Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reaction and Discussion *CONTAINS SPOILERS*

[TheMaxRebo]

Yeah - I think that's a real problem with what IX has to do - it almost has to be a beginning as well as a conclusion. Tough road to hoe.

It's the real problem of a franchise like this...things can't ever "conclude". Return of the Jedi tied the whole thing up in a nice bow. The Emperor is defeated, the rebel alliance wins, everyone celebrates. Are we allowed to even have that now? They have to just keep on fighting to justify the next movie. It's the biggest problem with the Marvel movies, you can't just have a happy ending, the ending of the movie has to practically set up the next movie...

As far as the Jedi vs Sith though - I'm good with getting rid of them. What the hell are the Sith anyways? It's always a master and apprentice, but no idea where they come from or how a new one comes along? It's all really dumb. A Lucas dumped on the Jedi so hard in the prequels - they're all a bunch of morons. If the prequels didn't exist I probably would want more of them, but those prequels just made the Jedi so worthless - like they deserve to lose.

The history of the Sith is pretty interesting and looking back at some of the really powerful ones. Basically they are "Fallen Jedi" who didn't believe the principles of the Jedi were right and rather passion and emoiton should be followed. There was a giant galactic civil war within the Jedi that led to the schism and ultimately the rise of the Sith. The Rule of Two (the master and apprentice) was started by Darth Bane (why it is also known as the Banite system) and was founded because there were a ton of Sith Lords but there was a ton of infighting and they couldn't conquer as much as they wanted due to it, so they got rid of all of that by the doctrine that there can be only two and each knew their place.

 

[jkh36619]

@HamillHimself

✔@HamillHimself

I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill https://twitter.com/StupendousWave/status/945409809150500865 …


In my opinion he obviously said that because the studio was getting hit hard from his past reactions. There are numerous interviews the past 2 years of him hating everything they were doing with his character. I highly doubt he all of a sudden had a change of heart. He is just being PC about it. I have no doubt in my mind that he doesn't mean a word that he wrote or said praising it

I would be willing to bet behind closed doors Hamill is not happy.

 

[rteetz]

I would be willing to bet behind closed doors Hamill is not happy.

I think of Mark as a pretty honest guy. I can’t imagine him being that unhappy.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I would be willing to bet behind closed doors Hamill is not happy.

well, I don't think we will ever know for sure. Clearly at least at first he wasn't a fan because that is not how Luke would have behaved in Mark's mind .... but the point is, this isn't Mark's Luke Skywalker, it isn't your Luke Skywalker, it isn't my Luke Skywalker, etc. - it is Rian Johnson's Luke Skywalker (with Disney approval) and he clearly wanted to go in a different direction and show the character would evolve and have challenges and, yes, fail. That is a key point to this movie - failing, but learning from that failing to not make the same mistakes, otherwise you just get the same result - as DJ says, "they blow up you today, you blow up them tomorrow" - I think it is about breaking that cycle (in the storyline but also the cycle of the movies themselves) and going in a different direction

 

[jkh36619]

I think of Mark as a pretty honest guy. I can’t imagine him being that unhappy.

I could see it if there is opportunity for him in future films as flash backs or jedi ghosts, etc. he could have very well been told to zip it.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Finally saw it last night and couldn't wait to get over here and join the debate. I am not surprised to find that this movie is polarizing. When people have such high expectations, its bound to let some people down.

Personally, I really enjoyed it and can't wait to see it again. I won't go into all of my thoughts b/c most of them have been discussed already, but I'll say that:

1. I loved Luke's arc. In the beginning of the movie he was reminiscent of his younger bratty self, mixed with how Yoda behaved when he first sought him out. It may not be what I was immediately expecting, but after thinking about it, it totally makes sense and feels right. We see his character flaws (with his treatment of the Ben situation) and that he still has something to learn from Yoda. In fact, that scene where he and Yoda are watching the tree burn is one of my favorite from the film... at first I was like "wait, would Yoda really burn that down?", but I think it was all in an effort to teach Luke something, and that teacher/student relationship reminded me of the OT and therefore felt like an appropriate set up to what would eventually be the end for Luke. I shed a tear at his final scene.
   
2. I totally agree with what others have said about Snoke.. I actually came home and wikipedia'd him because I want to know where the hell he was during the OT since presumably he was alive somewhere. I think I am going to start reading all the canon books to fill in some of the blanks... as other PP's have said, you can't tie up everything in a 2 hour movie. We are lucky that those answers are out there, if we know where to look!
3. Didn't love the casino scenes, but also wasn't bothered by them. Felt a little like an homage to the cantina. Just like with the humor, you can either look at this stuff as gratuitous, or see it as an homage to the OT, which were cheesy and campy at times. I appreciate it for what it is, and laughed several times throughout the movie.
   
4. I did feel that the sense of loss and sacrifice was heavy in this movie, and I was glad, because that was one of the things I found so moving in Rogue One.
   
5. Rey's parentage- I am not sure if I buy that they were nobodies.... however, the movie does seem to be setting up for what other PP's have also mentioned.. that anybody can use the force. Its a radical departure from the SW tradition of "chosen ones" and heirs apparent, etc., but what an epic and powerful statement to end the story.

For the record, I am a child of the 80's and grew up watching the OT on VHS so consider myself a lifelong fan. I don't feel like SW owes me anything... I can sit back and appreciate each movie (even episodes 1-3) for entertaining me and telling me stories about characters I love. Overall I think that TLJ has a much more human feel to it... even "masters" have flaws, nobodies can be heroes, etc. I think it was an appropriate "bridge" movie and can't wait to see IX!

What a great post, and I share your enthusiasm for this film and am excited for the next one.

 

[andyw715]

Yes, totally agree with this!

The one thing I did like about that battle was when they had the shot of her with her helmet cracked and you could see part of her face. Sometimes I forget that the Stormtroopers are actually people and not just robots! (Probably thanks to me being newer to Star Wars!)

Not only that but Phasma was a real bad-***. In the Phasma novel, she would go to any lengths to gain power, flip sides, kill people (she killed Hux's dad).
Only to succumb to a couple minutes on screen being defeated by a "janitor" (ok 'sanitation' whatever)

 

[umichigan10]

Not only that but Phasma was a real bad-***. In the Phasma novel, she would go to any lengths to gain power, flip sides, kill people (she killed Hux's dad).
Only to succumb to a couple minutes on screen being defeated by a "janitor" (ok 'sanitation' whatever)

Hey now, he polished those floors thousands of times and knew the weakest point where it would collapse in on itself

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Not only that but Phasma was a real bad-***. In the Phasma novel, she would go to any lengths to gain power, flip sides, kill people (she killed Hux's dad).
Only to succumb to a couple minutes on screen being defeated by a "janitor" (ok 'sanitation' whatever)

well, based on Finn's back story he wasn't just a janitor but a high performing member of the storm troopers (and was the leader of his regiment) and under Phasma who basically abused him and pushed him to be a better storm trooper but also knew he was questioning the Empire as perhaps not really the "good guys"

Obviously they are going with a lot of surprises with these films so I have no real confidence in saying this but my guess is that Phasma is still alive

 

[tjkraz]

I would be willing to bet behind closed doors Hamill is not happy.

I suspect a high percentage of Hollywood actors are not 100% satisfied with the decisions writers & directors make for their characters. It's a collaborative medium.

 

[BrianL]

That’s one thing I disagree on. I don’t like the egalitarian anyone-can-be-a-Jedi thing. This is the one thing that strikes me as too much of a departure and contradiction. More of a current political statement than something that serves this saga / story.

I’m hoping that her parentage ends up being a lie — that it was a way for Kylo to try to manipulate her, or whatever.

I don’t think that ANY decision should be made for fear that it will look like caving to “fanboys”. Who cares?? What is best for the overall saga — that should guide it and that alone. Perhaps they’ll still stick with this if that’s what they deem best for the story. I hope they don’t.

I don’t think it makes the arc seem directionless at all. I think it can be explained as a manipulation and would be more consistent with the 7 movies that came before it.

I'm not sure I understand where a lot of fans come from on this. Anyone (not everyone) can be Force sensitive, regardless of their parentage. It's not strictly inherited. I mean, yeah, someone with parents who are strong in the Force are likely to be stronger, but in some bloodlines someone has to be the first. In the old times the Jedi would look for them and then take them into training. A lot of people though were Force sensitive and never even knew it. Without knowledge and training, it just seems like you're pretty lucky or whatever. I don't think the movie is saying the everyone now has Force powers, just that there are in fact still kids out there who do, a potential for future training. All living beings are connected to the Force in some way, and Rey could certainly have force powers, even if her parents were "nobodies."

 

[BrianL]

well, based on Finn's back story he wasn't just a janitor but a high performing member of the storm troopers (and was the leader of his regiment) and under Phasma who basically abused him and pushed him to be a better storm trooper but also knew he was questioning the Empire as perhaps not really the "good guys"

Obviously they are going with a lot of surprises with these films so I have no real confidence in saying this but my guess is that Phasma is still alive

Right. Finn was assigned to Janitorial while stationed on Starkiller Base. Hey, someone had to do it. He was also in Kylo Ren's landing party at the beginning of TFA, so he's certainly been combat trained.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

In the old times the Jedi would look for them and then take them into training. A lot of people though were Force sensitive and never even knew it. Without knowledge and training, it just seems like you're pretty lucky or whatever.

I get what you’re saying and have already thought of that. Is that really addressed in the FILMS, though? Doesn’t it seem a tad out of sync with expectations if you’re just watching the films?

Doesn’t it feel from the entire vibe of the movie that there’s a statement being made there? It’s not just a few special people with some sort of genetic linkage or predisposition, but “nobodies” (as you say) all over the galaxy are now poised to become Jedi in the future?

Felt like a deliberate message and change in direction/emphasis, and it was a tad much to me. And to my friends / family when we all discussed it later.

As I’ve said many times, I still quite liked the film. This was an eye roll moment for us and one we felt was out of step with the SEVEN FILMS that came before it on this fairly important point. I still hope they dial this back a tad, in emphasis if not in any other way. But it’s a movie. There’s only so worked up I could ever get over it.

 

[BrianL]

I get what you’re saying and have already thought of that. Is that really addressed in the FILMS, though? Doesn’t it seem a tad out of sync with expectations if you’re just watching the films? Doesn’t it feel from the entire vibe of the movie that there’s a statement being made there? It’s not just a few special people with some sort of genetic linkage or predisposition, but “nobodies” (as you say) all over the galaxy are poised to become Jedi in the future?

Felt like a deliberate message and change in direction/emphasis, and it was a tad much to me. And to my friends / family when we all discussed it later.

Well, it's covered in the prequels, particularly Episode I. Qui-Gon talks about. How could all the young Jedi be the kids of previous Jedi when Jedi generally are forbidden from having relationships? Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force Sensitive that we know of, so why Anakin? Why anybody? Some people just get that extra boost in Force sensitivity, and while it can carry through bloodlines, it doesn't have to. It's like a genetic mutation. One's parentage might increase the odds of certain attributes, but it's not a guarantee that you will or won't have something based on that. Keeping in mind that all life has some kind of connection to the Force (those Midichlorians are everywhere!) and it seems to make sense.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Well, it's covered in the prequels, particularly Episode I. Qui-Gon talks about. How could all the young Jedi be the kids of previous Jedi when Jedi generally are forbidden from having relationships? Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force Sensitive that we know of, so why Anakin? Why anybody? Some people just get that extra boost in Force sensitivity, and while it can carry through bloodlines, it doesn't have to. It's like a genetic mutation. One's parentage might increase the odds of certain attributes, but it's not a guarantee that you will or won't have something based on that. Keeping in mind that all life has some kind of connection to the Force (those Midichlorians are everywhere!) and it seems to make sense.

Fair enough. I guess I took that as Shmi might not have been force sensitive, but Anakin’s “father” must have been... or it skipped a generation. That there is still a bloodline link.

Maybe I just blocked out the prequels to a great extent!!!! I only saw them twice at most.

Maybe it’s the emphasis and presentation of this topic in this film that we reacted to most. Felt like an obvious message/bent to this movie to us. One that didn’t enhance the story.

And I still think there needs to be a Skywalker link in the last film — maybe that’s just via Kylo now.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I get what you’re saying and have already thought of that. Is that really addressed in the FILMS, though? Doesn’t it seem a tad out of sync with expectations if you’re just watching the films?

Doesn’t it feel from the entire vibe of the movie that there’s a statement being made there? It’s not just a few special people with some sort of genetic linkage or predisposition, but “nobodies” (as you say) all over the galaxy are poised to become Jedi in the future?

Felt like a deliberate message and change in direction/emphasis, and it was a tad much to me. And to my friends / family when we all discussed it later.

though in the prequels there is the entire Jedi order and the who school of padewans that Anakin kills, etc. - they all must be force sensitive and weren't all Skywalkers, obviously

As I’ve said many times, I still quite liked the film. This was an eye roll moment for us and one we felt was out of step with the SEVEN FILMS that came before it on this fairly important point. I still hope they dial this back a tad, in emphasis don’t if in no other way. But it’s a movie. There’s only so worked up I could ever get.

can you let some of the darker parts of the internet know about that? You know, the part about not getting that worked up about it

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Fair enough. I guess I took that as Shmi might not have been force sensitive, but Anakin’s “father” must have been... or it skipped a generation. That there is still a bloodline link.

Maybe I just blocked out the prequels to a great extent!!!! I only saw them twice at most.

Maybe it’s the emphasis and presentation of this topic in this film that we reacted to most. Felt like an obvious message/bent to this movie to us. One that didn’t enhance the story.

And I still think there needs to be a Skywalker link in the last film — maybe that’s just via Kylo now.

well, Anakin's "Father" is believed to have been Darth Plageus who created him using the Force

I do agree that there has to be some coming around the a Skywalker in Episode IX as the first 6 movies are really all about them - otherwise this should have been a separate trilogy not parts 7-9 of that storyline (and maybe it is Kylo at the center of it all / the one left standing at the end)

 

[mcjaco]

Just took my 5 1/2 year olds to see. They loved it. After a second viewing, I loved it more. It's what the franchise needed. A kick in the pants, and to send it a new direction.

I love the original trilogy characters, but I find the development of the new characters, particularly Kylo, very interesting.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

though in the prequels there is the entire Jedi order and the who school of padewans that Anakin kills, etc. - they all must be force sensitive and weren't all Skywalkers, obviously

Of course!! Not all Skywalkers, but still some sort of genetic lineage/link... and still somewhat rare. That’s not the vibe I got from the film, though it doesn’t directly say the galaxy is LITTERED with future Jedi, exactly...

can you let some of the darker parts of the internet know about that? You know, the part about not getting that worked up about it

I know, right?!? LOL! I get that fans are passionate... I am big on #fireGimple as a hashtag for Walking Dead these days (!!)... but all things in perspective, folks...

And while some things in TLJ I would personally like to have seen handled differently, I still enjoyed the film overall quite a bit, and some scenes I loved! Still will be in line for the next one, and still will watch this one again. It’s a testament to the strong parts of this film that the weaker parts didn’t even come close to ruining it for me.

 

[Iowamomof4]

That’s one thing I disagree on. I don’t like the egalitarian anyone-can-be-a-Jedi thing. This is the one thing that strikes me as too much of a departure and contradiction. More of a current political statement than something that serves this saga / story.

I’m hoping that her parentage ends up being a lie — that it was a way for Kylo to try to manipulate her, or whatever.

I don’t think that ANY decision should be made for fear that it will look like caving to “fanboys”. Who cares?? What is best for the overall saga — that should guide it and that alone. Perhaps they’ll still stick with this if that’s what they deem best for the story. I hope they don’t.

I don’t think it makes the arc seem directionless at all. I think it can be explained as a manipulation and would be more consistent with the 7 movies that came before it.

I don't think it's "anyone-can-be-a-Jedi", but more like your genetics don't determine whether you are a force user or not. Remember, until Anakin Skywalker came along there were generations of Jedi who were force-users not because of their lineage but because they were just strong in the force. Jedi went out and found these children throughout the galaxy and brought them to the temple to raise them and train them in the Jedi order. Until Anakin and Luke/Leia, being strong in the force had nothing to do with who your parents were. No, Han Solo (for example) could not be trained to use the force. Neither could any other person who was not born force-sensitive. Rey is like the thousands of other Jedi who came before her - just a girl who was born with a special gift. She does happen to be extremely gifted in the force (like Mozart, Einstein, or Michelangelo were gifted in their own way), but otherwise has the gift the same way all these other Jedi were given it before her.

**Note: I am by no means well-versed in Jedi lore and could possibly have mis-stated something here, so please add on or correct as needed.

Edit: I wasn't all caught up on the thread when I posted this, so I see it's been pretty much covered. I'll leave my post, but no need to respond. Cheers!