Say Good Bye to Maelstrom....A 'Frozen' Ride is Definite

[LaidBackDad]

Why can't some understand that it's not only about Maelstrom? It's about ruining the theming of World Showcase too.

However I think that that ship has sailed. I expect more nations to follow suit over time until there is little left of WS.

I just don't understand why anyone would think adding Frozen to Norway will ruin any theming whatsoever to the WS. If any thing, the rumored 500 million going into the remake of the ride will go a long ways for theming when they supposedly aren't changing the ride track or boats. That may not be as much as some people want; but, it's not chump change either. It certainly indicates that more than a cheap overlay is planned. It always amazes me when visitors to WDW complain something is too "Disneyfied".

 

[rteetz]

I just don't understand why anyone would think adding Frozen to Norway will ruin any theming whatsoever to the WS. If any thing, the rumored 500 million going into the remake of the ride will go a long ways for theming when they supposedly aren't changing the ride track or boats. That may not be as much as some people want; but, it's not chump change either. It certainly indicates that more than a cheap overlay is planned. It always amazes me when visitors to WDW complain something is too "Disneyfied".

Where did you hear 500 million? Because I've heard it's much much less than that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I just don't understand why anyone would think adding Frozen to Norway will ruin any theming whatsoever to the WS. If any thing, the rumored 500 million going into the remake of the ride will go a long ways for theming when they supposedly aren't changing the ride track or boats. That may not be as much as some people want; but, it's not chump change either. It certainly indicates that more than a cheap overlay is planned. It always amazes me when visitors to WDW complain something is too "Disneyfied".

500 million was for JAPAN!!!!

50-100 for Florida... Rumored. And I know that's alot of money for you and I to blow at the mall... But Disney can't do much with it. Sad truth.

EPCOT is NOT about character rides and lands. Nemo pushed that all the way to the limit... But nemo was about the ocean... Not a fictitious ice carving kingdom!!

It's not welcome in the world showcase or EPCOT...to be clear.

Big difference between bringing Snow White and dopey out for pictures a couple times a day and taking a real country (even if highly stereotyped and full of tacky polyester outfits) and changing it to a FAKE place.

Again...I don't know how anyone doesn't see the difference. You can disagree...but you have to see it nonetheless.

 

[skier_pete]

Again...I don't know how anyone doesn't see the difference. You can disagree...but you have to see it nonetheless.

Even though I'm not all that upset with the change as most are, I do agree that this is not a good precedent. "Norway" will now be:

A restaurant featuring Princesses from other nations stories.
A Stave Church with fictional displays of Frozen.
A ride showing the story of a movie set in a fictional land of Arendell.
A meet and greet with those same characters.
A gift shop that will likely have most of its authentic merchandise removed in favor of Olaf plushes. (Don't take my wife's Halle Hansen stuff!)

What's going to be left that's actually Norway? Will they keep the CM? What will they feel about all this? I guess they still have School Bread, right? It does seem a bit "too far".

IN the end though - I do not fear that this doesn't "bode well" for the rest of WS. This is only happening because of the extreme popularity of Frozen, and Disney's eagerness to get this represented in the parks. Frozen is a once a decade phenomenon at best. (You have to go back to 2003 and Jack Sparrow/Johnny Depp to see a popularity craze even close to this.) All the other countries don't have rides and are quite unlikely to get them (forget the Ratatouille rumors). Disney is not anywhere near putting money into World Showcase. The money going into DAK and maybe DHS says to me Expect the rest of the "countries" to remain the same as they ever were for the foreseeable future.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You forgot about the bibbiddi bobbity boutique...
Don't forget that

 

[clsteve]

IN the end though - I do not fear that this doesn't "bode well" for the rest of WS. This is only happening because of the extreme popularity of Frozen, and Disney's eagerness to get this represented in the parks. Frozen is a once a decade phenomenon at best. (You have to go back to 2003 and Jack Sparrow/Johnny Depp to see a popularity craze even close to this.) All the other countries don't have rides and are quite unlikely to get them (forget the Ratatouille rumors). Disney is not anywhere near putting money into World Showcase. The money going into DAK and maybe DHS says to me Expect the rest of the "countries" to remain the same as they ever were for the foreseeable future.

Well, unless it works.

That's my biggest fear - a measurable short term bump in attendance that gets Acctg all fired up.

I so hope you're right. I just don't trust it once Pandora's Box is open.

I can already hear how well a 75 mil investment against an x percent increase in attendance is going to play to the execs.

That's like executive crack- very addictive.....

 

[rteetz]

Even though I'm not all that upset with the change as most are, I do agree that this is not a good precedent. "Norway" will now be: A restaurant featuring Princesses from other nations stories. A Stave Church with fictional displays of Frozen. A ride showing the story of a movie set in a fictional land of Arendell. A meet and greet with those same characters. A gift shop that will likely have most of its authentic merchandise removed in favor of Olaf plushes. (Don't take my wife's Halle Hansen stuff!) What's going to be left that's actually Norway? Will they keep the CM? What will they feel about all this? I guess they still have School Bread, right? It does seem a bit "too far". IN the end though - I do not fear that this doesn't "bode well" for the rest of WS. This is only happening because of the extreme popularity of Frozen, and Disney's eagerness to get this represented in the parks. Frozen is a once a decade phenomenon at best. (You have to go back to 2003 and Jack Sparrow/Johnny Depp to see a popularity craze even close to this.) All the other countries don't have rides and are quite unlikely to get them (forget the Ratatouille rumors). Disney is not anywhere near putting money into World Showcase. The money going into DAK and maybe DHS says to me Expect the rest of the "countries" to remain the same as they ever were for the foreseeable future.

The CMs were supposedly already told they would be moved around the resort.

 

[LaidBackDad]

Where did you hear 500 million? Because I've heard it's much much less than that.

That's my bad, I stand corrected. I jumbled the 50 - 100 million figure into 500.

I have to disagree that the WS isn't the place for princesses or the theme will change. To me, that just sounds too much like a code for: No kids allowed. Norway will still be Norway. They picked the Norway pavilion for a reason. Saying they will change the pavilion so it isn't Norway anymore doesn't make sense. EPCOT is still a family park in WDW and it is severely lacking in attractions for smaller kids and the WS has virtually nothing. Disney isn't the US government. 50 - 100 million is still a lot for just theming even for Disney. No way are those "cheap overlay" numbers. I understand the fear that the new ride may not live up to expectations but I think that has more to do with a rushed time frame than lack of funding or theme of the WS.

 

[wallrock]

That's my bad, I stand corrected. I jumbled the 50 - 100 million figure into 500.

I have to disagree that the WS isn't the place for princesses or the theme will change. To me, that just sounds too much like a code for: No kids allowed. Norway will still be Norway. They picked the Norway pavilion for a reason. Saying they will change the pavilion so it isn't Norway anymore doesn't make sense. EPCOT is still a family park in WDW and it is severely lacking in attractions for smaller kids and the WS has virtually nothing. Disney isn't the US government. 50 - 100 million is still a lot for just theming even for Disney. No way are those "cheap overlay" numbers. I understand the fear that the new ride may not live up to expectations but I think that has more to do with a rushed time frame than lack of funding or theme of the WS.

It still baffles me that people are equating the absence of princesses, talking snowmen, or whatever other slice of fantasy you wish to insert to mean 'no kids allowed'.

They picked Norway because it was the cheapest way for them to get Frozen into the park, much like the decision for Nemo over at the Living Seas or the Three Caballeros in Mexico. No park is sacred anymore with regards to its particular theme.

And kids are more than welcome to visit the Land pavilion, or the Universe of Energy or Spaceship Earth. Back in my childhood learning things like this was actually encouraged.

Once again, not everything has to be about a plush toy when it comes to kids.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It it my belief that any contention that lack of characters and princess meet and greets
In EPCOT means "no kids allowed" is flat wrong.

How is a place designed to showcase culture and technology not for kids?

Speaking only for this horribly off the rails country (my opinion)...why do we have to keep things so "light" for the kids?
We can't make them learn? Even in a fun environment?

Short sighted

 

[circus4u]

500 million was for JAPAN!!!!

50-100 for Florida... Rumored. And I know that's alot of money for you and I to blow at the mall... But Disney can't do much with it. Sad truth.

If Disney can't do much with it, give it to Puerto Rico and let them take care of it. Isn't that the amount of money the investors there are said to be putting up for their own Pavilion?

 

[ThurlFan]

I'll cosign the two posts by wallrock and lockedoutlogic. Keeping the character presence minimal in order to maintain a coherent theme does NOT equal kid-unfriendliness. I keep seeing this assertion over and over and it's baffling.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If Disney can't do much with it, give it to Puerto Rico and let them take care of it. Isn't that the amount of money the investors there are said to be putting up for their own Pavilion?

That's never gonna happen.

Start holding your breath.....right....now!!

 

[ThurlFan]

I just don't understand why anyone would think adding Frozen to Norway will ruin any theming whatsoever to the WS. If any thing, the rumored 500 million going into the remake of the ride will go a long ways for theming when they supposedly aren't changing the ride track or boats. That may not be as much as some people want; but, it's not chump change either. It certainly indicates that more than a cheap overlay is planned. It always amazes me when visitors to WDW complain something is too "Disneyfied".

I guess we may be at odds over the definition of "Disneyfied". To me, Disneyfied = Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise, and Big Thunder Mountain just as much as Dumbo, The Little Mermaid ride, or Peter Pan.

To me, "Disneyfied" refers to an immersive environment, that transports you to another time and/or place. In this category even resorts like Port Orleans and the Polynesian qualify. In short, the parks are an extension of Disney storytelling, only the stories are presented in three dimensions rather than the two dimensions available via film and TV (3D glasses don't count). This is why the theming is so extensive - to put you INTO a story, rather than merely show it to you. In the past, there has been a balance in the parks, between stories that are exclusive to the properties (such as Big Thunder Mountain, Expedition Everest, Haunted Mansion etc) and those that incorporate stories from other mediums (such as Splash Mountain, It's Tough To Be a Bug, etc). The primary objection to a Frozen attraction in World Showcase is not that I have anything against the movie, but that I fear we will lose that balance.

If "Disneyfied" to you means "populated with characters from from classic animated movies and shorts", then (and this is not a put down, because everyone's entitled to their likes and dislikes) you have a different vision from those who conceived and built the original Disney parks.

 

[circus4u]

That's never gonna happen.

Start holding your breath.....right....now!!

Holding my breath

Kill two birds with one stone then. Take the money to Imagination and convert it into Frozen, can't be any worse than what is there now!

 

[clsteve]

It it my belief that any contention that lack of characters and princess meet and greets
In EPCOT means "no kids allowed" is flat wrong.

How is a place designed to showcase culture and technology not for kids?

Speaking only for this horribly off the rails country (my opinion)...why do we have to keep things so "light" for the kids?
We can't make them learn? Even in a fun environment?

Short sighted

Lazy. It's just lazy.

Look, we know that princesses churn an incredibly high rate of merch. But there's still a Y chromosome out there, last time I checked (hard to make little princesses without it, btw).

And you can marry characters to tech to make it fun and educational - and still generate merch. They just have to try. And want to invest.

Here's one straight out of one of my boys' mouths that we tossed around for fun after EPCOT Dec '12:

WALL-E as the Figment of robotics - Wonders of Life converted to Wonders of Robotics. WALL-E as the guide

They had dozens of excellent ideas: the best being Wall-E guiding you through practical robotics applications in a fun way in the queue to a ride - with the queue giving actual viewpoints of the mechanics and robotics of the ride - while it's operating

Who doesn't want to see how a ride works?

And then actually ride it?

That's just from a 10-year old.

I know that may seem silly to some, or a stretch to implement. But to a lot of kids (incl. mine), the premise of the 80's EPCOT would still work just fine this day and age

 

[LaidBackDad]

It still baffles me that people are equating the absence of princesses, talking snowmen, or whatever other slice of fantasy you wish to insert to mean 'no kids allowed'.

They picked Norway because it was the cheapest way for them to get Frozen into the park, much like the decision for Nemo over at the Living Seas or the Three Caballeros in Mexico. No park is sacred anymore with regards to its particular theme.

And kids are more than welcome to visit the Land pavilion, or the Universe of Energy or Spaceship Earth. Back in my childhood learning things like this was actually encouraged.

Once again, not everything has to be about a plush toy when it comes to kids.

When you say things like "Kids are more than welcome in the Land, Universe of Energy or Spaceship Earth" and you leave out WS; that gives the impression that kids are not welcome in WS. They could have chosen to redo Figment or even Stitch in MK as a Frozen attraction, for the most part, both are less popular than Maelstrom and they would have the same budget. Money wasn't the issue. Frozen fits perfectly into Norway and it will draw younger crowds away from the front of the park to the back and / or the WS, which has traditionally been more of an adult area. Trying to portray a 50 - 100 million dollar redo of an existing ride as cheap is not credible. There is more to peoples resistance to Frozen that just original intent of Epcot concerns or other flimsy rationals.

Then again, maybe the Epcot purist are right. If I accidentally find one more hidden mickey anywhere on WDW property I will scream. I'm too grown up for that.

 

[wallrock]

When you say things like "Kids are more than welcome in the Land, Universe of Energy or Spaceship Earth" and you leave out WS; that gives the impression that kids are not welcome in WS. They could have chosen to redo Figment or even Stitch in MK as a Frozen attraction, for the most part, both are less popular than Maelstrom and they would have the same budget. Money wasn't the issue. Frozen fits perfectly into Norway and it will draw younger crowds away from the front of the park to the back and / or the WS, which has traditionally been more of an adult area. Trying to portray a 50 - 100 million dollar redo of an existing ride as cheap is not credible. There is more to peoples resistance to Frozen that just original intent of Epcot concerns or other flimsy rationals.

Then again, maybe the Epcot purist are right. If I accidentally find one more hidden mickey anywhere on WDW property I will scream. I'm too grown up for that.

I can't do much with your interpretation that because I didn't mention World Showcase specifically you assume that I intentionally left it out. I had assumed, mistakenly so, that by citing a few examples of Epcot my point would come across that kids are are in no way excluded from the park. As such, I'll qualify by saying that kids are welcome everywhere in Epcot. They're welcome to use the bathrooms, drink from the water fountains, eat at the restaurants, enjoy a snack from any of the vendors, watch the parades, walk in the shops and enjoy the scenery with the rest of us. No discrimination here in any shape, form or fashion, m'kay?

The use of 'cheap' in my comments reflected on Disney's choice of Norway because it required the least amount of investment. Sure, they could have used the Imagination pavilion, but more effort (i.e. more cost) would have been required. When you make 45 billion a year money isn't an issue and never has been. The fact that they've become stingy with it in Orlando is an issue. At least to many folks it is.

Believe and/or interpret as you see fit.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

They didnt pick Norway because it "fit perfectly" with frozen...At least not fully.

Partly? Yes...I would venture to guess that the majority of the reason is that they can reuse part of the theming (cost cutting) and that EPCOT's attendance has been flat for years now...if the geniuses looked at it they might see a correlation between when they started not to care about paying for upkeep and renovation and attendance decline...but nonetheless it's not a coincidence.

They want some of that cheap, easy, p-cess traffic up in there.

This isn't rocket science...you see four hour lines for a meet and greet in February 2014, you figure "we can have a 4 hour line WITH a gigantic general tso's Disney merchandise shop and a bibbiddi RIGHT next to it...maybe even more tables in the property's gaudiest/ worst tasting character buffet by 2016!!!!!"

Iger say CHA-CHING $$$$$$$$

 

[Planogirl]

Kids aren't welcome in World Showcase? Seriously?

There are actually kids that even live in these other nations. Maybe Disney should have shown more of the nations from a child's perspective if that helps but turning a real country into a fake country does not teach a thing. It's simply being done to pander to a group of people in order to make money. It's understandable and totally not admirable. Disney could have handled this in a way that used to set them apart from most of the rest. Now they are just another set of theme parks that luckily still has some great theming from the past.