swap.

 

[Madame]

Actually, I don’t see this as a problem. Selling through resale takes time and for these owners, getting back initial investment was a plus for theml. I had heard the price was around $45/point, so if they got closer to &67/, it’s gone up,

Yes, the owner could sell for a lot more on the resale market, but I guess I don’t see that as DVCs job to inform them of that. The owner presented them with an idea and DVC went for it!

My thinking is really is up to the buyer to be informed as possible going into it. I certainly don’t expect my car dealer to telll me that I could get a better deal at a competitor and guess I don’t see it as the job of a guide either,

When I met with one a few weeks back, he seemed surprised when I told him what I could sell my contract for on the resale market if I decided to do the swap.

I think it’s more that Disney trades heavily on its reputation, client focus, etc. I agree the onus is upon us as consumers and I don’t personally condone this level of naïveté/lack of basic product comprehension. I posted this as a counterpoint to the TS story above. What that company did and what DVC did here are comparable to me. Now I guess we lump Disney in with other businesses that we tolerate rather than trust, maybe?

 

[Soap_1984]

Actually, I don’t see this as a problem. Selling through resale takes time and for these owners, getting back initial investment was a plus for theml. I had heard the price was around $45/point, so if they got closer to &67/, it’s gone up,

Yes, the owner could sell for a lot more on the resale market, but I guess I don’t see that as DVCs job to inform them of that. The owner presented them with an idea and DVC went for it!

My thinking is really is up to the buyer to be informed as possible going into it. I certainly don’t expect my car dealer to telll me that I could get a better deal at a competitor and guess I don’t see it as the job of a guide either,

When I met with one a few weeks back, he seemed surprised when I told him what I could sell my contract for on the resale market if I decided to do the swap.

I have read a lot of riviera members justifying paying more for Riv because of the disney magic; this story, if true, doesn't exactly strike me as being very "disney". How would you feel if, after this deal, you discovered resale and realized disney took advantage of you? and now they have saddled you with points you can't even sell for even close to what you paid. I doubt they'll offer the same deal next time when Riv is worth $40 on the resale market.

The high prices of disney is primarily for the service level and extra mile disney goes; anyone who thinks the deluxe resorts are actually top level hotels is delusional. take them off disney property and they are second tier or perhaps third in major cities. Disney plays on great customer service and experience, and this story is, at best, not in line with that.

 

[Brian Noble]

How would you feel if, after this deal, you discovered resale and realized disney took advantage of you?

Most people don't go looking for reasons why their decisions to spend thousands of dollars might have been unwise. It's one reason why things like TUG and other internet resources haven't put some of the other timeshare sellers out of business. You can find out in five minutes that your tens-of-thousands-of-dollars Wyndham purchase is worth 5% of that once the ink dries, but few do in time---and most don't ever. Chat people up around the hot tub, you will find a surprising number of people like this.

And, really, that's okay. They are happy. That's what money is for, spending. I treat it as more of a game, and I enjoy the pursuit of a value, but others just aren't that bothered by it.

 

[Brianstl]

Actually, I don’t see this as a problem. Selling through resale takes time and for these owners, getting back initial investment was a plus for theml. I had heard the price was around $45/point, so if they got closer to &67/, it’s gone up,

Yes, the owner could sell for a lot more on the resale market, but I guess I don’t see that as DVCs job to inform them of that. The owner presented them with an idea and DVC went for it!

My thinking is really is up to the buyer to be informed as possible going into it. I certainly don’t expect my car dealer to telll me that I could get a better deal at a competitor and guess I don’t see it as the job of a guide either,

When I met with one a few weeks back, he seemed surprised when I told him what I could sell my contract for on the resale market if I decided to do the swap.

Plus, the difference between what they actually pocketed in the sale to Disney from what they would have pocketed doing a traditional resale isn’t as big when you add the resale commission and capital gains tax they would have had to pay at $140 pp.

 

[ELMC]

I have read a lot of riviera members justifying paying more for Riv because of the disney magic; this story, if true, doesn't exactly strike me as being very "disney". How would you feel if, after this deal, you discovered resale and realized disney took advantage of you? and now they have saddled you with points you can't even sell for even close to what you paid. I doubt they'll offer the same deal next time when Riv is worth $40 on the resale market.

The high prices of disney is primarily for the service level and extra mile disney goes; anyone who thinks the deluxe resorts are actually top level hotels is delusional. take them off disney property and they are second tier or perhaps third in major cities. Disney plays on great customer service and experience, and this story is, at best, not in line with that.

I hear what you're saying but at some point the onus has to be on the buyer. They were the ones asking to buy more points and they were the ones asking their salesperson to buy back their BCV points so that they can buy Riviera. What's he supposed to do, talk them out of it? They got exactly what they asked for, and they're happy. I don't see a huge problem with it.

Where we do agree is that a Disney "deluxe" resort is at best a 3.5 or 4 star hotel anywhere else. It's the Disney touches that make it special, and as discussed here and elsewhere those touches are starting to be whittled away.

 

[Madame]

I hear what you're saying but at some point the onus has to be on the buyer. They were the ones asking to buy more points and they were the ones asking their salesperson to buy back their BCV points so that they can buy Riviera. What's he supposed to do, talk them out of it? They got exactly what they asked for, and they're happy. I don't see a huge problem with it.

Where we do agree is that a Disney "deluxe" resort is at best a 3.5 or 4 star hotel anywhere else. It's the Disney touches that make it special, and as discussed here and elsewhere those touches are starting to be whittled away.

Yes, but unless I misunderstood, you posted the anecdote above to indicate that DVC isn’t there yet. I would posit that they are. There isn’t much difference between the 2 stories except outcome - due to consumer education alone. So why is it shady when another TS does it, but not DVC ?

 

[RivShore]

I think it’s more that Disney trades heavily on its reputation, client focus, etc. I agree the onus is upon us as consumers and I don’t personally condone this level of naïveté/lack of basic product comprehension. I posted this as a counterpoint to the TS story above. What that company did and what DVC did here are comparable to me. Now I guess we lump Disney in with other businesses that we tolerate rather than trust, maybe?

But what would you have had the guide say - "hey go to our competitor and make a few bucks more"? That is not the way any company that wants to stay in business acts.

At 100 points, it's not a giant delta and there is some value in the one-stop-shop aspect of it. They took care of everything in one sitting and had the new points available immediately rather than weeks or months that a resale can take. Everyone's situation and tolerance for things like this different, if it worked for them, I don't see the problem.