Should DVC eliminate walking?

If I lived on the west coast...i'd definitely start a walk before the busy periods to avoid getting up at 4AM. Moving my reservation forward a few times at a time that is reasonable for me, would outweigh playing quickest trigger finger at 4AM and possibly getting shut out several days in a row.
 
For the rooms involved, the major cause of the 11-month problem is Disney, not, as many apparently want to believe, walking (which activity is mainly a response to, not the cause of, an 11-month issue): (a) until beginning with 2021, Disney failed to move points out of the lower demand times and into the excessively high demand fall season; (b) Disney built far too few club level and super low-cost value rooms at AKV while, for years, it sold AKV with a minimum purchase point for new purchasers of only 50 to 100 points; (b) Disney put only 46 studios in VGF to be sold beginning in 2013 at very high per-point sales prices, $145 for a short while to members and then $155, which combined with a much higher point structure than BLT, represented a 60% price increase over the the price for a week that BLT had sold out for in 2010 -- that was the beginning of its modern sales model to continuously raise the price per point beyond any reasonable amount (for a number of resorts the price has increased more than 100% in ten years), later enhanced by adding extremely high point cost bungalows and cabins, while keeping the minimum point purchase to 100 or less, all of of which actions effectively resulted in the oversell of studios; (c) Disney stuck high-point-cost cabins in CCV resulting in the oversell of studios by selling the cabin points to many who can afford only studios; Poly has thus far avoided the 11-month issue because more than 90% of the rooms are studios; (d) Disney created too few BLT standard rooms to handle demand for those lowest cost rooms; (e) Disney created too few bargain level (an OKW point cost for a near park resort) BWV standard studios to handle the Food & Wine and other high fall demand, and likewise too few BWV boardwalk view studios with their outstanding views; another Disney decision has done in those BWV studios entirely -- before 2016 the BWV 11-month issue was limited to times during the high fall demand season; by 2018, it had become a year-round problem because of one change: Disney put a fifth bed in the studios to allow 5.

Eliminating walking will not end the 11-month issue for rooms that have it. The solutions offered to walking are, when studied closely, much worse than the disease, e.g., allow only cancelling and then rebooking, an activity that would result in many who have to modify reservations for valid reasons -- such as drop and add a day due to a work schedule change, a flight change, or a change in school schedule -- not being able to do a change because availability has changed. And asking the modern DVC to rectify walking is like inviting the devil into your home to do you in, because what will happen is that it it will do something far worse than you ever imagined and assert it is being done because members overwhelmingly requested it, e.g., one of its explanations offered for adopting the new resale restrictions for reserving Riviera and future resorts was the assertion that many direct purchasers complained that resale purchasers were preventing them from getting reservations.

It won't take care of the availability problem and if that is the only problem you are trying to fix, then it does nothing. However, it will take care of the problem of DVC reservations being a pain in the back end for some people to manage. For someone like me, and there are many of me, who wants to log in once, at the eleven month window, and make a reservation and if I get it great, and if I don't, I book preferred view, or move my dates, walking makes my life just a little more difficult. If the room I want needs to be walked into, its that much more work, but that really isn't the problem I'd like to see solved. Its that room in September that DOESN'T need to be walked into that I can't get at eleven months because a bunch of people have started walking, and so I need to give it a week or two and hope it opens up and I can get the room I want. And to address fairness, that isn't fair. It isn't fair that a room that someone doesn't even want is booked when I log in because they are walking.

And I use me as an example, but its never affected me because we have never walked, and we aren't going for high demand rooms at high demand periods of time - as I said, I log in once, at eleven months, and book what is available - maybe log in at seven months and switch. But I find the reserved sign hanging on a room that you are not going to use when someone else would like to book it offensive - you are stealing TIME from another member. And time is the most valuable commodity people have.
 
I’d like to see it eliminated. I think there have been some good suggestions that are workable. I also think MS could look at patterns and figure it out easily if they wanted to—I just don’t think they care. If it started to impact their bottom line then you bet they’d figure something out.
 
The Special Season provisions apply to things that could be special, high demand seasons such as Christmas. It was used for Christmas week in the 1990s. Any member could, beginning about 2 years before an applicable Christmas, put themselves on a reservation list for any room and resort for that future Christmas week (no limitation that it had to be home resort). The list was closed about a year before the applicable Christmas, at which time DVC would start calling all such members in the order they got on the list to determine if they still wanted the reservation. It did that until the resorts were full or the list expired. If, thereafter, there were still any openings, the week would then be subject to the regular 11-month reservation window. The program was ended mainly because it required too much work for DVC, a reason why we are unlikely to ever see it again, except perhaps if something like the summer olympics comes to Orlando.

DVC cannot use that provision as an excuse to create special seasons for times that simply have excess demand, like the first two weeks of Dec or other times during the Fall season, because of DVC's failure for over a decade to alleviate the excess demand via shifting points among seasons, a process started with the new point charts for 2021 and which might continue with 2022 charts.

The Special Season and other provisions in the official documents say nothing about DVC being able to charge fees for making or changing DVC reservations. Under Florida law and regulations, that absence of terms in the POS's which would allow charging such fees means trying to now charge fees would be deemed an improper use charge.

The issue of rooms booking full before or right at 8 a.m. at 11-months out is limited to certain rooms, and for a number of those just part of the year, e.g., threads to end walking on these boards seem to show up after the 11-month window passes for extremely high demand but low point times such first two weeks in Dec and marathon weekend in Jan, which emphasizes the point that the real problem is that there are far too many members trying to reserve rooms, particularly low-point cost studios, during the most-desired low point cost seasons, which weeks should actually have point costs similar to magic season.

For the rooms involved, the major cause of the 11-month problem is Disney, not, as many apparently want to believe, walking (which activity is mainly a response to, not the cause of, an 11-month issue): (a) until beginning with 2021, Disney failed to move points out of the lower demand times and into the excessively high demand fall season; (b) Disney built far too few club level and super low-cost value rooms at AKV while, for years, it sold AKV with a minimum purchase point for new purchasers of only 50 to 100 points; (b) Disney put only 46 studios in VGF to be sold beginning in 2013 at very high per-point sales prices, $145 for a short while to members and then $155, which combined with a much higher point structure than BLT, represented a 60% price increase over the the price for a week that BLT had sold out for in 2010 -- that was the beginning of its modern sales model to continuously raise the price per point beyond any reasonable amount (for a number of resorts the price has increased more than 100% in ten years), later enhanced by adding extremely high point cost bungalows and cabins, while keeping the minimum point purchase to 100 or less, all of of which actions effectively resulted in the oversell of studios; (c) Disney stuck high-point-cost cabins in CCV resulting in the oversell of studios by selling the cabin points to many who can afford only studios; Poly has thus far avoided the 11-month issue because more than 90% of the rooms are studios; (d) Disney created too few BLT standard rooms to handle demand for those lowest cost rooms; (e) Disney created too few bargain level (an OKW point cost for a near park resort) BWV standard studios to handle the Food & Wine and other high fall demand, and likewise too few BWV boardwalk view studios with their outstanding views; another Disney decision has done in those BWV studios entirely -- before 2016 the BWV 11-month issue was limited to times during the high fall demand season; by 2018, it had become a year-round problem because of one change: Disney put a fifth bed in the studios to allow 5.

Eliminating walking will not end the 11-month issue for rooms that have it. The solutions offered to walking are, when studied closely, much worse than the disease, e.g., allow only cancelling and then rebooking, an activity that would result in many who have to modify reservations for valid reasons -- such as drop and add a day due to a work schedule change, a flight change, or a change in school schedule -- not being able to do a change because availability has changed. And asking the modern DVC to rectify walking is like inviting the devil into your home to do you in, because what will happen is that it it will do something far worse than you ever imagined and assert it is being done because members overwhelmingly requested it, e.g., one of its explanations offered for adopting the new resale restrictions for reserving Riviera and future resorts was the assertion that many direct purchasers complained that resale purchasers were preventing them from getting reservations.

That’s good to know that Florida law prevents the fee. Since it said that document could be changed, I assumed that gave them leeway.

i appreciate the in depth info re: special seasons. I figured you would respond with more info!
 


I'm ok with that. If someone is changing their reservation several times within their 11-month window, they are either a lousy planner or a walker. I don't think DVC should be obligated to design a system that enables either group.

The changes would not be limited to home resort only. They’d have to apply to all.

And there are plenty of reasons to change and adjust. Some resorts have several types and views of rooms. Sometimes I don’t know at 11 months whether my trip will be solo so I book 5 or 6 nights, and adjust when I know.

That doesn’t make someone a lousy planner or a walker, I mean, if you want AKV value and don’t get it, you might keep trying to change it, etc.
 
So experimenting with walking for really the first long time other than maybe a day or two ahead of my dates. I loaded my points for this year so I can snag the week of October 1st next year by doing a full week and it takes me maybe a minute or two to move it along each day. Started soon as my points dropped

So you are walking for the 50th anniversary which is Oct 1st 2021 already? May I ask which resort/category you think warrants an 8 to 9 month walk? That’s some serious dedication, I thought I was hardcore.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want a flawed system, would we? :)

Since walking is only viable at 11 months, I'd be happy to see it fall off after that.

Certain rooms are viable to be walked at 7 months. I just walked a VGC 1 bedroom for a few weeks and without walking I would 100% not have secured the reservation. I was able to get four consecutive nights during Star Wars Celebration by walking.
 
The changes would not be limited to home resort only. They’d have to apply to all.

And there are plenty of reasons to change and adjust. Some resorts have several types and views of rooms. Sometimes I don’t know at 11 months whether my trip will be solo so I book 5 or 6 nights, and adjust when I know.

That doesn’t make someone a lousy planner or a walker, I mean, if you want AKV value and don’t get it, you might keep trying to change it, etc.
I don’t see why people keep bring up changing rooms as being affected. Simply cancel the entire reservation and book the new one. Walking can be curtailed without blocking a full cancel. Full cancels do not fuel walking and have no need to be blocked. Full cancel should always be available.

I’ll also add that the occurrence of rooms popping up after booking but while the reservation is partially outside the booking window is largely an after effect of walking. Those rooms popping up are walkers walking by.
 


I don’t see why people keep bring up changing rooms as being affected. Simply cancel the entire reservation and book the new one. Walking can be curtailed without blocking a full cancel. Full cancels do not fuel walking and have no need to be blocked. Full cancel should always be available.

I’ll also add that the occurrence of rooms popping up after booking but while the reservation is partially outside the booking window is largely an after effect of walking. Those rooms popping up are walkers walking by.
I would much prefer to modify so I know I don't lose what I have until the new room is secured. I would not like the idea of cancelling then booking something else.
 
I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how people will feel any less frustrated if walking is curbed, and there are still a boat load of people not getting the rooms. Just not enough cheap studios to go around for high demand time like fall And early December.

Why does eliminating walking have to achieve the unachievable? Can’t eliminating cheating be a goal unto itself?

My personal beef is against rule breaking. Also there was that time I had to piece together a reservation after the walkers walked by and I thought, gee this is stupid. There must be a better way!
 
I would much prefer to modify so I know I don't lose what I have until the new room is secured. I would not like the idea of cancelling then booking something else.
Programmatically, I don’t see that as being an impediment. A modify that involves a full cancel would be permitted. A modify that partially cancels the first day while part of the reservation is outside the 11 month window would not.
 
Why does eliminating walking have to achieve the unachievable? Can’t eliminating cheating be a goal unto itself?

My personal beef is against rule breaking. Also there was that time I had to piece together a reservation after the walkers walked by and I thought, gee this is stupid. There must be a better way!

I know people don’t agree but it is not rule breaking. The rules say you can book 11 months from check in Plus 7 days. The rules say you can cancel or change your reservation without penalty up to 31 days in advance,

While people don’t like it, it isn’t against the rules. You can argue it breaks the spirit of the rules, but an owner is entitled to book any dates they want and change them any time they want,

Like it said, if people want this changed, then they have to get the rules of our program changed....which will be changes that apply in situations that have nothing to do with this issue,

First come, first serve means just that. If a room isn’t available when you go to book, then you create a waitlist. Simply as that, No need to check daily unless you want to.
 
Why does eliminating walking have to achieve the unachievable? Can’t eliminating cheating be a goal unto itself?

My personal beef is against rule breaking. Also there was that time I had to piece together a reservation after the walkers walked by and I thought, gee this is stupid. There must be a better way!

Not sure what you mean by achieve the unachievable.
So far any suggestion I have seen sounds worse than the supposed problem of walking.
 
I don’t see why people keep bring up changing rooms as being affected. Simply cancel the entire reservation and book the new one. Walking can be curtailed without blocking a full cancel. Full cancels do not fuel walking and have no need to be blocked. Full cancel should always be available.

I’ll also add that the occurrence of rooms popping up after booking but while the reservation is partially outside the booking window is largely an after effect of walking. Those rooms popping up are walkers walking by.

My response about changing rooms was in response to a limit on changes. Would that count?

Sometimes people want to change rooms but don’t want to cancel until they know the other room is there. That is the whole purpose of the modify feature. You don’t risk losing what you have unless you get what you want.

For example, you have a garden view room booked. But really wanted BW view, Every day you check and on day 5 after booking, it’s there, You now modify the original reservation, which keeps it the same res number, If you are forced to cancel first, and then book, you could lose both rooms.

If there was a rule that states only X amount, this could count. I also know that when you change the names, it goes through the entire booking process and makes you rebook, Again, this would have to be fixed to not count as a change,

It is not as easy as people think. Plus, one poster today explained that Florida Timeshare law might prevent fees and possibly other types of penalties as that was not how the program was designed,
 
I know people don’t agree but it is not rule breaking. The rules say you can book 11 months from check in Plus 7 days. The rules say you can cancel or change your reservation without penalty up to 31 days in advance,

While people don’t like it, it isn’t against the rules. You can argue it breaks the spirit of the rules, but an owner is entitled to book any dates they want and change them any time they want,

Like it said, if people want this changed, then they have to get the rules of our program changed....which will be changes that apply in situations that have nothing to do with this issue,

First come, first serve means just that. If a room isn’t available when you go to book, then you create a waitlist. Simply as that, No need to check daily unless you want to.
Not only is it not against the rules, MS frequently encourages it and teaches people how to do it.
 
Not sure what you mean by achieve the unachievable.
So far any suggestion I have seen sounds worse than the supposed problem of walking.
The post I quoted referred to making hard to get rooms more available. Walking does not create or destroy rooms, it simply shifts them around. So eliminating walking won’t make more rooms available either. I object to making this as the needed goal for eliminating walking.

I get the fear of change. But the idea I propose (not that MS will adopt it. Discussion is fun though) is a Temporary block on partial cancellations that include the first night. The goal is to eliminate recycling points for continuous walking.

lots of posters say the cure is worse than the disease, but I disagree. This restriction is focused and temporary. think about the last time you needed to drop just the first day of your reservation and whether you needed to early.
 
The post I quoted referred to making hard to get rooms more available. Walking does not create or destroy rooms, it simply shifts them around. So eliminating walking won’t make more rooms available either. I object to making this as the needed goal for eliminating walking.

I get the fear of change. But the idea I propose (not that MS will adopt it. Discussion is fun though) is a Temporary block on partial cancellations that include the first night. The goal is to eliminate recycling points for continuous walking.

lots of posters say the cure is worse than the disease, but I disagree. This restriction is focused and temporary. think about the last time you needed to drop just the first day of your reservation and whether you needed to early.
Your solution doesn't stop walking, reduces flexibility, and benefits owners with more points.....it's not a fear of change, it's a desire to not make things worse than they are now. I own at AKV and mostly book studios so I would absolutely love to be able to log in at 11 months and grab a value or club studio without either walking or grabbing rooms as they are dropped but at least we're all playing within the same rules and all owners have an equal opportunity to book the hard to get rooms. Sometimes I get the room I want, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I walk, sometimes I grab rooms as others walk. Sometimes I just go with a different booking category. At least when I don't get a room I don't feel that someone else had an unfair advantage, they just beat me to it. If there was a way to stop walking without having a greater negative impact then I'm all for it but the solution has to be better than the problem.
 
Your solution doesn't stop walking, reduces flexibility, and benefits owners with more points.....it's not a fear of change, it's a desire to not make things worse than they are now.

Any change to eliminate walking, by definition, must be a reduction in flexibility in that it reduces the ability to walk.

I disagree with the notion that eliminating walking benefits large point owners. I know you don’t feel the same way, but that’s just where we are. Having more points gives one more buying power and I’m okay with that. I’m happy to support socialism in other contexts, but socialism in DVC is antithetical to its capitalistic roots.
 
The post I quoted referred to making hard to get rooms more available. Walking does not create or destroy rooms, it simply shifts them around. So eliminating walking won’t make more rooms available either. I object to making this as the needed goal for eliminating walking.

I get the fear of change. But the idea I propose (not that MS will adopt it. Discussion is fun though) is a Temporary block on partial cancellations that include the first night. The goal is to eliminate recycling points for continuous walking.

lots of posters say the cure is worse than the disease, but I disagree. This restriction is focused and temporary. think about the last time you needed to drop just the first day of your reservation and whether you needed to early.

I get what you are saying, but in practice, how long would be acceptable?

When is the rule applied in terms of not changing first day? Only 11 months? Or any reservation booked?

In terms of large points owners, we would definitely get the advantage, Say they did what you expect, i would use all my RIV points to secure my early December reservation as early as I could to start and add days until I get what I wanted, I would then hold that room until i would be able to realize the first day...pretty much a month worth of days when I only want 4 or 5 vs. now when I hold only the number of nights I need and then realize them a few days later.

Since I have 650 additional points, I’d still be able to book my vacations during less busy times, Do you think that makes it still fair for All owners?
 
I know people don’t agree but it is not rule breaking. The rules say you can book 11 months from check in Plus 7 days. The rules say you can cancel or change your reservation without penalty up to 31 days in advance,
I agree that folks who employ this tactic are technically not breaking any rules and are certainly entitled to use this loophole as long as it exists. My argument is for the elimination of the loophole itself.

I don't argue from the perspective of what is the best system for jarestel, or Sandisw, or any other individual member. My point is that we all acknowledge that DVC's intent is to give home resort owners an 11-month booking window. It's in the documents and we all (I think) understand this. The fact that a loophole exists that allows a member to pervert the intent of the 11 month window into a virtual 12 month, 13 month, or who knows how many months booking advantage runs contrary to the spirit of the rule.

So if the booking process needs to become more restrictive in order to return to a true 11 month booking window, then so be it, I can live with it. OTOH, if DVC says they no linger care about booking windows and a member can book as far in advance as they want, I'm good with that approach as well.

Edited to add:
The 11 month home resort booking window is guaranteed by the POS when they sell the timeshare, while the process to implement the booking window is simply how DVC chooses to manage the windows. If one can demonstrate that the process violates the terms of the POS by allowing some members a longer than 11 months booking window, and by extension, depriving others of the 11 month booking window, I think DVC could be forced to change the process to become compliant with the POS.
 
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So you are walking for the 50th anniversary which is Oct 1st 2021 already? May I ask which resort/category you think warrants an 8 to 9 month walk? That’s some serious dedication, I thought I was hardcore.



Certain rooms are viable to be walked at 7 months. I just walked a VGC 1 bedroom for a few weeks and without walking I would 100% not have secured the reservation. I was able to get four consecutive nights during Star Wars Celebration by walking.

I'm walking a 1 bedroom standard at Riviera until I hear back from two others in our party and then I'll have to make it a 2 bedroom if they come
 

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