Running On Empty

[DopeyBadger]

Congrats on an amazing accomplishment!

I over compensated the slowing down for the marathon. I believe I could have performed closer to a 9:30 min/mi average pace.

Why do you feel this way? It’s easy sometimes to look in the rear view and think this, but if you could have averaged close to a 9:30 then why were the last few miles 10:20-11:50? Those miles are a fade and show that if anything the pace to start (around a 9:40) was too quick. If you had gone out faster than 9:40, then based on the fade I would predict your “wall” would have started sooner and your fade would have been more extreme. So what’s your thinking on this?

Anyway, like a typical 20 year old (he turns 20 tomorrow), he has to figure things out on his own now (you know...being an adult and all). He let me know of a Nike training plan he started following on Monday. It is a Nike Half Marathon Training Plan that I think uses audio guides through an app. He sent me this link to a PDF description of the plan ( https://www.nike.com/pdf/Nike-Run-Club-Half-Marathon-Training-Plan-Audio-Guided-Runs.pdf )

I was wondering if any of you have reviewed this training plan before and have any insights?

It’s a decent plan. As always pacing matters a good bit. If he fails to run easy enough, then the plan will not allow him to succeed. It’s also very short speed intensive and light on endurance. So it’s a good plan for someone who has done a good bit of speed work in the past. Because 5 days a week with two speed and one long run is a bit aggressive. So I would call this a moderate level plan. Not a great choice for a beginner if these are not distances he has been doing lately. I would say the person running this will be better prepared for a good 10k than a good HM.

 

[shellott-hill]

Why do you feel this way? It’s easy sometimes to look in the rear view and think this, but if you could have averaged close to a 9:30 then why were the last few miles 10:20-11:50? Those miles are a fade and show that if anything the pace to start (around a 9:40) was too quick. If you had gone out faster than 9:40, then based on the fade I would predict your “wall” would have started sooner and your fade would have been more extreme. So what’s your thinking on this?

I value your experience and wisdom. I am probably falling into the same traps as many other runners you have trained.

My thoughts (and they are not back by science at this point) are that the overreaching of the previous 3 days led me to a deficit that I could not recover from in time for the Marathon. That led me to having a shorter supply of reserves that ultimately led to the fade. Could I have extended the fade if I slowed down on the Marathon? I am pretty sure that is true. I am also thinking that if I would have slowed down on the previous three runs I could have extended the fade further out. I can't recall a time during the training that I was as tired before the LR than on Marathon day.

The slower start and slower miles throughout the first portion of the Marathon were intentional. I can see myself holding back from a more comfortable 9:30-ish pace during the Marathon. You can see me falling back into the 9:30-ish type pace at miles 7,8,9,11,12,13, 14, 15 & 16. That pace/stride felt more natural to me at the time.

I am for sure open to figuring it out in more detail. This is the fun part of running I love. How to optimise and be more effective.

Here is my list to think about:

• Strength - not sure I was as strong as I could be in my legs. I slacked off of my weight training.
• Nutrition - I need more opportunities to see how fuelling will impact my runs.
• Intentional pace - I followed pacing throughout training, but threw that out the window during the race. Being intentional at what I should be shooting for as a pace for each distance is only going to help.

 

[DopeyBadger]

My thoughts (and they are not back by science at this point) are that the overreaching of the previous 3 days led me to a deficit that I could not recover from in time for the Marathon. That led me to having a shorter supply of reserves that ultimately led to the fade. Could I have extended the fade if I slowed down on the Marathon? I am pretty sure that is true. I am also thinking that if I would have slowed down on the previous three runs I could have extended the fade further out. I can't recall a time during the training that I was as tired before the LR than on Marathon day.

Well there's no doubt that your efforts on the 5k, 10k, and HM impacted your marathon. That would happen whether you ran them easy or hard. But near PR level efforts on the other three races is going to impact the marathon performance more than easy attempts as well.

If you're wondering what you could have done on a marathon if it were not for the other three races, then I would estimate something like a 3:47-4:08 or 8:41-9:28 pace. So I would agree without the other races, you could have done a 9:30 pace and without fade. In fact, I believe you probably would have done something more like sub-9 pace and gone under 4 hrs on a standalone marathon.

As individual races, your training paces suggested the following:

5k - 23:44 (7:38 pace)
10k - 49:27 (7:57 pace)
HM - 1:49 (8:19 pace)

So the times you ran 24:32, 52:27, 1:56, and 4:24 show how much time could be cut further on each as standalones. In my experience when I'm attempting to PR each race during Dopey, I'm usually 1% off on the 5k, 0% off on the 10k, 4% off on the HM, and 8% off on the M when it comes to estimated fitness. Yours were 3%, 6%, 6%, and 16%. So I definitely see room for growth on doing Dopey as well.

 

[DopeyBadger]

So the times you ran 24:32, 52:27, 1:56, and 4:24 show how much time could be cut further on each as standalones. In my experience when I'm attempting to PR each race during Dopey, I'm usually 1% off on the 5k, 0% off on the 10k, 4% off on the HM, and 8% off on the M when it comes to estimated fitness. Yours were 3%, 6%, 6%, and 16%. So I definitely see room for growth on doing Dopey as well.

And please don't take this portion as downplaying what you accomplished in any possible way. What you did accomplish for your Dopey is tremendous and you (as am I) should be very proud. This was more meant as a discussion of evaluating possible goal setting from another Dopey attempt or thoughts on what you're capable of in stand alone events.

 

[shellott-hill]

No offence taken. I am in the learning mode right now to look for improvements. I am very happy and grateful for the advice.

I agree on the improvements for the 5k, 10k, and half. The one thing to add into consideration is I was running all of this on ice and snow (no dry pavement). I am pretty sure they had an impact on my speed as well.

I have been coming back to the "wall" on the Marathon and this looks like my first area for improvement. I would like to work on strength improvements, endurance improvements and most likely fuelling. I am happy with the speed work we did. It did put a spot light on how "unfit" I was before this training plan.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I agree on the improvements for the 5k, 10k, and half. The one thing to add into consideration is I was running all of this on ice and snow (no dry pavement). I am pretty sure they had an impact on my speed as well.

Oh for sure. And that could be a double wammy. Slower speed on the ice despite a high level of effort near PR levels. Takes more work to run on ice.

I have been coming back to the "wall" on the Marathon and this looks like my first area for improvement. I would like to work on strength improvements, endurance improvements and most likely fuelling. I am happy with the speed work we did. It did put a spot light on how "unfit" I was before this training plan.

Admittedly, it's a tough tough tough thing to overcome. Even the elites of the elites see fades and hit the "wall". Not all of them in the same race for sure, but many do. I think at the end of the day, whether you hit the wall comes down to two things:

1) Appropriate pace
2) Proper nutrition

If you have an improper pace, it doesn't matter about your nutrition. If you have an appropriate pace without nutrition, it's likely not going to work either. I've run 14 marathons from 2012 to 2020. I have negative split a marathon only once.



The average of the other 12 marathons with a HM split is about 10 minutes. There are some obvious outliers, like my +40 min split first one, and +20 min split when chasing sub-4, and +23 min at Disney when I was injured. The remaining all fell around 2-7 min. So despite my PRs dropping from a 4:50 down to a 3:14, you may still not avoid the wall on a consistent basis. Few do. I think general improvement on your performance will just come with time. Endurance running is a long term sport. It takes about 7,500-10,000 career miles to hit your maximal performance.

 

[shellott-hill]

Thank you for the comments.

Back to my DS and his Running plan.

He is defiantly not a continuous runner right now. He is only starting back up. I would classify him in the "couch to half marathon" category. So the training plan he started looks like the wrong choice for him.

Here are his past race times:
9/11/16 - 5k - 0:28:39.4
9/10/17 - 10k - 0:58:04.9
2/26/18 - 13.1 mi - 2:12:20
9/9/18 - 13.1 mi - 2:21:19

Right now he is running 5k in a range of 9:55-10:25. He would be find with 3-5 days a week. He is a University student, so being able to run will be good to reduce his stress level from school.

His goal is to try and get to a sub 30 5k again, but is ultimately looking to train up for a half marathon distance. I mentioned to him that if the Dopey 2022 is back on, he should come and run one of the distances with me. Speaking on his behalf, I would say he would be looking to try and PR his half from 2/26/18 and get into the low 2 hour mark.

Do you have any thoughts or recommendations on a training plan for him? What we put together for me is really for a full/dopey, and I don't believe it fits for the half.

Thanks in advance,

 

[DopeyBadger]

He is defiantly not a continuous runner right now. He is only starting back up. I would classify him in the "couch to half marathon" category. So the training plan he started looks like the wrong choice for him.

Here are his past race times:
9/11/16 - 5k - 0:28:39.4
9/10/17 - 10k - 0:58:04.9
2/26/18 - 13.1 mi - 2:12:20
9/9/18 - 13.1 mi - 2:21:19

Right now he is running 5k in a range of 9:55-10:25. He would be find with 3-5 days a week. He is a University student, so being able to run will be good to reduce his stress level from school.

His goal is to try and get to a sub 30 5k again, but is ultimately looking to train up for a half marathon distance. I mentioned to him that if the Dopey 2022 is back on, he should come and run one of the distances with me. Speaking on his behalf, I would say he would be looking to try and PR his half from 2/26/18 and get into the low 2 hour mark.

Do you have any thoughts or recommendations on a training plan for him? What we put together for me is really for a full/dopey, and I don't believe it fits for the half.

Not a continuous runner in that his running style his run/walk or not a continuous runner in that there have been periods of time in which he has not been running over the last few months/years? I'm assuming it's the second one.

The 5ks that he runs in 9:55-10:25, would he qualify those as a max effort over 5k? An easy way to determine fitness would be for him to run a hard mile time trial. But I'd only suggest he do that after he's been running consistently for the last 4-6 weeks. Otherwise the mile time trial won't be as useful information.

There's really only a hair difference between running 9:55 for 5ks and running a 29:59 5k, so I've got to believe that since his goal is sub-30 that the 30:45 5k is a near max effort. So that would suggest the following:



With ~80% of training at a 12:16 min/mile pace or slower. How does that compare to what he has been doing recently?

If he hasn't been running consistently over the last few months, or years since his PRs are from >2.5 years ago, then I would recommend starting back off near the bottom. Something like Higdon Novice 1:

https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/half-marathon-training/novice-1-half-marathon/
All exclusively easy. Building up the mileage and consistency over the next few months. Then he can progress to something a bit more challenging with more pace variation as he continues to try and get better. Things won't work as well if he just tries to jump right in to the "middle" of training. Respect the long term process of endurance running and it'll pay off.

 

[shellott-hill]

@DopeyBadger. Thank you

 

[avondale]

Much obliged...

I was thinking of what's next...how foolish of me...I only have 51 weeks to get through my next Dopey training plan! LOL

Yeti 24-hr Challenge: 5 miles every 4 hours for 24 hours = 30 miles. http://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=79438 You do it virtually sometime between Jan. 1 and Apr. 1.

I'm probably going to do it, but I have to figure out scheduling.

 

[shellott-hill]

Week ?? of ??
We are 349 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

Summary:

• Running Distance = 9.59 miles
• Running Time = 1:37:17
• Weights: none

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• rest day

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• rest day

Friday

• Recovery run
• 1 x 3.36 mi @ EA
• Actual distance = 3.34 miles
• Actual time = 0:35:01
• Average Pace = 10:29 min/mi
• Just testing out my feet to see if they could handle the pavement pounding again. Still a little tender, but manageable.

Saturday

• rest day

Sunday

• Recovery run
• 1 x 6 mi. @ EA
• Actual distance = 6.25 miles
• Actual time = 1:02:16
• Average Pace = 9:58 min/mi
• A little tight at the beginning, but I feel I am almost ready to tackle a new training plan soon.

This week was my recovery week from my Unofficial Dopey. It is funny how you miss running when you have been doing it for so long. This week was all about getting rid of the soreness and swelling. By Friday I had to go out and try to get the blood flowing again.

What's next?

Not sure yet. I have already mapped my 22 week plan to Marathon Weekend 2022. That will begin August 10, 2021. I plan on inserting two races into this future plan: A half marathon on September 12, 2021 and the W&D challenge (?) Nov 5-11, 2021. Now I just need to figure out what I plan to do between now and then. That 24 hour 50k challenge looks interesting.

 

[azrivest]

By curiosity, have you put anything in your plan to adapt to Florida weather? Going from AB to FL in the first weeks of January can be rough on the system I would think if you're used to training in cold weather?

 

[shellott-hill]

By curiosity, have you put anything in your plan to adapt to Florida weather? Going from AB to FL in the first weeks of January can be rough on the system I would think if you're used to training in cold weather?

Good point.

I typically overdress on my runs during the winter. When my neighbour is out in shorts and a long sleeve shirt, I am in pants and a fleece. When my neighbour has switched to a windbreaker and pants, I am in my fleece, outer shell, neck warmer, gloves and toque. I am trying to make sure I still sweat profusely even when it is cold out. Just today I could have ran in a long sleeve shirt and pants, but added my fleece, windbreaker, gloves an toque.

Once I get to Florida, I am not wearing much at all during the races. I am typically in shorts and a short sleeve shirt. Even when I see others with extra layers on.

The one thing that always has me worried is the hydration level. It is super dry here and I definitely do not drink enough floods. I know from experience that I can't seem to get enough to drink while in Florida. I recall during the half marathon of MW2020 I drank two cups of water and two cups of Power-aide at every rest stop. I was still thirsty at the end of the half and did not even need to stop for the washroom during the race.

If you or any others have suggestions on how to adapt, I would love to hear them.

 

[shellott-hill]

Week ?? of ??
We are 342 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

Summary:

• Running Distance = 20.72 miles
• Running Time = 3:18:02
• Weights: no real weights, but I have been doing 10 pull-ups every day since the start of the year...does that count?

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• 35 min. @ EA
• distance = 3.13
• Time = 0:32:29

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• 5k @ HM
• Actual distance = 3.11
• Actual time = 0:25:25
• was curious if I had finished my recovery. So, I tested out my reserves by running a fast 5k. Things look good. I can start getting back into my 5 days a week of running.

Friday

• 40 min. @ EA
• Actual distance = 3.73 miles
• Actual time = 0:39:43

Saturday

• 40 min. @ EB
• Actual distance = 4.41 miles
• Actual time = 0:40:14

Sunday

• 60 min. @ LR
• Actual distance = 6.51 miles
• Actual time = 1:00:11
• Well, it finally happened. I took a dive on the ice in one of the cul-de-sac's today. This happened at about 5k into the run. I landed on my left side and felt it on the outside of me knee. Lucky I had gloves on, otherwise I am sure I would have scraped the skin on my hands. I popped up quickly took a look around to see if any one saw my tumble and continued to run. I felt a slight limp and tightness in my left knee for the remained of the run. Hopefully by continuing to run I can reduce the possibility of swelling and a stiff leg tomorrow. We shall see what happens.

What's next?

Still haven't found anything official. I think I may see if I can do the Fairytale challenge plus an additional 5k. I think that is the following days: Feb. 25 - 5k, Feb. 26 - 10k, Feb. 27 - Half. I built up my running for the MW races, I am going to see if I can keep my endurance up enough to complete these races.

 

[shellott-hill]

Week ?? of ??
We are 336 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

Summary:

• Running Distance = 33.95 miles
• Running Time = 5:22:21

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• 1 mi. WU + 6 x 0.5 mi. @ HM w/ 6 x 0.5 mi. RI @ WU
• distance = 7.1
• Time = 1:03:35
  

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• 1 mi. WU + 1 x 3.5 mi. @ HM+ 1 mi. CD
• Actual distance = 5.53
• Actual time = 0:51:00

Friday

• 1 x 5.71 mi. @ EA
• Actual distance = 5.93 miles
• Actual time = 1:00:09
  

Saturday

• 1 x 7 mi. @ EB
• Actual distance = 7.07 miles
• Actual time = 1:07:32
  

Sunday

• 1 x 8.5 mi. @ LR
• Actual distance = 8.32 miles
• Actual time = 1:20:05
  

Ramping everything back up. Feels good to start extending the runs and varying the pace again.

 

[shellott-hill]

Week ?? of ??
We are 329 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

Summary:

• Running Distance = 39.95 miles
• Running Time = 6:25:13

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• 1 mi. WU + 3 x 1 mi. @ HM w/ 3 x 0.5 mi. RI @ WU + 0.5 mi. CD
• distance = 6.01
• Time = 0:57:12
  

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• 1.5 mi. WU + 3.0 mi. @ MTempo + 0.5 mi. @ RI + 1.5 @ MTempo + 0.5 mi. @ RI + 1.0 mi. @ MTempo + 0.5 mi. CD
• Actual distance = 8.51 mi.
• Actual time = 1:20:33

Friday

• 1 x 5.73 mi. @ EA
• Actual distance = 6.01 miles
• Actual time = 1:00:27

Saturday

• 1 x 9 mi. @ EB
• Actual distance = 9.41 miles
• Actual time = 1:30:03

Sunday

• 1 x 10 mi. @ LR
• Actual distance = 10.01 miles
• Actual time = 1:36:58

Was a full week of running on the treadmill. The temperatures were below my threshold for going outside. If it is colder than -15c, I don't run outside. It usually starts to irritate my throat and lungs when it is any colder.

Woke up to -29c this morning. It was deceptive outside. Although it was bright and sunny, it was super cold.

 

[shellott-hill]

A day late and a dollar short...

Week ?? of ??
We are 321 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

Summary:

• Running Distance = 24.59 miles
• Running Time = 4:00:08

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• 0.5 mi. WU + 12 x 0.25 mi. @ 5k w/ 12 x 0.18 mi. RI @ WU
• distance = 5.85
• Time = 0:53:33
• On the treadmill

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• 1 x 6 mi. @EB
• Actual distance = 6.21 miles
• Actual time = 1:00:08
• On the treadmill

Friday

• 1 x 5.0 mi. @ EA
• Actual distance = 5.01 miles
• Actual time = 0:51:51
• On the treadmill

Saturday

• 1 x 4.0 mi. @ EB
• Actual distance = 4.01 miles
• Actual time = 0:38:15
• On the treadmill

Sunday

• 1 x 3.5 mi. @ EA
• Actual distance = 3.51 miles
• Actual time = 0:36.21
• On the treadmill

Was another full week of running on the treadmill. The temperatures were way below my threshold for going outside. If it is colder than -15c, I don't run outside. It usually starts to irritate my throat and lungs when it is any colder. Things are looking up! The cold snap is going to break this week and I may be able to get outside for a run!

I am tapering right now to run unofficial Princess Marathon Weekend races. I am going to do a 5k on Friday, the 10k on Saturday and a Half on Sunday. I am hopeful that the weather will cooperate.

Good luck to all those taking part in the Princess Marathon Weekend!

 

[shellott-hill]

In anticipation for MW 2022, I signed up for an in-person half marathon in September! On September 12, 2022, I will embark on the beautiful Canmore Rocky Mountain half marathon race in the shadows of the three sisters mountains... https://www.canmorehalfmarathon.ca/



This will be my fourth time running in this race weekend. I have run the 5k, 10k and the Half before. I will attempt to use this run for corral placement in MW 2022. There are some pretty tough hills about half way through it, but I believe the running template @DopeyBadger has given me last year will help me be "fit" enough to tackle those hills.

 

[avondale]

In anticipation for MW 2022, I signed up for an in-person half marathon in September! On September 12, 2022, I will embark on the beautiful Canmore Rocky Mountain half marathon race in the shadows of the three sisters mountains... https://www.canmorehalfmarathon.ca/

View attachment 557694

This will be my fourth time running in this race weekend. I have run the 5k, 10k and the Half before. I will attempt to use this run for corral placement in MW 2022. There are some pretty tough hills about half way through it, but I believe the running template @DopeyBadger has given me last year will help me be "fit" enough to tackle those hills.

Wow, that photo of the area is absolutely gorgeous! You almost sold me on that race weekend even though I'd never heard of it before.

 

[shellott-hill]

Week ?? of ??
We are 315 days from the starting line for Dopey 2022!

It was the unofficial - Virtual Princess Marathon Weekend!



Summary:

• Running Distance = 27.99 miles
• Running Time = 4:26:35

Breakdown:

Monday

• rest day

Tuesday

• 1 x 3.5 mi. @ EB
• distance = 3.51
• Time = 0:33:58
• I finally got back outside this week. It has warmed up enough to run outside again.

Wednesday

• rest day

Thursday

• 1 x 2 mi. @EB
• Actual distance = 2.02 miles
• Actual time = 0:19:05

Friday

• Unofficial Princess Marathon Weekend - 5k
• Actual distance = 3.11 miles
• Actual time = 0:0:25:07
• A little slower than Marathon weekend, but I was happy with it.

Saturday

• Unofficial Princess Marathon Weekend - 10k
• Actual distance = 6.22 miles
• Actual time = 0:56:01
• It was good to get outside for this.

Sunday

• Unofficial Princess Marathon Weekend - Half Marathon
• Actual distance = 13.13 miles
• Actual time = 2:12:24
• Might have been a slower and more comfortable than I wanted, but it was an enjoyable accomplishment.

I made my first moves for MW2022 this week. I have officially booked my hotels and am on the list for a race bib with a TA. I forgot how good it feels to plan a Disney trip. I don't want to get too excited yet, as I know nothing is official at this point. Hopefully it works out.

Congratulations to to all those taking part in the Princess Marathon Weekend!