service dogs in the parks

[bellebud]

My daughter and I have volunteered with Susan (the woman in the article) in the parks, and she's currently helping us train our puppy to be my daughters service dog. Susan is a real trainer. One of the dogs is her personal service dog, the other dogs are in training. A lot of her clients are children/teens, so the parks are a great place to train, so these children can have a service dog that can handle crowds, fireworks, food everywhere, being fussed over, etc. Her dogs go on the rides that can accommodate a dog. Susan usually has volunteers with her helping with everything... she's generally not alone with multiple service dogs. In pictures she may be the only one holding all the dogs, because she doesn't put her volunteers on display. I'm trying to think of all the points being raised here... I think I covered them all.

 

[Cubbiecakes]

Are you trying to tell us that she was taking volunteers to CostCo? Care to show us where that’s brought up in the legal brief higher up in the thread?

Still not buying it.

 

[Chickenlady]

My daughter and I have volunteered with Susan (the woman in the article) in the parks, and she's currently helping us train our puppy to be my daughters service dog. Susan is a real trainer. One of the dogs is her personal service dog, the other dogs are in training. A lot of her clients are children/teens, so the parks are a great place to train, so these children can have a service dog that can handle crowds, fireworks, food everywhere, being fussed over, etc. Her dogs go on the rides that can accommodate a dog. Susan usually has volunteers with her helping with everything... she's generally not alone with multiple service dogs. In pictures she may be the only one holding all the dogs, because she doesn't put her volunteers on display. I'm trying to think of all the points being raised here... I think I covered them all.

I'm sorry to disagree but each of the multiple times we have seen her (unless there is another person with multiple decorated large white poodles, parading them around pretending that they are service dogs) she has been alone. Numerous times on the monorail w/o anyone else in the car with her and us. It's very easy to see that she is in control (using that term "control" loosely) of the dogs by herself without any helpers or assistants. And there is never any noticeable training going on. Again, no correction of unacceptable behavior just lots of hair brushing and baby talk.

 

[kittyab]

You can buy "Service Dog" vests online. They don't mean a thing.

This person needs to get slapped down hard (and Disney needs to stop accommodating obvious fakers).

I think there needs to be some stronger legislation over this. You should be legally allowed to ask the handler for a certificate for the dog.

I can buy one of these vests for my dog and he is not a service dog. Spoiled rotten of course but he is not a service dog.

 

[WorldWalker18]

I’m training my dog to settle my account upon check out. I’m sure there won’t be any problems.

 

[bellebud]

I'm sorry to disagree but each of the multiple times we have seen her (unless there is another person with multiple decorated large white poodles, parading them around pretending that they are service dogs) she has been alone. Numerous times on the monorail w/o anyone else in the car with her and us. It's very easy to see that she is in control (using that term "control" loosely) of the dogs by herself without any helpers or assistants. And there is never any noticeable training going on. Again, no correction of unacceptable behavior just lots of hair brushing and baby talk.

I can't speak for every time Susan goes out, but we've met her inside the parks when we've volunteered, so she would have been on the monorail by herself those times. I'm honestly shocked to hear of any misbehavior from her dogs. They've all been nothing but amazing every time we've been with them. When we train, we're doing a lot of walking around the parks, getting food, shopping, going on some rides... things that a person with a service dog will do. Then we'll do some specific 'training' too, sometimes off to the side in an area that's not crowded, or sometimes in the middle of everything going on.

I think there needs to be some stronger legislation over this. You should be legally allowed to ask the handler for a certificate for the dog.
I can buy one of these vests for my dog and he is not a service dog. Spoiled rotten of course but he is not a service dog.

It's true that anyone can parade any dog around as a service dog. And since there is no legal 'certificate' for a service dog in the US, it makes it easy for anyone to do this (coupled with a "service dog" vest anyone can buy). Since I'm not disabled, I can't comment on how good or bad of a law it is (or lack of a law I guess).

 

[mummabear]

Providing proper access and accommodations for the disabled is a good thing. Getting to the point where no one is allowed to question anything one does for fear of being sued is not a good thing.

Someone who is legitimately disabled and/or a legitimate service animal trainer should be able to understand that people lie, cheat, and game systems like this all the time. They also should understand that businesses have a vested interest in ensuring that those animals who enter their place of business are, in fact, properly trained service animals who will not create issues for their other customers like the average pet would. Allowing the phonies to get away with it because we don't dare question anyone does not benefit anyone -- least of all legitimately disabled people.

We cannot know all the facts of this story and there may be more to it that would change the circumstances. But from what we know so far, this has "phony" written all over it. First, this lady has already sued another business -- Costco -- over the same thing and lost that lawsuit. Second, she has been before the Florida Commission on Human Relations and again lost. Third, there is absolutely no way -- no way what-so-ever -- that a legitimate trainer is training 5, 6, or more service animals at the same time.

Exactly, I don't understand the logic of only 3 vague questions and no certification of training

 

[DisneyOma]

My daughter and I have volunteered with Susan (the woman in the article) in the parks, and she's currently helping us train our puppy to be my daughters service dog. Susan is a real trainer. One of the dogs is her personal service dog, the other dogs are in training. A lot of her clients are children/teens, so the parks are a great place to train, so these children can have a service dog that can handle crowds, fireworks, food everywhere, being fussed over, etc. Her dogs go on the rides that can accommodate a dog. Susan usually has volunteers with her helping with everything... she's generally not alone with multiple service dogs. In pictures she may be the only one holding all the dogs, because she doesn't put her volunteers on display. I'm trying to think of all the points being raised here... I think I covered them all.

By 'real trainer' you mean what, exactly? Licensed, insured, got her education where, etc? Or just calls herself a trainer?

 

[MakiraMarlena]

Service dogs, even in training, shouldn't be training to sit on the seats of the monorail if that's what they have been doing. Unless there is some reason why the dog needs to be on the seat in order to perform its task to assist its handler.

 

[kittyab]

I have heard stories how she is using the Disney resorts for her training and blocking PAYING GUESTS from using the elevators at the resorts.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

Florida service animal in training law (this is from Florida statutes, because the federal ADA does not cover service animals in training.)

(8) Any trainer of a service animal, while engaged in the training of such an animal, has the same rights and privileges with respect to access to public facilities and the same liability for damage as is provided for those persons described in subsection (3) accompanied by service animals.

Subsection (3) reads:

(3) An individual with a disability has the right to be accompanied by a service animal in all areas of a public accommodation that the public or customers are normally permitted to occupy.
(a) The service animal must be under the control of its handler and must have a harness, leash, or other tether, unless either the handler is unable because of a disability to use a harness, leash, or other tether, or the use of a harness, leash, or other tether would interfere with the service animal’s safe, effective performance of work or tasks, in which case the service animal must be otherwise under the handler’s control by means of voice control, signals, or other effective means.
(b) Documentation that the service animal is trained is not a precondition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. A public accommodation may not ask about the nature or extent of an individual’s disability. To determine the difference between a service animal and a pet, a public accommodation may ask if an animal is a service animal required because of a disability and what work or tasks the animal has been trained to perform.
(c) A public accommodation may not impose a deposit or surcharge on an individual with a disability as a precondition to permitting a service animal to accompany the individual with a disability, even if a deposit is routinely required for pets.
(d) An individual with a disability is liable for damage caused by a service animal if it is the regular policy and practice of the public accommodation to charge nondisabled persons for damages caused by their pets.
(e) The care or supervision of a service animal is the responsibility of the individual owner. A public accommodation is not required to provide care or food or a special location for the service animal or assistance with removing animal excrement.
(f) A public accommodation may exclude or remove any animal from the premises, including a service animal, if the animal is out of control and the animal’s handler does not take effective action to control it, the animal is not housebroken, or the animal’s behavior poses a direct threat to the health and safety of others. Allergies and fear of animals are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to an individual with a service animal. If a service animal is excluded or removed for being a direct threat to others, the public accommodation must provide the individual with a disability the option of continuing access to the public accommodation without having the service animal on the premises.

Which in this situation would mean she has the same rights and privileges as if the dogs were actual trained service dogs.

Apparently one or two of the dogs the plaintiff is usually seen with are her personal service dogs and the others are in training to eventually work with other people. She has apparently always been accompanied by four to six dogs at a time. Some have said she has multiple volunteer handlers with her and just doesn't allow the handlers to be photographed, but she's often seen leading all these animals herself.

I guess the situation would be whether her work training service dogs entitles her to use WDW as her personal training ground as opposed to it being just a place she happens to go with her dogs in training (apparently it is the main place she chooses to socialize her dogs and she is there constantly, with multiple animals) and whether it is acceptable under the law for her to be training three to four dogs at a time. Also, if she's blocking access to elevators, exits, restrooms and other public areas for the purpose of training her dogs, that's not likely to be acceptable. It's much easier to be obstructive when you are hauling around five dogs than it is if you have one or even two. There's actually nothing in the law as to whether or not it's ok to train five dogs simultaneously in a crowded public area...the courts are going to interpret that one. If she is suing in federal court regarding access for her own service dog(s) she will probably win that one. If it is for the federal court to rule she has a right to the multiple dogs she constantly brings in for training in an allegedly disruptive manner, she might not.

Per her complaint, one of the dogs she had with her belonged to "a friend" and was apparently that friend's service dog...but the dog was with her, not with the friend whose service dog it was. A service dog is supposed to be assisting its owner. ADA and the Florida law indicates the dog should be under the control "of its handler" for public access, not the control of someone else.

There is a guide dog training facility in Florida that refuses to train its young dogs in the theme parks because they think the parks are too distracting and frightening for puppies. Which is interesting because the argument here is that the parks are SO distracting that it is the perfect place to socialize puppies.

 

[Cubbiecakes]

If you read the quotes above carefully, "animal" is always singular, except in (8), where "animals" is used when discussing disabled "persons."

That's enough for a countersuit in many states...

 

[MakiraMarlena]

There is a website that shows Ms. Grill training a dog to pull a wheelchair. Which is a task that is generally done by service dogs and it's no surprise that she is training the dog to do so. The photo, however, was taken on Main Street in the Magic Kingdom. She could train a dog to pull a wheelchair anywhere, but she chooses to do it inside WDW theme parks, apparently for all her trained dogs, because she feels that theme parks are the perfect socialization area for service dogs. I don't know that there is any indication, at least not on the training business' website, that she chooses to train her dogs anywhere else (Universal is mentioned, but there don't appear to be any photos from Universal).

Does the Florida law on service animals in training obligate WDW to allow Ms. Grill to use their property as her general training ground for multiple animals at a time?

I'm not sure that's even a consideration in the lawsuit she filed, as it's a federal lawsuit. Federal law, in the form of the ADA, doesn't apply to service dogs in training, so it appears her issue here may be regarding her personal service animals.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

All the puppers!
ALLLLLLLL THE PUPPERS!

 

[Hikergirl]

“This person’s complaints were already reviewed by the Florida Commission on Human Rights, which found that no unlawful practice occurred,” a Disney spokeswoman said in a statement.

End of story.

IMO if one wants to use Disney property to train their dog they need to work that out with Disney in advance, maybe Disney should charge them for this service. This doesn't sound like a case where a guest is in need of the service animal, it is a case where she has no need for them, it is her business to train them. Big difference.